marcan changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | General project discussion | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
<tbodt>
at what offset is the initrd? I wanna try dumping it
<bkero>
lol there's some mac address of some random card in there
<bkero>
tbodt: binwalk -e should dump the whole thing
<Shiz>
if you want to discuss this at all, might be useful to do it in -re as per the policy
<Shiz>
license violations or not
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<bkero>
If this is being white-roomed none of us should have even looked at that, let alone discussed it.
<tbodt>
kernel source will probably be posted tomorrow
<davidrysk[m]>
Overall this is awfully sloppy of them.
<Shiz>
well, i agree, nobody should have :)
<Shiz>
this is just drama stuff
<winocm>
good thing i still have two bottles of asahi left somewhere (though i hate the taste of beer)
<marcan>
I'm not interesting in actually REing this, but yeah, I guess technically "binwalk" output should've gone in -re, as much as this ought to be GPL code
<Shiz>
winocm: god i wish that was me
<bkero>
mmmmbeer
<davidrysk[m]>
I’d have expected Corellium of all companies to not play quite this fast and loose with copyright especially at this point but... idk
<marcan>
in DM Chris told me "we won against apple, so that means all of our code is clean"
<clayfreeman>
After catching up with all this... yeah, it's amateur hour for them to behave this way.
<marcan>
that's... not how it works, but he seems to believe it is
<clayfreeman>
I'm even surprised at qwerty - you don't often get second chances at getting licensing right; it's almost an art in perfection, which I bet is exactly why Asahi has the policies that are in place
<marcan>
exactly
<marcan>
*technically* Chris has just lost all rights to ever distribute Linux
<marcan>
... it's just that GPL copyright owners don't usually enforce that
<marcan>
but the text of the license does indeed say there are no automatic second chances
<davidrysk[m]>
That was one of the things that GPLv3 fixed. Also a court might not necessarily accept that argument, but then again a different court might accept it.
<MaxLeiter>
Having been down similar roads, can I suggest just not talking about Corellium unless necessary? Will just breed negative attitudes
<clayfreeman>
It's kinda hard to do that with them throwing shade, MaxLeiter
<marcan>
davidrysk[m]: right, the goal of our policies is to ensure there is no *question* that a court would ever have to decide
<marcan>
it's not just about license compliance, it's about making it *plain and clear* enough that no copyright was violated, even to non-lawyers
<marcan>
because nobody has the money to ask lawyers and go to court :)
<marcan>
so we need to go above and beyond what may be the minimum legal requirements
<davidrysk[m]>
Licensing and copyright is not the kind of thing to play fast and loose with and I kinda fear that their legal troubles are not yet over (in other words I wholly expect to see an appeal, and fair use for their uses might not apply to the uses here, and other cans of worms that require lawyers)
<tbodt>
my understanding of their lawsuit is it was partially dismissed and some of the tougher claims still stand
<_alice>
I don't understand why they see marcan being careful as a personal attack on themselves
<_alice>
careful wrt licensing and auditability
<tbodt>
they still have to defend a DMCA claim for circumventing the boot chain "drm"
<davidrysk[m]>
What I’m saying is that I expect Apple to appeal the dismissal to a higher court and that could go anywhere
<davidrysk[m]>
There is that as well, separately
<davidrysk[m]>
There is also the fact that fair use isn’t exactly well defined. Too many unknowns, too difficult to quantify the risk, better to avoid the risk by setting a strict policy (which is what marcan has done)
<marcan>
bbl, lunchtime
<clayfreeman>
I hope I can catch one of these work streams live - I've had a ton of fun watching the last two
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<aratuk>
Marcan, you need theme music for your YT streams. Maybe the free music archive would be an appropriate source.
<JTL>
he's already adressed *why* doesn't mux music into his streams
<JTL>
aratuk: That being said, maybe a list of music he likes would be interesting? :p
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<clayfreeman>
yeah, I prefer no music
<clayfreeman>
allows me to put on my own
<MaxLeiter>
A web radio with an IRC bot to control is always fun
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<Necrosporus>
So somebody made M1 run Linux before marcan did?
<Necrosporus>
But that's just kernel and initrd with basic shell
<jix>
also, given their latest released sources (which do not support m1 yet), likely in a state that would require significant work to be upstreamable, possibly more work overall than the approach marcan is taking
<jix>
this is based on their linux on jailbroken iphone tech demo they've been working on for quite some time, so they did have a head start time wise, but since that in itself wasn't something that upstream would accept they didn't pay any attention to linux's upstream requirements
<Necrosporus>
I'm wondering if this thing can run on my arm64 SBC
<Necrosporus>
probably not
<Necrosporus>
Unless I pack the initrd of it with kernel from something like armbian
<Necrosporus>
It has dropbear host keys
<Necrosporus>
I'm wondering where did they come from
<Necrosporus>
etc/issue says Project Sandcastle brought to you by Corellium team
* rwhitby
wonders if all this talk about something that's not Asahi Linux should be in -offtopic ? ;-)
<marcan>
Necrosporus: they've been working on this for Ax SoCs for over a year now, so of course porting that work to M1 is easy compared to doing it from scratch
<marcan>
but nothing they've released so far is upstreamable, so at this point their work is not useful
<Necrosporus>
So, does this binary run anyway?
<marcan>
no idea, so far on first look there is a probable macOS copyright violation as well as the GPL issues, so I won't look into it further
<Necrosporus>
How it copyright violation of macOS? Because of broadcom fw?
<marcan>
yes
<Necrosporus>
I guess it's mean to be run from iBoot directly?
<marcan>
I think so
<Necrosporus>
And is it illegal to try to run this thing?
<marcan>
the macOS copyvio thing is a hypothesis based on the fact that I have not found that firmware anywhere else
<marcan>
I don't know
<Necrosporus>
Or only to distribute it?
<marcan>
I am not a lawyer
<marcan>
but at this point, I will wait for their upstream efforts and continue on with our project independently
<marcan>
they've said they will upstream their stuff, and I eagerly await that effort :)
<marcan>
until then, there is nothing for us to gain by following their announcements/releases, so I will continue with my original development approach
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<Necrosporus>
It makes sense. But regarding iPhone linux, I'm wondering if it's going to grow to stage to be actually useable as real main OS rather than tech demo, and perhaps it could make iPhone as good as Nokia N9
<jix>
Necrosporus: that's getting off topic here though
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<Necrosporus>
ok
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<stemnic>
Regarding the topic of GPL compliance I’m curious, currently experiencing what I have been told is malicious compliance where a hardware vendor which has shipped a embedded Linux distribution (Yocto) insists on shipping a CD instead of providing me with a download link with their modified Linux kernel and have used around 3 months now to comply
<stemnic>
(I’m still waiting for it). Can this then be regarded as a violation since there is not a clear “offer” of their source code modification or is still valid even though I need to nag their support for months :P
<jn__>
AFAIK offering the source code on a physical medium (and even collecting a reasonable fee for it) is valid for GPL compliance
<jn__>
i don't know about timing, i.e. how fast a vendor has to respond
<opticron>
I don't remember there being any time limit
<jn__>
stemnic: regarding a written offer: how did you learn about the use of GPL code in their product?
<jn__>
(in any case, perhaps the Software Freedom Conservancy can probably give more accurate advice than i can)
<stemnic>
jn__: opened the product up, saw some uart ports and when connecting to it. From the output I could see that it had a uboot bootloader and used yocto
<jn__>
stemnic: ok, that does sound like no source code offer, which AFAIK is non-compliant
<jn__>
(assuming the product didn't ship with the source code itself, either)
<jn__>
errr, s/perhaps // in my comment above
<stemnic>
jn__: Nop, not any mentions on their website either that I could fine. I'm surprised though if this is not compliant, that would mean that many hardware vendors are doing the same since i have not experienced many who openly give out their modified GPLv2 source code
<stemnic>
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ maybe it's just the fact that many play "lose" with licencing
<dottedmag>
I have bought a Bosch oven and learned that it runs Linux reading the list of software licenses / copyrights enclosed, but that's probably for #asahi-offtopic
<jn__>
i've heard often enough that people had inquire rather persistently before they got gpl compliance out of a vendor
<jn__>
this whole discussion is probably better done in -offtopic
<stemnic>
Yeah your right, can move it over there
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<flying_sausages>
yo what's this thing corellium is claiming to have achieved?
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<flying_sausages>
did they just make their own VM layer or something
<tbodt>
no it is linux running on m1
<tbodt>
it's a port of their previous project sandcastle tech demo
<flying_sausages>
is there a summary of what is referred to as the drama?
<flying_sausages>
civil and all
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<flying_sausages>
just trying to make heads and tails
<j`ey>
just some heated messages back and forth, nothing worth looking over
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<flying_sausages>
fair enough
<j`ey>
they have a fork, linux-sandcastle, that was for running linux on iphones, so it was some kinda port of that to m1
<flying_sausages>
mm ic
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