<jasom>
z3t0: what is the maximum latency you can tolerate?
<jasom>
I'm not aware of any common-lisp implementation that can keep GC pauses under, say, 100ms reliably. However, if you don't allocate in your latency-sensitive sections, then GC pauses don't matter
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<jasom>
z3t0: that being said, there is nothing that makes it impossible to build a lisp with very short GC pauses, it's just that optimizing for short pauses isn't something anyone has done.
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<z3t0>
jasom: it hasn't been defined yet. I think mroe than maximum latency, we are aiming for predictable latency
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<fe[nl]ix>
jasom: ABCL has two short-pause GCs by virtue of the JVM
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<White_Flame>
Oladon: y0
<White_Flame>
z3t0: reducing GC latency also slows down main-line code, so that would increase your responsiveness of your code regardless of added GC latency
<White_Flame>
*reduce the responsiveness
<White_Flame>
of course, that comes in to play when the workload per event is fairly high
<White_Flame>
and some percentage increase in runtime cost would be unacceptable
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<Oladon>
White_Flame: I'm hoping for some tips on figuring out what my parser should output. I'm following up on that BBCode/Commonmark parser from last time (thanks again for your version!)
<White_Flame>
sure
<White_Flame>
I haven't gotten around to packaging mine up, really busy with other stuff :-/
<Oladon>
No worries. It's been good practice :)
<Oladon>
I'm using spinneret, so technically I could probably output spinneret pseudo-DOM... but that seems kinda specific to this use case'
<Oladon>
-'
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<White_Flame>
one of the bigger things with bbcode is that you have to allow unbalanced brackets & tags to go through unmodifieed
<White_Flame>
(or at least, that's the most user-helpful failure case. If you eat unbalanced contents, the user has no clue what went wrong)
<White_Flame>
[a][b]foo[/a][/b] has sometimes been supported in various boards, too
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<Oladon>
Yeah, I decided not to try to support that last bit for now
<Oladon>
My in-order combinator allows for ignoring incomplete/unbalanced stuff
<Oladon>
Just not really sure if I should shoot for alists as output, or a list of string + DOMish AST, or what
<Oladon>
And if there are any good arguments one way or another, or if it's pretty much just preference
<White_Flame>
for this case, I'd say a list of terms, where a term is either a string or (<tag> . <terms>)
<Oladon>
hmm
<Oladon>
What about complex tags that take arguments, like [url=title]...[/url] or [color=red]?
<White_Flame>
ah, then (<tag> <params> . <terms>) :)
<Oladon>
Hmm
<White_Flame>
always have a place for the params, even if it's often nil
<White_Flame>
or make a 3-element struct the more positional you get. But it will always contain a list of terms which can nest tags beneath it
<z3t0>
White_Flame: what is mainlinecode?
<Oladon>
Makes sense... what's the benefit of doing (x y . z) as opposed to just (x y z)?
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<White_Flame>
just preference really
<White_Flame>
whether it's 1 list ith header stuff, vs an explicit sublist
<White_Flame>
since a cdr can be treated as a separate list, it's handy
<Oladon>
Isn't the cdr of (1 2 . 3) going to be (2 . 3)? (I think I'm missing something.)
<White_Flame>
(:b () "Bold text with an " (:i () "italicized") " word")
<White_Flame>
vs
<White_Flame>
(:b () ("Bold text with an " (:i () "italicized") " word"))
<Oladon>
Ahh
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<White_Flame>
and of course that translates easily to html
<White_Flame>
since the body is a list of stuff like that
<Oladon>
Yeah, that makes sense. Hang on, though... which one are you espousing?
<White_Flame>
I would default to the 1st one. But the latter is useful if you add in more peer lists than the 2 that exists
<White_Flame>
again, as it becomes more positional, you probably want to move to structs
<Oladon>
Gotcha. What would your access look like for the various parts of the first one, and what do you mean by positional?
<White_Flame>
instead of having a list of 7 things in deliberate order
<Oladon>
Oh, you mean if I end up having (x y z aa bb . zz)
<Oladon>
gotcha
<Oladon>
yeah
<White_Flame>
each thing in the list has some position by protocol, but unenforced by anything. THe struct keeps tract of what is where by name, which is handy when there's more than just a few associated things
<White_Flame>
yep
<White_Flame>
and defstruct can actually manage lists for you, if you need it kept as a single list of terms in meaningful positions
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<White_Flame>
(defstruct (foo (:type list)) ...)
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<Oladon>
I haven't done much with defstruct; probably a good time to explore it
<Oladon>
CLOS seems like overkill for this :P
<White_Flame>
yeah, I use methods here & there, but almost never defclass
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* White_Flame
is probably in the minority on that one
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<Oladon>
Yeah, I like it for a lot of stuff :)
<Oladon>
Alright, so tangentially-related question for you... how in the world am I supposed to implement an escape character? :P
<Oladon>
(I should probably not be thinking about that yet, but c'est la vie...)
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<White_Flame>
hmm, for what?
<White_Flame>
unescaped brackets are plain brackets in output; they don't require escaping
<Oladon>
Good point...
<Oladon>
But then it seems like my parser is going to have to backtrack
<White_Flame>
yep
<Oladon>
Ah.
<Oladon>
That's unfortunate.
<White_Flame>
well, it's just trimming output and returning to a point in the input string/stream, so it's really not bad
<Oladon>
Hmm... I can't quite visualize the path forward from where I am. Maybe I'm in the wrong place. Today I have, for example, (in-order (bbcode-open-tag) (one-or-more (anything-but ([))) (bbcode-matching-close-tag))
<Oladon>
(Of course, the middle bit is what needs to change)
<Oladon>
(This doesn't support nested tags either :))
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<Oladon>
Hmm, (in-order (bbcode-open-tag) (one-or-more (any (bbcode-matching-close-tag) (anything)))) works
<Oladon>
But it ain't purty ;)
<White_Flame>
it's also the first thing that works, which is a good model to then make the purty version from
<Oladon>
Heh, fair
<White_Flame>
since you then know the details that you need to get together in a better way
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<Oladon>
Aight. I should log out. Appreciate your help this evening!
<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<Oladon>
Morning beach! And night to you as well!
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<ldb>
good afternnon
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<beach>
Hello ldb.
<ldb>
hello beach
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<ldb>
(terpri)
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<Elronnd>
why do some lisps (1.5?, emacs) use setq, some (cl) use setf, and some use set! (scheme)? What do the 'q' and 'f' mean?
<beach>
q means quote.
<beach>
In the beginning there was SET that evaluated both arguments.
<beach>
I am not sure what F means, but it is used for side-effecting operations. SETF is more versatile than SETQ because it can set places other than variables.
<beach>
Common Lisp still has SETQ and it is a special operator.
<beach>
SETF is a macro that is then expanded to simpler operators.
<Elronnd>
ah, neat
<Elronnd>
why does scheme change to set!?
<beach>
Scheme just wanted to have a more direct indication for side effects and predicates, so it uses ! and ?
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<beach>
And I don't know how versatile Scheme set! is. This is a Common Lisp channel after all.
<ldb>
according to Lisp Machine Manual, setf means set `form'
<ldb>
and Scheme prefer to use ! to indicate procedures with side effect
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<beach>
And the reason we don't use SET anymore is that modern Lisps want the compiler to do more work, so that efficient code can be generated. For that to work, the name of variables must be known at compile time. If a new variable name can magically appear, say with (SET (READ) 234), then there is little the compiler can do.
<Elronnd>
(eval `(set ,(read) 234))
<Elronnd>
s/set/setf/
<beach>
What is that example supposed to show?
<Elronnd>
that a new variable name can magically appear
<beach>
In a modern Lisp like Common Lisp, EVAL does not have access to the lexical environment.
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<beach>
So (let ((x 0)) (eval `(setf ,(read) 234))) does not influence X even if that is the symbol returned by READ.
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<beach>
It will affect the special variable X if there is such a thing.
<beach>
Another way of putting it is that the form given to EVAL is evaluated in the global environment, also known as the "null lexical environment".
<beach>
Common Lisp was designed so that a compiler can generate fast code, if written the right way.
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<beach>
As opposed to languages like Python that do not even pretend that it is possible to generate fast code.
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<ldb>
if you'd like to hear a longer explaination on where does setf from, there was a SETFQ function that could alter a value produced by function, later abbreviated and adapted to Lisp Machine's SETF
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<ldb>
and that was BBN-LISP
<beach>
Elronnd: The Common Lisp standard is a very impressive piece of work. It is clear that it was designed by a bunch of people who are both smart and knowledgeable. That's why it is sad to see individuals without sufficient knowledge trying to "improve" the standard, or even design a "better" language.
<terpri>
schemes often have a method of extending set!, similar to setf, as with (info "(guile) Procedures with Setters")
<beach>
terpri: I think the key words here are "schemeS" and "often", meaning there is no standard.
<terpri>
not standardized as of r5rs, iirc; there's probably an srfi for it, and it might be included in some form in r6rs or r7rs
<terpri>
yeah
<beach>
Elronnd: For example, it would be tempting for some of those people to give EVAL access to the lexical environment, thereby making most compiler optimizations impossible.
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<terpri>
islisp has setf, but it's not arbitrarily extensible (http://islisp.org/docs/islisp-v23.pdf p35, place-form operators are limited to basic getters like car &c., and extensible only in that it can be used with slot reader functions applied to instances, iiuc)
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<terpri>
...i'm completely wrong actually, you can define (setf ...) generic functions apparently
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<vegai>
so quicklisp is the contemporary way to install library dependencies, right?
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<beach>
Well, to install the libraries. Quicklisp handles the dependencies.
<vegai>
does it (or some other system) support lock files?
<vegai>
dunno if that's actually a required thing in cl, given the stability of most libraries
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<beach>
What would such support do?
<phoe>
you can pin libraries by downloading them to local-projects
<phoe>
and setting the git repo to the version you want
<ahungry>
npm gets a lot of grief for node_modules/ being huge, but it is a nice convenience where my project could depend on a library at version 1.2.3, and a dependency of mine may depend on that same library at version 2.3.4, although it also lends itself well to constant backwards compatability breakage (much more than I've seen in other communities)
<ahungry>
usually the lock files maintain the exact versions for the entire dependency of dependency tree
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<shka_>
oh gosh, usocket does not always raise defined conditions
<beach>
shka_: Conditions are not "raised" in Common Lisp. They are "signaled".
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<shka_>
beach: oh, that makes it completely fine!
<phoe>
shka_: example?
<shka_>
moment, i have a long running task boiling down to sending requests with dexador and suddenly a cl:error (not a subclass) out of the usocket
<shka_>
i forgot to check the stack trace though :/
<shka_>
silly me
<phoe>
what was in the stack trace?
<shka_>
don't remember precisely, but i recall usocket at the top
<shka_>
but it couldn't be
<phoe>
huh
<shka_>
nothing in the usocket signals condition with a description like this
<shka_>
so perhaps i was mistaken
<shka_>
i should have save the stack trace
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<flip214>
is dash or slash the current convention?
<phoe>
flip214: you forgot about "foobar.test"
<phoe>
slash happens only if both ASDF systems reside in the same ASD file
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<flip214>
phoe: so there is no convention?
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<phoe>
flip214: I've seen all three
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<phoe>
I have a personal tase for "foobar.test" that also introduces the singular/plural aspect
<phoe>
s/tase/taste/
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<flip214>
Using fiveam I see a strange behaviour. Without a (DECLARE (IGNORE ...)) I get an "unused var" warning and a failure; with the DECLARE the tests succeeds.
<flip214>
PERF-PCT evaluated to 1.4643059 which is not <= to 1.5
<phoe>
huh!
<flip214>
is the error for a (fiveam:is (<= 1.5 perf-pct))
<flip214>
grrr, now (after changing the calculation a bit) I get the error even _with_ DECLARE. PERF-PCT evaluated to 0.94503224 which is not <= to 1.5
<phoe>
well, (<= 1.5 0.94) is false, so the test seems to work
<phoe>
I don't know about the DECLARE IGNORE thing though
<flip214>
phoe: arrrg, yeah, just found it out as well!
<flip214>
the text string produced by FIVEAM is bad
<phoe>
oh, yes, the arguments are flipped
<phoe>
(pun (not) intended)
<flip214>
phoe: thanks! ;) writing an issue
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<phoe>
I assume that fiveam expects some sort of equality test there
<phoe>
and that's an imperfect heuristic, as you just found out
<phoe>
and I think it may make fireworks with all sorts of asymmetric binary operators, such as TYPEP
<flip214>
phoe: (is (<= 1.1 1.4 0.9)) is less intelligent and works ;)
<iissaacc>
Does anyone know, if I have quicklisp and ultralisp dists registered in quicklisp, if its possible to specify what dist to install a package from?
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<iissaacc>
cl-json seems to be broken on ultralisp and thats where quicklisp is trying to install it from
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<Xach>
iissaacc: you can set a preference in fairly fine detail
<iissaacc>
Xach: how would one go about this?
<iissaacc>
thanks for the software btw i assume u are the eponymous xach
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<Xach>
iissaacc: one option is ql-dist::(setf (preference (find-system-in-dist "cl-json" (dist "ultralisp"))) (get-universal-time))
<Xach>
oops
<Xach>
change that from ultralisp to quicklisp
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<Xach>
also, odd that ultralisp uses cl-json bundled with qooxlisp, which is surely out of date.
<iissaacc>
yeah i feel like the best course of action is just to uninstall ultralisp
<iissaacc>
thanks for that tho, copied into emacs notes
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<Posterdati>
is anyone reviewing gsll and cffi to work under sbcl on OpenBSD?
<flip214>
Is there a way to ensure that some function will not be optimized away? I'd like to keep a FILL-SEQUENCE in, even if the sequence is only dynamic extent and not used later on
<beach>
Functions in the global environment will not be optimized away.
<jackdaniel>
if it is a local function, you may force its escape
<Bike>
fill-sequence is your own function? it's unlikely the compiler is willing to optimize away a call to a possibly redefinable function. are you observing it doing so?
<flip214>
I'm sorry, I don't understand you. I want to keep the _call_ of the function in, making sure that it's not eliminated as dead-code or so.
<flip214>
Bike: I want to destroy a secret key in a vector; and C has a history of optimizing things (like a memset) away, so I thought I'd better ask.
<Bike>
ah, right, like that bzero stuff
<Bike>
to be really sure you'll probably have to check the disassembly, and then if it's still removed... well... talk to the implementation devs probably
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<flip214>
so there's no cross-platform way, like a (LOCALLY (OPTIMIZE (space 0) (debug 3) (safety 100))) or so? thanks
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<Bike>
notinline is the closest thing, i think
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<Bike>
i would be surprised if a compiler optimized away a call to a notinline function. assuming that by "dead code" you mean that the result isn't used etc, rather than that the code is unreachable
<Bike>
notinline tells the compiler it can't assume anything about the function, essentially; so perhaps it has some visible side effects, so it can't be optimized away
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<chewb>
hello, i am learning Common Lisp using Portacle
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<chewb>
afair i can select previous command i inputed into SLIME REPL by clicking cursor on it and RET
<chewb>
but i cant do it now, i get message "Buffer is read only|
<chewb>
why?
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<beach>
chewb: Try M-p instead.
<beach>
chewb: I use M-r a lot to search for the previous form of a certain kind that I typed.
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<flip214>
Bike: yeah, thanks... still, this is one not-so-nice part of a SSC. I thought about doing (funcall 'fill-sequence vec) - that can't be inlined or optimized away unless (setf symbol-function) etc. is gone, too - but that "feels" unclean and non-optimal
<flip214>
CL is old enough that there should be a optimization setting for that ;)
<Bike>
declaring notinline is basically the same as doing that funcall
<flip214>
okay, thanks a lot!
<Bike>
no problem
<flip214>
ah, and I meant FILL when I wrote FILL-SEQUENCE
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<chewb>
thank you beach Alt-p works
<chewb>
do you know how to quickly disable paredit?
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<Bike>
M-x disable-paredit-mode, i think?
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