andytoshi changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit https://bitcoin.ninja
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<zwopdrek>
Had a discussion today about invoice reuse in bitcoin. Was wondering if making it consensus-invalid for new invoice types (e.g. p2tr) has been considered.
<queip>
it's for LN?
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<zwopdrek>
queip: If that was in response to me, I meant invoices as in BIP-179 style terminology ie. "address" in old-style terminology.
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<andytoshi>
i think unfortunately(?) LN has taken the word "invoice" so if you use it in place of "address" you'll have trouble communicating
<andytoshi>
but aside from that
<andytoshi>
zwopdrek: no, i think we briefly considered making it illegal in taproot but dismissed it pretty quickly (and nobody picked it up)
<andytoshi>
the problem is that it requires an ongoing ever-growing accumulator for validators
<andytoshi>
and ultimately there isn't _really_ a big benefit
<andytoshi>
and it may even discourage taproot adoption :(
<andytoshi>
i mean, as far as "privacy loss by bad wallet behavior" it's probably the biggest one ... but it's dwarfed by the information available in the transaction graph
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<belcher>
the privacy benefits of avoiding address reuse are pretty big, but the ever-growing accumulator kills the idea of making it a rule
<belcher>
theres a paper somewhere which put address reuse as the biggest privacy leak, but not the only one of course
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<zwopdrek>
The accumulator problem also occurred to me while I was outside 😅
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<zwopdrek>
I'm not exactly sure how it would discourage taproot adoption, though
<zwopdrek>
If people need to change their behaviour to work with it, then that is probably a good thing?
<zwopdrek>
Though it would open up a hypothetical DoS attack vector where a malicious entity sends higher-fee, lower-paying txes to addresses that are paid out to by unmined txes 🤔
<andytoshi>
zwopdrek: that's an interesting attack
<andytoshi>
and re "people would need to change their behaviour" sadly some people *cough*blockchain.info*cough* still have not upgraded to segwit and are effectively spamming the network with low-efficiency transactions
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<zwopdrek>
But they would not be using the new invoice (address) type
<zwopdrek>
So it wouldn't cause conflict in that sense
<zwopdrek>
It's only when they would upgrade to support new address types that they would need to change their logic
<andytoshi>
right .. my point is that they'll be even less likely to upgrade if they need to change their logic
<andytoshi>
the changes for them to use segwit are basically trivial
<andytoshi>
and they can't be arsed
<zwopdrek>
Ahh, yes, you are right
<andytoshi>
lol, i was hoping you'd have some smackdown argument for me
<andytoshi>
in any case .. i think ultimately the reason not to do this comes down to the accumulator which makes it technically infeasible
<andytoshi>
if it weren't for that there'd at least be a faction of people pushing for it
<andytoshi>
even if it couldn't get a lot of buy-in
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<zwopdrek>
"lol, i was hoping you'd have some smackdown argument for me" well I was typing out something about there always being laggards and they shouldn't dictate what's possible with upgrades, we could implement it as an opt-in flag for addresses (a la RBF), etc. but yeah, the accumulator and hypothetical DoS attack vector pretty much kill the entire concept already long before any laggards
<zwopdrek>
become relevant
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<zwopdrek>
I'm not sure the attack is truly feasible in the long run (too costly to exploit in theory) but the game theory requires that all wallets have mitigations built in, so that's not realistic either.
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<harding>
You could make address reuse significantly less convenient by disallowing blocks containing transactions spending more than one input with the same previous scriptPubKey. Simpler, more cacheable, and probaly almost as effective, you could make that a transaction-level rule only (so no tx can contain more than one input with the same prevScript). For more flexibility but still discouragement, you could just make prevScript reuse result in
<harding>
higher transaction weights (requiring paying more fees although also reducing block capacity).
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<queip>
harding: how it interacts with the fact that sometimes people are dusted e.g. by some bots?
<harding>
queip: it makes spending the dust harder and more expensive, but if the wallet just ignores the dust, it doesn't create any problems for the user.
<sipa>
rational mining logic under such a rule would just delay the same-spK-spend transactions, to spread it ovef multiple blocks
<harding>
sipa: for the first idea, yes. For the second idea (tx level policy/rule only), that's not possible. The goal is to make it inconvenient for the user of reused addresses, who now can't use multiple inputs to pay for something in a single transaction and either needs to split that payment into multiple transactions or create multiple transactions each paying unique addresses and then use those tx outputs as inputs for their single payment
<harding>
transaction. That's where the third idea helps, it reduces the inconvenience and the byte overhead of the multiple transactions but still enacts a vbyte penalty.
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<zwopdrek>
Interesting idea. Vbyte penalty would have to be chosen such that it penalizes less than doing separate txes.
<zwopdrek>
Would also depend on how many people are actually currently spending different utxos tied to the same addr in the same tx
<queip>
although.. reuse in form of putting your donations QR for everyone to see (see how many you got yet), in logo and such, are interesting uses cases to be hones.
<queip>
do we have anything else that allows you to permanently show someone where to donate, and also everyone to see how much you got there
<queip>
other than .bit onion site with LN and with signing each given out invoice and timestamping them all together their history in git-like structure
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<zwopdrek>
I don't think we're talking about adding addr reuse prevention measures to existing addr types, so people could keep using legacy addr types for those usecases
<zwopdrek>
Unless harding's ideas would apply across the board
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