sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
jb55 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aranjedeath has quit [Quit: Three sheets to the wind]
jb55 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
thrmo1111 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
rmwb_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Belkaar has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
rmwb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has quit [Changing host]
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
wxss has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rmwb has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
rmwb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rmwb has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rmwb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
coinsmurf has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
Pr0t3us has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dabura667 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
dabura667 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
dabura667_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
meshcollider has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
meshcollider has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adamperlow has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
adamperlow has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adamperlow has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
adamperlow has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rmwb has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
adamperlow has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
jephalien has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rmwb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam has quit [Client Quit]
RubenSomsen has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has quit [Changing host]
rmwb has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rmwb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rmwb has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rmwb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rmwb has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rmwb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adamperlow has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RubenSomsen has quit [Quit: Leaving]
legogris has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
legogris has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adamperlow has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
TheSeven has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-wizards
airbreather_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
LeMiner has joined #bitcoin-wizards
airbreather has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
LeMiner2 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
LeMiner is now known as LeMiner2
jtimon has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
davec has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
rmwb has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
mlz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rmwb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rmwb has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rmwb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
molz has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
davec has joined #bitcoin-wizards
davec has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
davec has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rmwb has quit []
anon616 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
anon616 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has quit [Quit: Leaving]
ecurrencyhodler has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw1n_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
davec has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
adamperlow has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adamperlow has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
davec has joined #bitcoin-wizards
shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards
shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
daszorz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit []
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aaronvan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
vicenteH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
vicenteH` has joined #bitcoin-wizards
vicenteH has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
vicenteH` is now known as vicenteH
rockhouse has quit [Quit: Leaving ... but you never know maybe I come back!]
rockhouse has joined #bitcoin-wizards
meshcollider has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
thrmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
meeh has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
meeh has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has quit [Quit: Leaving]
adamperlow has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adamperlow has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
adamperlow has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dabura667_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
adamperlow has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
alferz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adamperlow has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adamperlow has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
alferz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
vicenteH has quit [Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.2)]
vicenteH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
meshcollider has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wxss has joined #bitcoin-wizards
stevenroose has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
thrmo has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
stevenroose has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<waxwing>
made a blog about non-interactive coinjoin idea https://joinmarket.me/blog/blog/snicker ; one issue that cropped up is, how can one avoid the spam problem of people submitting ~ \infty junk encrypted coinjoin proposals; given that the whole point is to keep submission and receipt anonymous, is there anything better than a hashcash approach? and i'm not claiming that a hashcash approach even really works, just not sure.
<waxwing>
maybe there is some crypto idea i'm not considering.
<andytoshi>
if it's just anti-DoS a trusted setup is probably fine, you could SNARK that you own some output
<waxwing>
ah. like, if you accept trusted setup snark is fairly easy here, you're saying?
<waxwing>
i mean, maybe it is for you :)
<andytoshi>
there are also trusted-setup ringsigs that are small but they're not really usable on bitcoin where EC keys aren't exposed for the most part (and i think they all need pairings and won't work on secp)
c0rw1n_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<andytoshi>
you could try just using libsnark or something, maybe "i own a bitcoin output with this key image" is too complicated to prove quickly with off-the-shelf software
harrymm has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
ariard has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
harrymm has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aaronvan_ is now known as AaronvanW
dnaleor has quit [Quit: Leaving]
tromp has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
_whitelogger has joined #bitcoin-wizards
_whitelogger has joined #bitcoin-wizards
_whitelogger has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
_whitelogger_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
bildramer has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bildramer1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Client Quit]
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adamperlow has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adamperlow has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
ecurrencyhodler has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
daszorz has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
meshcollider has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
wxss has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
wxss has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
adamperlow has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jb55 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adamperlow has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
ariard has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
adamperlow has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<jb55>
how long can the mining arms race continue until all mines reach maximum energy capacity of their local region? won't that centralize mining even further? or is that far off...
adamperlow has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
* jb55
pictures future scenario where the mine buys a whole nuclear plant to feed it energy
<jb55>
or maybe that would cause innovation in new forms of energy or efficient chips... hmm
d9b4bef9 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
d9b4bef9 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
vicenteH has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
daszorz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wxss_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has quit [Quit: laurentmt]
wxss has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
wxss_ is now known as wxss
adamperlow has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adamperlow has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
adamperlow has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
eck has quit [Quit: we out here]
eck has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<prestwich>
is there anything written about expiring transactions? I've seen a few people saying it's a bad idea, but no in-depth reasoning
<sipa>
bitcoin core expires transactions now after a few days
<sipa>
but nothing prevents anyone from rebroadcasting
eck has quit [Quit: we out here]
<prestwich>
more like the opposite of a time lock. transaction becomes invalid after a set time
eck has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<prestwich>
something like CLTV but for expiration would be a very useful tool. children wouldn't be safe if a large reorg happens, but that seems like it could be addressed?
Giszmo has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
eck has quit [Quit: we out here]
eck has joined #bitcoin-wizards
eck has quit [Client Quit]
<maaku>
prestwich: addressed how?
eck has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<maaku>
that's precisely the problem. a transaction chain could be invalidated in a reorg of any length, *without even requiring a double-spend or malicious intent*
<maaku>
it would make bitcoins less fungible
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<maaku>
as a hamfisted fix you could make the outputs have a 100 block maturity requirement, which (1) eliminates many of the useful things you might want to do with an expiry, and -
<maaku>
(2) isn't the same anyway because you can still get unintentional invalidations on a long-reorg (whereas invalidations on a >100 block reorg because of coinbase mixing has to be intentional as it requires resigning a new transaction, not the old one just becoming invalid all of a sudden)
<maaku>
prestwich: also, whatever you want to do could probably be done off-chain with lightning like state invalidations
<prestwich>
addressed by designing the uses around the limitation, for example. even long maturity requirements don't rule out useful cases.
<maaku>
prestwich: long materity requirements are *not* the same, as I noted
Giszmo has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<maaku>
right now for a transaction to become forever invalid on a reorg requires *active* resigning of one of the inputs. you can point to a conflicting transaction and blame the people responsible for it.
<maaku>
but if there's a reorg that invalidates a transaction simply because the tx wasn't included yet and has now expired on the new chain tip? whos fault is that?
AaronvanW has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<prestwich>
let me check understanding: if you find yourself in a network segment with lower blockheight, and lower accumulated difficulty, than another segment, expirations can invalidate many transactions in case of a reorg. Even if, subjectively, they have many confirmations.
<prestwich>
Is that right?
daszorz has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
blablablaalb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
packetsmurf has joined #bitcoin-wizards
coinsmurf has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
<blablablaalb>
No right ?
meeh has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
blablablaalb has quit []
<sipa>
prestwich: not segments
<sipa>
just a reorganization from one chain to another
vicenteH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<prestwich>
i think i meant partition rather than segment. what other causes of long reorgs are there? very expensive attacks?
meeh has joined #bitcoin-wizards
meeh_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
meeh has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
adamperlow has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<maaku>
you see multi-block reorgs fairly frequently. if people selfish-mined you'd see them even more frequently
<prestwich>
for reorgs longer than say 5, I think the main causes would be attacks, segmentation, and consensus bugs (e.g. March 2013). Any that I'm missing?
<prestwich>
is there a quick way to check how often normal multi-block reorgs happen? bc.i lists orphans, but the interface is terrible.
adamperlow has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Emcy>
>Coincidence that this year is the 100th anniversary of the Bolshevik revolution? I think not. Naturally this dynamic transcends crypto but the "political" phenomenon is noteworthy to say the least.
<Emcy>
so the 'fuck the fee market, free txns for all according to his need' guys are insinuating the other guys are the commies
<Emcy>
i dont know whos trolling whom anymore
<Emcy>
why have they starting saying bcash is 'turing complete'
<prestwich>
the profile for selfish mining would be reorgs from height n to height n+1 often, right? but not reorgs to height n+5.
<Emcy>
did the re-enable all of the scripts
<Emcy>
shit, this is the wrong chan
adamperlow has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
adamperlow has joined #bitcoin-wizards
vicenteH has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<maaku>
prestwich: not necessarily, no, but even n+1 is no less problematic
<maaku>
if the tx expires at the next block
adamperlow has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
<prestwich>
maaku: yes, defintely. that's something that reasonable maturity requirements would help. but they definitely don't fix the whole problem
<prestwich>
I think that for my use case, I'd be comfortable with the reorg risk. I'm already relying on long reorgs being very rare in other parts of the system.
<sipa>
prestwich: it's not about you being fine with reorg risk
<sipa>
it's about exposing everyone you're paying to that risk
adamperlow has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<prestwich>
sipa: restated: I think the risk can be parameterized, planned for, and communicated to the parties involved.
adamperlow has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
vicenteH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adamperlow has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guyver2 has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)]
adamperlow has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<sipa>
prestwich: yes, but it's giving them a significant burden
<sipa>
they'd need to do pretty xonplicated analysis to determine the risk of any dependencies crossing into their invalid range
<sipa>
the design of the whole system is easier for everyone by forcing all coins to have nearly the same risk
<sipa>
in particular, for SPV clients it's not possible at all to do that analysis
adamperlow has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pro has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<prestwich>
yes, this is not a risk that most people are qualified to understand and deal with
<prestwich>
I really appreciate you taking the time to teach me about it :)
pro has left #bitcoin-wizards ["Leaving"]
Giszmo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
adamperlow has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<prestwich>
what I have in mind is long-term (several month) cross-chain transactions between _very_ sophisticated parties. some structures are only possible with an opcode expiry time, as far as I can tell
meshcollider has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adamperlow has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<sipa>
you can always simulate it by having a presigned locktimed transaction that undoes
adamperlow has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
jb551 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jb55 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Emcy_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
adamperlow has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aranjedeath has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<prestwich>
sipa: ah, I thought about that a bit. I'd prefer that, but can't find a way that doesn't either break either atomicity or real-world contract expectations