<borei>
but without (vector mvm-data) it doesn't work
<pjb>
I've got only 10 lines.
<borei>
oh, sorry
<borei>
linbe 10
<borei>
line
<pjb>
a vector is not a matrix.
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<pjb>
(make-array 16) #| --> #(0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0) |# creates a vector of 16 elements, not a matrix (a 2D array).
<borei>
yes
<borei>
gl:uniform-matrix requires vector as last arg
<pjb>
then read the documentation of gl:uniform-matrix where is it?
<borei>
if i replace (vector mvm-data) with just mvm-data
<borei>
getting the following
<borei>
The value 1.0 is not of type ARRAY
<borei>
but mvm-data was created as (mvm-data (make-array 16))
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<pjb>
borei: the question was for a url to the documentation of gl:uniform-matrix. If want some help. Obnviously you cannot read the documentation so we will have to read it for you.
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<borei>
pjb: sorry about it, will return back to it, seems like i missed something
<pjb>
Still no url. If you want us to do all the work, you should pay us. The url, or bitcoins!
<borei>
lol
<pjb>
and now I have to go to an errand. bbl
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<borei>
no no
<borei>
seems like i found issue
<borei>
damn
<borei>
i got stuck with it since yesterday
<pierpa_>
This is called a cliffhanger...
<borei>
and now you just triggered another way to think about problem
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<jackdaniel>
no bitcoins? :c
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<borei>
the problem was gl:uniform-matrix is expecting array of flattened matrices
<borei>
but glUniformMatrix4fv (the documentation i was reading) - just array of float numbers
<borei>
it's not one-to-on matching between cl-opengl and OpenGL
<borei>
thanks for help guys !
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<whoman>
ew, sorry to hear that borei
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<__rumbler31>
borei: good find. maybe make your efforts the subject of a blog post?
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<Shinmera>
borei: Note that you can always use the direct GL functions from the %gl package.
<Shinmera>
borei: Also, as far as I know, gl:uniform-matrix-4/3/2fv also just takes a flat CL array of data.
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<pjb>
count the number of "lisp" companies, multiply by 5.
<pjb>
World wide, I'd guess there are between 60 and 100 companies using lisp. between 300 and 500 CLispers, worldwide.
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<whoman>
i would increase it, there are many hobbiests, unknown bloggers, nonirc users, obscure github projects
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<whoman>
counting up common-lisp.net projects, github.com, gitlab, bitbucket, savannah, ... i would say less than half for sure are not employed for doing lisp , and less so at actual lisp companies
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<Xach>
Ok
<Xach>
fe[nl]ix: I will add it to my todo! Will possibly be done in 7 or 8 hours
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<fe[nl]ix>
thanks
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<fe[nl]ix>
the Github docs say "Users must have repository creation permissions within the receiving organization before they can transfer a repository that they individually own"
<fe[nl]ix>
this seems unduly restrictive to me
<fe[nl]ix>
strange
<fe[nl]ix>
is there an issue tracker for Github itself ?
<Shinmera>
Seems good to me. Otherwise you could just push garbage repositories into other orgs, right?
<fe[nl]ix>
no, the owner would initiate a transfer request
<Shinmera>
Ah, well, that would be even better of course.
<fe[nl]ix>
and the owners of the target org would receive a notification that they can approve or reject that request
<fe[nl]ix>
which is what happens with transfers between two personal accounts
<fe[nl]ix>
when I asked Sunrin Shimura for the ownership of CIM I got an email asking me to approve the transfer
<fe[nl]ix>
and all went ok
<shenghi>
That could, and probably would, still lead to a lot of spam for popular (or unpopular) org owners.
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<Shinmera>
Not any more than filing tons of issues already would.
<fe[nl]ix>
shenghi: that's unfortunately a good point
<jmercouris>
I don't think it would lead to spam, and I think it's a good idea
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<shenghi>
Don't underestimate the collective internet's power to thoroughly abuse otherwise perfectly good ideas.
<shenghi>
Maybe a toggle (default: on) could solve that.
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<fouric>
Not entirely sure if I actually did that right, but the results *appear* to show...624 users with Common Lisp repositories.
<fouric>
(that's obviously only a small fraction of total Lisp users, but if you compare it to the number of developers using other languages (Python, JavaScript) on the same platform then you can at least begin to get *relative* scales)
<shenghi>
That ratio doesn't look good at all :O
<whoman>
time to go on strike
<fouric>
1.5M JS devs ):
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<whoman>
speaking of ratios, though
<whoman>
lispers are generally 10-20 year devs
<whoman>
js devs are like 0-1yr
<fouric>
You could get slightly higher numbers if you settle for "Lisp-family" developers (as opposed to CL), because then you get to include Clojure (9.4K), Scheme (1.5K), and Racket (1.5K).
<whoman>
js devs get fresh idea from teacher and markets it on their parents money, lispers are more like nerd monks
<whoman>
i thought elisp was the highest on github? =P
<fouric>
Yes, although I think that more people use it for tweaking Emacs than actual *development*.
<stacksmith>
Good day. Could someone explain the intent and meaning of / // /// in REPL? I am somewhat confounded by (floor 3 1) and '(3 0) both resulting in / of (3 0)...
<jackdaniel>
fe[nl]ix: ping re semaphores
<jackdaniel>
stacksmith: no, both do not result in (3 0)
<jackdaniel>
first results in (3 0) and second one results in ((3 0))
<stacksmith>
right, right...
<jackdaniel>
basically / returns you a list of values returned by last statement typed in repl
<jackdaniel>
try (values 1 2 3 '(4 5))
<whoman>
what! in ielm ?!?
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<jackdaniel>
and / , that will give you (1 2 3 (4 5))
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<jackdaniel>
from other fancy stuff try typing: (let () -) ; in repl
<jackdaniel>
and try + (which returns last form typed in repl)
<stacksmith>
jackdaniel: so it's for reaching multiple values?
<jackdaniel>
? yes
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<jackdaniel>
/ ? yes
<stacksmith>
Ok. I think I was just confusled by repeatedly hitting / - which of course makes sense.
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<Xach>
heh
<pjb>
Try: (values / /) ; repeatitively.
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<whoman>
try (setq nil t) ; justonce
<pjb>
whoman: nil is a constant variable. CL implementation should signal an error.
<whoman>
maybe it was in elisp this happened to me.. =P
<pjb>
all the CL I have installed on this system do.
<stacksmith>
The value of / is a list of the most recent values that were printed... Do they really mean vaules returned from eval?
<pjb>
whoman: this is #lisp, not ##lisp.
<pjb>
whoman: perhaps you could upgrade emacs-cl which has bitrotten, and try in it?
<Xach>
stacksmith: in the REPL it is equivalent.
<jackdaniel>
stacksmith: it is REPL-only thing, you can't depend on it anywhere else
<jackdaniel>
unless you explicitly program it
<Xach>
it flows from E to P to /
<whoman>
um pjb this is #lisp not ##lisp
<Xach>
or maybe somewhere else
<pjb>
But notice that it implies that / // /// + ++ +++ * ** *** and - are declared special!
<pjb>
So if you use those variables in your program, you get only dynamic variables.
<pjb>
On the other hand, by default (let ((% 'foo) (^ 'bar)) '(% ^ are lexical variables)).
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<stacksmith>
pjb: yes, having a hard time imagining when binding these makes sense...
<stacksmith>
I suppose you could 'borrow' the REPL for a bit...
<pjb>
(let* ((a 42) (b 33) (- (- a b))) (format t "The difference is ~A" -))
<pjb>
Since you can use almost anything to name variables, there's no reason why not use it when it make sense.
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<stacksmith>
pjb: Sure. I meant binding in a meaningful to the REPL way.
<pjb>
You can have variables named x^2+2x+3, 3n, <, +, et.c
<pjb>
Well, if you cannot call the REPL itself, there's indeed no point to bind those variables.
<pjb>
And even if you can call the REPL, it probably has its own binding, so yours will be shadowed.
<pjb>
You'd have to have an open REPL, like com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.interactive:rep
<pjb>
But notice that com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.interactive:repl doesn't actually bind them, rep calls %rep that sets them.
<pjb>
So it would make sense to (let (* ** *** + ++ +++ / // /// -) (repl) (use-history-variable-after-repl)).
<stacksmith>
pjb: yes, thanks, I saw that. It makes no sense to bind them, as they need to expire in a natural way.
<whoman>
sum long sim bulls
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<stacksmith>
Did the old Lisp Machine place less emphasis on 'printing' in the REPL? Given the closer relationship to sexps and structured editing I can envision a REPL that is mostly an evaluator that returns sexps that can be manipulated more directly, for instance.
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<pjb>
stacksmith: with presentations I guess.
<stacksmith>
I guess I am trying to figure out if converting to and from text was always the case...
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<jackdaniel>
stacksmith: in slime you have return values being presentations
<jackdaniel>
try to right-click on the object - you'll see you can for instance inspect it
<stacksmith>
jackdaniel: yeah, it's pretty weak and makes me wonder if it's a lame attempt at something much nicer.
<stacksmith>
Like internal support for operating on forms directly.
<jackdaniel>
I wouldn't call it lame given it used different language
<jackdaniel>
I'm constantly suprised how far slime got
<jackdaniel>
but yes, this is mimicing of presentations
<stacksmith>
Well, no disrespect intended, it's pretty amazing. But...
<jackdaniel>
presentations have objects underneath, not forms
<stacksmith>
I always feel like I am just getting a tease.
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<jackdaniel>
of course object may be a form, but you know what I mean
<stacksmith>
yeah...
<stacksmith>
I often wish that forms had a little more substance.
<jackdaniel>
if you wish to tinker with presentations, check out mcclim
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<stacksmith>
I love the idea of mcclim, but in practice I find it hard to look at, especially the way fonts are antialiased. Although I haven't seen it in a year or so...
<jackdaniel>
PRs are welcome ,)
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<stacksmith>
I have a pretty nice minimal implementation of XCB and FT2 rendering really nice text in X - I've been meaning to see how hard it's to add a backend...
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<stacksmith>
I know it's a little antithetical in not being pure Lisp, but it sure looks good and any machine that has X has the libs.
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<didi>
Do people use DOLIST's tags? I was thinking of making my DOOBJECTS more like DOLIST, but I don't remember even using the tags.
<didi>
s/even/ever
<didi>
Go tags, I mean. Maybe making (return ...) work would be useful.
<jackdaniel>
didi: for the sole reason that "DO" constructs usually have implicit tagbody is a good argument to add it in your macro
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<didi>
jackdaniel: Hum. I see.
<jackdaniel>
"least suprising thing to do" principle
<didi>
Right.
<jackdaniel>
notice the pun, I did put DO in there
<didi>
:-)
<jackdaniel>
(ah, missed occasion to stack pun on pun, I should have said "I didi put DO in there" ;-)
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<jmercouris>
fouric: interesting, thanks for the idea
<jmercouris>
could be a good proxy measure
<jmercouris>
unfortunately we do not know what percentage of lisp users are using github, as many of them are using gitlab it seems
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<whoman>
whoman | counting up common-lisp.net projects, github.com, gitlab, bitbucket, savannah, ... i would say less than half for sure are not employed for doing lisp , and less so at actual lisp companies
<whoman>
secret military work
<whoman>
unpublished academic stuff
<whoman>
too many unknowns, like trying to count all species of bats
<jackdaniel>
given you have the precise number, what would you do with it?
<whoman>
autocad users, gimp script-fu; i would count those kind of things even being non-CL but they are engineers and artists who might be awesome at coding with sexp without even realising, and if set down with a CL REPL may be quite surprising
<whoman>
hehe. good point
<bjorkintosh>
one would tweet the precise number.
<bjorkintosh>
duh!
<fouric>
jackdaniel: wikipedia doesn't seem to be giving me a page on the type of "presentations" that you're describing
<jmercouris>
I don't think knowing the exact number is very important, but having a good estimate is
<fouric>
Do you have a link to a document I could read?
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<jmercouris>
you can see whether the community is growing or shrinking and track your efforts to increase it
<whoman>
and accounting someone just giving up on lisp or losing his hands/eyes/life, or someone just tripping on a rock on the street and seeing an akward symbol that looks like a lambda that his subconscious relates to later at home and he finds CL ....
<epony>
calendar note: Wed Mar 14 LISP introduced, 1960
<whoman>
why not just always increase efforts to increase, bountifully ? be fruitful and multiply
<phoe>
fouric: CLIM2 spec is awesome.
<jmercouris>
epony: happy lisp day!
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<fouric>
:DDD
<epony>
happy
<whoman>
whoa
<jmercouris>
whoman: where are you going with this?
<fouric>
why celebrate pi day when you could celebrate something better
<epony>
I dream of a lispmachine
<jmercouris>
I don't see what youre trying to say exactly
<fouric>
lambda is a prettier letter anyway
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<fouric>
phoe: On that recommendation, I'll add it to my reading list. Thank you again!
<phoe>
fouric: <3
<whoman>
jmercouris: response to "you can see whether the community is growing or shrinking and track your efforts to increase it "
<fouric>
phoe: (< 3)
<whoman>
why would you stop efforts knowing its "big enough" or "increasing at an acceptable rate" ?
<jmercouris>
whoman: I know what you are responding to, I just don't see what you're saying
<jmercouris>
whoman: It's not about stopping at some set point, it is about tracking the efficacy of your method
<whoman>
alright, let me elaborate
<jmercouris>
if you know the growth rate, and you know what you've been doing, then you can determine what the ratio of effort/growth rate *might* be
<whoman>
how would knowing how much there is, affect the efforts to increasing that?
<whoman>
does making money get affectd by how much someone has, actually ?
<jmercouris>
we don't have infinity resources, so we must choose the most efficient path
<epony>
wikipedia page argues lisp first appeared 1958, 60 years ago, so the calendar note may be off a bit
<whoman>
ohh, like analytics
<whoman>
thats a bit like herding sheep or seeding clouds i think. not an ethical art
<jackdaniel>
jmercouris: OK, let me give you two number and tell me, how different your behavior will be: there is 1000 active CL programmers vs there is 100000 active CL programmers
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<jmercouris>
jackdaniel: I am not going to change my behavior, I am only interested in measuring it
<whoman>
and of all lang communities, i think lisp would be the least susceptible to that kind of practice
<jackdaniel>
jmercouris: all measurement should have a goal, otherwise it might be perceived as a wasted effort
<jmercouris>
jackdaniel: given this initial value, I will not change my behavior, I want to know the measuring technique
<jmercouris>
which *may* be a modifier to my future behavior
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* jackdaniel
doesn't understand, but good luck with figuring the actual numbers
<whoman>
chasing echoes
<whoman>
lets have a global registrar for officially licensed CL users, from grade 1 to 4
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<whoman>
we can devise the tests and trials for G1-G4 license
<jackdaniel>
better, lets make an exam which certifies to use lisp (and without the license it can't be practicioned)
<jmercouris>
Like a guild?
<stacksmith>
Yuck!
<jackdaniel>
then I'll be able to move to some other language with clear concious ,)
<fouric>
Sure, and then when the Haskellers take over, they'll have part of their hit-list pre-made for them /s
<whoman>
then we can subdivide those levels into "percentage of symbol usage" and "application of design patterns" and "repl marksmanship" to get real accurate numbers
<jackdaniel>
conscience*
<whoman>
hehe
<phoe>
and then sell the certs for $699
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<stacksmith>
Don't forget to register gender and race on the application for certification.
<jmercouris>
I don't know, I wouldn't be that opposed to a guild
<whoman>
thumb print
<jmercouris>
though I probably wouldn't even make the cut
<phoe>
jmercouris: I tried to make a guild once
<phoe>
it died
<oleo>
lol
<fouric>
rip
<jmercouris>
I've often felt that "programmer" should be a protected term like "engineer" or something
<whoman>
i would feel like i belong to something larger than myself
<jackdaniel>
enough is enough I suppose, that should land on #lispcafe ;]
<stacksmith>
I am an artist, man!
<phoe>
whoman: I belong to something larger than myself, it's called #lisp
<whoman>
what about "hacker", "coder" television programs, radio programs, education programs...
<whoman>
programming is not necessarily a righteous term like Knight =)
<stacksmith>
The term 'Hacker' has been thoroughly screwed by media.
<fouric>
^^
<whoman>
phoe: yep. tongue in cheek i think is the term here
<whoman>
what about hippy? we can just macrofy english
<whoman>
lets bring lisp into spoken language then no one has a chance
<jackdaniel>
seriously, I mean it, please move this discussion to #lispcafe
<fouric>
^^
<fouric>
whoman: you'd enjoy being in #lispcafe anyway,
<whoman>
ah sorry i didnt see that
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<didi>
`(block nil (iterate-on-objects (lambda (,x) (tagboy ,@body)) ,objects)) did the trick.
<didi>
Although now I have to be careful with changing the definition of `iterate-on-objects'. Oh well.
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<didi>
Hum, DO* also have result-form. I should address that.
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<stacksmith>
didi: I like 'tagboy'!
<didi>
Hihi. Sorry, `tagbody'.
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<fouric>
How would one give a macro two different names? You can do (setf (symbol-function 'foo) (symbol-function 'bar)) but SYMBOL-MACRO doesn't appear to be a thing...
<phoe>
but EVAL needs to do a thing called "minimal compilation" on the code that it is meant to evaluate. this minimal compilation involves macroexpansion.
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<stacksmith>
"How a compound form is processed depends on whether it is classified as a special form, a macro form, a function form, or a lambda form."
<epony>
I think that's about all the calendaring I had to do today. Thank you for the attention.
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<didi>
OK, now with ( ...&optional result-form). So lispy :-).
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<didi>
In `dolist', I wonder why `var' is in the scope of `result-form' if it will be NIL anyway.
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<stacksmith>
Probably for consistency again. It would be weird for list-form to be in-scope and result-form to be out. I think.
<didi>
stacksmith: It doesn't include list-form tho.
<didi>
"The scope of the binding of var does not include the list-form, but the result-form is included."
<stacksmith>
right, I was thinking of the body...
<didi>
Oh, OK.
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<pjb>
What's funny is that it's not necessarily the same variable either.
<pjb>
Because "It is implementation-dependent whether dolist establishes a new binding of var on each iteration or whether it establishes a binding for var once at the beginning and then assigns it on any subsequent iterations."
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<pjb>
ccl has two let form with that variable, one in the body, and one for the result form.
<stacksmith>
Hmm. I suppose it's technically inside the iteration logic...
<didi>
pjb: Same for SBCL.
<pjb>
So (dolist (x '(1 2 3) x)) results in a warning about an unused variable x (in the body) :-)
<pjb>
s/results/signals/
<didi>
(... (let ((x nil)) x result-form))
<pjb>
declare ignorable x
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<pjb>
I guess the point is to give the result-form a temp variable…
<didi>
I guess it can't be ignored because result-form might want to poke it.
<pjb>
Or just to be compatible with some historical dolist macro.
<vtomole>
How do I do file io in quicklisp? When I try to open and close a file outside my local-project directory, I get " There is no applicable method for the generic function #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION SB-GRAY::PCL-CLOSE (2)> when called with arguments (NIL)."