sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<andytoshi>
sounds like the premise of an encyclopedia brown mystery
<waxwing>
complete guess but maybe you matched the lengths of the redacted bits to the length of addresses for the first blocks as displayed on block explorers (although iirc those addresses are bogus because they were p2pk outputs)
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<gmaxwell>
waxwing: winner winner chicken dinner
<gmaxwell>
The text says esentially 'wright mined a lot of blocks he doesn't even know which ones. However, he knows he mined [redacted] blocks whos addresses can be looked up. The addresses mentioned above are X' then I saw that there were 70 addresses listed. 70 is much shorter than the first redaction.
<gmaxwell>
But "earliest 70" would be about right
<gmaxwell>
interestingly the list does not include the address for block 0
<gmaxwell>
but leaving that off, the shape when rendered with a times new roman lookalike is the same.
<waxwing>
the redaction part is just for theatre though. well anyway ruminating on that aspect, may be reasonably considered completely off topic :)
<gmaxwell>
previously unremarked advantage of BC1 addresses: if printed with a monospace font, they don't leak data when redacted.
<sipa>
haha
<sipa>
that's true for base58 as well?
<gmaxwell>
sipa: no 1x addresses are variable length.
<sipa>
(uppercase and lowercase are same width on monospace fonts)
<gmaxwell>
wright's list would still have been identifyable in a monospace font.
<sipa>
ah, you mean the occasional 33-character address?
<gmaxwell>
as blocks 11, 53, and 65 have shorter addresses.
<gmaxwell>
yes.
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<gmaxwell>
just the 33/34 difference is 0.12565805017256743 bits per line leaked.
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<midnightmagic>
gmaxwell: is it the same list as before? lol
<midnightmagic>
gmaxwell: or was my awesome prediction correct!
<midnightmagic>
oh. that's a little list.
<midnightmagic>
Boooooooooo!
<midnightmagic>
gmaxwell: Aw, that means he's claiming |}ruid's blocks
* midnightmagic
sees channel
<midnightmagic>
woops
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<jeremyrubin>
gmaxwell: what do you think about having large Bitcoin holders reveal old private keys as a way of honest signalling their commitment to economic finalization of a block.
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<shesek>
jeremyrubin, what's their incentive to do so? they would be taking a risk if a reorg ends up happening anyway
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<Chris_Stewart_5>
Is there a word for the property that bitcoin transactions are "self-contained" i.e., we don't need to look outside of the tx for verification of the tx itself inside of Script
<nsh>
hmm
<ghost43>
no free variables; well not exactly a word
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<kanzure>
ChristopherA___: you do need to look outside the transaction for validation (utxo spentness)
<sipa>
not just spentness; utxo contents as well
<sipa>
and there is a dependency on the block height and timestamp
<kanzure>
whoops wrong christopher
<sipa>
it is true however that script validity does not depend on outside context beyond some immutable data being available
<sipa>
and that's very much a design property: otherwise reorgs would require re-executing all mempool scripts
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<jb55>
bitcoin might be succeptible to a relativistic computation attack: put miner around a black hole at relativistic speeds to do a billion years of mining in a short timespan. pull off massive re-org from genesis. although the amount of energy required to do this may be very large.
* jb55
goes to do some calculations
<nsh>
hypercomputation is not a bitcoin-wizards topic until you get it to work :)
<jb55>
k
<nsh>
(or it appears immanent. planning ahead is fine, but imagination itself isn't a development)
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<jb55>
although how would miners even get these blocks relayed to them so they could start mining on the alien-being-dicks chain? not sure how the code would handle that?
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<jeremyrubin>
shesek: it gives them some notion of economic finality, which is something that businesses require
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<gmaxwell>
jeremyrubin: there are a number of ideas like the use of single show signatures that make sense 'academically' but I think don't make pratical sense because they're so exceptionally brittle. ... where any kind of mistake or error turns into funds loss, or where otherwise benign 'vulnerablities' in hardware wallers or the like complete blow their security. Key publishing is one such idea.
<gmaxwell>
jeremyrubin: consider, use of BIP32 public derrivation is pretty ubiquitious. Publish a private key and have a known chaincode? OOPS: all your private keys are published
<gmaxwell>
jeremyrubin: regarding finalization, there are other safer ideas around improving finalization. In particular, one I posted a long time ago was that transactions could sign the block at a particular height and either (1) be invalid if that match fails, or (2) have their fees either burned or returned to geometric issuance (the latter basically making it so that the user's fees aren't equally
<gmaxwell>
paying for security OR an attack).
<gmaxwell>
But the challenge is that pinning the chain identity is incompatible with reorgs which are necessary, and breaking reorgs is bad for decenteralization and stability. So any kind of pinning would need to be reorg safe, e.g. by requiring the block pinned be (say) 100 back. But then thats another design wrinkle.
<gmaxwell>
As an aside, in the conversation that led to the creation of the taproot annex proposal that _exact_ chain pinning idea was cited as one of the things it could have been used for.
<gmaxwell>
In any case, I think that kind of approach is better for finalization than leaking keys. Hard pinning that means a long reorg has an increased amount of guarenteed disruption, meaning more users are incentivized to fight it, or soft-pinning which just changes the economics of reorg attacks, reducing the payment to the attacker. (which will be more important as subsidy decreases...)
<gmaxwell>
I suppose one could imagine a kind of ultra-hard pinning, where the transaction could be included in a pin violating chain but instead of the outputs being created all the sepent funds is returned to circulation by being added to the pool of funds being handed out.... I think this idea is silly, but it's still better than key publishing. :)
<gmaxwell>
spent*
<gmaxwell>
All these ideas run into the a problem that they require a user to take an action that benefits the ecosystem but which might hurt them personally, and which is probably not a decisive benefit in and of itself.
<gmaxwell>
Like there is a big reorg that survives, and damnit your txn history wasn't included because of a pin, and you get doublespent, and you're sad.
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<gmaxwell>
And you can't _mandate_ pinning a moderately recent chain without breaking the ability to produce transactions offline or in advance.
<gmaxwell>
I suppose the best consensus rules could do is treat txn that don't pin as having higher weight, so you get a discount for doing it.. but then thats yet another subject design parameter.
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