wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<CodeShark>
SPV is one of those design problem things to look out for in future projects ;)
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<CodeShark>
prunability and aligned incentives to trustlessly outsource succinct proofs are required for anything like that to be practical
<CodeShark>
merkle trees for blocks was a good start...but not a good end :)
<CodeShark>
I should say to trustlessly have succinct proofs produced...not necessarily "outsourced"...too many connotations
<CodeShark>
in certain contexts at least one of the parties clearly has an interest to compute and store proofs relevant to their contracts
<CodeShark>
but if there's a dispute you still have your loaded gun
<CodeShark>
even if the bullet isn't free :)
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<CodeShark>
in the worst of cases you take your case global and win (if you're right)...more costly than settling directly, but the uncooperative party can be held responsible for a good portion if not all of that extra cost.
<CodeShark>
a justice system that relies on cryptographic signatures and witnesses for authorization...and whose interpretation of the law comes down to running computer programs
<CodeShark>
it all relies on strong consensus at the top level, though...this is still a problem
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<leakypat>
So, back to my point about lack of nodes, is it fair to say that centralized and SPV wallets have been created with a view to there being some kind of large scale adoption and these non "Power users" needing something quick and easy to use
<leakypat>
The adoption hasn't happened and so the result has been "power users" have ditched their nodes and are using centralized and SPV solutions because it's easy
<leakypat>
So, a few years ago, all the dudes at my meetup would have been running full nodes, now instead they use breadwallet to buy their beers
<CodeShark>
having each peer validating every single beer purchase on the entire planet doesn't seem like a good idea :p
<leakypat>
Depends on the beer
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<leakypat>
My point being is that centralized wallets (like mine) and SPV wallets have basically disincentive zed power users from running full nodes
<CodeShark>
people who know what they're doing generally keep around a full node or two
<CodeShark>
but that's not most :p
<leakypat>
Yeah, exactly, it's like 20% of Bitcoin enthusiasts or something
<CodeShark>
on the other hand many of these cases are high use high volume cases
<CodeShark>
but still, we're hitting a scalability wall :p
<CodeShark>
it's inevitable
<leakypat>
What cases are high use high volume?
<CodeShark>
nvm :p
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<kanzure>
i really doubt it's 20% of all bitcoin enthusiasts. it would have to be a much lower percentage to match other observed measureguesses.
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<moa>
it's a long september effect .... a smaller and smaller percentage of new users will be full-node 'material'
<moa>
like second law of adoption: the level derp will always increase
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<leakypat>
kanzure: you think lower? By enthusiasts I mean meetup regulars etc.
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<kanzure>
hmm if the original signatures are still necessary then there's not much space saved
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<gmaxwell>
wtf. of course they aren't.
<gmaxwell>
how the heck dould you have extracted that from my message??
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<kanzure>
there's no details either way on that front in your message i think; you pass the inputs to signature verification, but that's the same whether there is a missing intermediate history regardless.
<kanzure>
(more broadly, i am just engaging in the discussion here; i don't think it's a problem with your reply on reddit)
<gmaxwell>
kanzure: I revised it some. :)
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<kanzure>
"Not unlike things in Bitcoin today, but the signatures are combined with O(1) size."
<kanzure>
ah yes that is much more clear
<kanzure>
also: O(1) is very very exciting
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