<ysionneau>
I've been asked this question but I only ever used Kicad
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<wpwrak>
whitequark: thanks ! posted some fped propaganda :)
<wpwrak>
ysionneau: i looked at gEDA many years ago and found it not very pleasant, with schematics full of hidden fields, contradictions in the standard parts library, and so on. not sure how it has evolved since then.
<whitequark>
the official reason is "it lost electrical power"
<whitequark>
how exactly do you engineer a train so that it derails when it loses power?
<pcercuei>
the brakes needed electricity?
<whitequark>
it didn't crash into anything, it just derailed
<whitequark>
so it didn't have to brake
<pcercuei>
well without brakes it could have reached its dangerous speed limit and then derail
<whitequark>
well
<whitequark>
you have: 1. a lot of kinetic energy 2. a device for transforming kinetic energy into electrical energy
<whitequark>
I cannot see a good reason for brakes to not work in *any* circumstances, except maybe damage to signal backbone (apparently not the case)
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<ysionneau>
hum as I understand it in a French article, the train pulled the brakes but then the wagons (?) bumped into one another's back
<ysionneau>
and I guess that's what caused some parts to derail
<larsc>
thats how it also looks like in the picture
<DocScrutinizer05>
when russian trains are built in a way so brekes fail when *standard* energy (of whatever form) drops out, then actually *kudos* to those russian engineers
<DocScrutinizer05>
brakes*
<DocScrutinizer05>
I however guess it's just the usual PEBKAC_syndrome. When the cars bumbed one into the other, somebody been extremely lazy at coupling them, to start with
<ysionneau>
I guess if the first car brakes too strong, it's hard to avoid the bumping problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
every train on this globe has bakes that work on the whole traon, not only on first car/engine
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<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: 20 dead, 120 injured. allegedly loss of electric power caused emergency brake to kick in. (source: german TV)
<DocScrutinizer05>
20+ even
<kyak>
wow, again, so many experts here
<kyak>
making conclusions before investigation ended
<ysionneau>
that's what we do :)
<ysionneau>
DocScrutinizer05 forgot to mention that he is the source of german TV
<DocScrutinizer05>
kyak: aha
<kyak>
--)
<DocScrutinizer05>
mind to get more specific who made conclusions? and which ones
<kyak>
тщ
<kyak>
no
<DocScrutinizer05>
thought as much
<wpwrak>
train crashes can be tricky. see for example the regional train that crashed into a departing train in paris a few years ago.
<wpwrak>
multiple brake systems, subtle bypassed
<DocScrutinizer05>
ranting and bashing also can be tricky. somebody may call you out on your claims
<wpwrak>
well, i read quite a lot about accidents and their investigation. and i see of course the news. what the public thinks has happened is almost never what the investigation finds :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
but then, we're meanwhile used to it, no?
<kyak>
wpwrak: and both are often equally far away from truth
<wpwrak>
i guess it's people easily overestimating their ability to analyze complex systems they don't really understand. like the layperson "diagnosing" some PC problems.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm just in the mood to deal with such general unbacked bashing. Coming straight from a tmo thread that had nothing but bashing and spreading nonsense
<wpwrak>
kyak: depends a bit. i think in aviation chances are quite good for an unbiased investigation. not always and not everywhere, but i'd say in most cases.
<kyak>
wpwrak: i thought you were talkign about that tv show :)
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: rough first council day ? ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
and when somebody claims he knows the truth and all other chnnel participants ate idiots, then that's just what I need to make my day
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/ate /are /
<qi-bot>
DocScrutinizer05 meant: "and when somebody claims he knows the truth and all other chnnel participants are idiots, then that's just what I need to make my day"
<wpwrak>
kyak: air crash investigation / mayday ? yeah, they sum up things fairly well. but the reports usually get much deeper, especially those from NTSB.
<DocScrutinizer05>
when such claims like "making conclusions" are not even backed up by a single rationale when asked for, then I'm in brilliant mood to consider actions
<kyak>
i've read the report from Ariane 5 crash, it was very interesting
<wpwrak>
kyak: as a starter, the final report to the air alaska crash (went into the pacific before LAX after increasingly catastrophic control problems) is more gripping than many a novel - if you're an engineer and can appreciate the depth of their investigation: http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2002/AAR0201.pdf
<DocScrutinizer05>
since I *love* arrogant belittling comments
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: we know that well enough ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
just waiting for the next one
<kyak>
yep.. that's serious
<wpwrak>
heh, ariane5 page went off the map ;-)
<wpwrak>
apparently too much truth in there :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
don't do that please, won't help
<kyak>
and the last words were "ah here we go."
<kyak>
pretty sad, i'd say
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<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: re german TV: sounds like exactly what the preliminary investigation says
<DocScrutinizer05>
thought as much
<DocScrutinizer05>
they usually don't do own investigations on such news
<whitequark>
well duh
<DocScrutinizer05>
usually such stuff comes in via reuters or whatever news agency, and then they ask their moscow correspondent if there's any additional info available "at location"
<whitequark>
itar-tass in this case
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<DocScrutinizer05>
though they tend to take itar-tass with a grain of salt
<whitequark>
oh do they?
<DocScrutinizer05>
usually they will want a second source, just in case.... ;-)
<whitequark>
as far as I know (source: a bunch of journalists in moscow whom I trust), itar-tass is a very decent source
<DocScrutinizer05>
if they can't find a second source, they clearly state it's "accorsing to itar-tass"
<whitequark>
or interfax, they'd be the best you find there
<whitequark>
the others are just "broken phone" apart of those mostly
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, I might mix up itar-tass with sth else. Probably I do
<whitequark>
rt?
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's no news agency, is it?
<whitequark>
well I dunno what your news would take as source :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway, trying to get away from that damn kbd, for good now
<whitequark>
I'm fairly sure rt does their own reports, at least I've seen their vans
<whitequark>
they're horribly biased tho
<whitequark>
you can basically take the exact opposite to find out the truth :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's news agencies and TV/newspaper own reporters. While agencies only sell their stuff to the newspapers and TV stations
<DocScrutinizer05>
reuters is an agency, itar-tass is afaik
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<apelete>
larsc: are you there ?
<larsc>
not really
<apelete>
:)
<apelete>
does that mean you're going away ?
<larsc>
yes
<apelete>
larsc: ok, we'll talk tommorow then
<apelete>
larsc: I was having an issue with the mmc framwork while preparing dma request in advance with pre_req() and post_req() hooks
<apelete>
let's call it a night and talk about it tomorrow
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