andytoshi changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit https://bitcoin.ninja
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<pinheadmz>
jonasschnelli / anyone familiar with the BIP324 (encrypted peer services) proposal. I'm wondering if static keys are required to prevent MITM between nodes? I don't understand gmax's comment "you authenticate a hash of the session key inside the encrypted session." If there's MITM can't this also be faked?
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<jonasschnelli>
pinheadmz: BIP324 has no MITM protection. Its opportunistic encryption that allows building authentication schemes (like BIP150 / static keys) on top
<jonasschnelli>
However, an attacker needs A) to actively observe and B) has to take the risk to be detected (assume two peers compare the session-ID over the phone or so)
<sipa>
pinheadmz: gmax means "you use an actual authentication protocol (whjch isn't part of BIP324) to verify both sides have the same session key hash"
<pinheadmz>
gotcha ty
<pinheadmz>
sipa like reading a session key over the phone? :-)
<sipa>
if there is a MitM, the two (honest) partners have a distinct session hash
<pinheadmz>
I see
<sipa>
pinheadmz: that is a possible way yes, though not what i had in mind :)
<pinheadmz>
like Signal "safety numbers" etc - must be compared and verified out of band
<sipa>
pinheadmz: we've worked on and off for a few years on a secret authentication protocol
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<pinheadmz>
and my understanding is that LN nodes do have static public keys, but a confirmed transaction is required to trust such a key from a remote peer?
<sipa>
the idea is: one side has a private key, other side has a public key; the public side can verify whether or not the private side's key matches their public key, without anyone learning anything else
<sipa>
LN nodes have observable identities, that makes it easy ;)
<sipa>
the protocol details are outdated, but the text to explain the purpose isn't
<pinheadmz>
oh interesting thanks
<pinheadmz>
how are LN nodes more observable than bitcoin nodes?
<pinheadmz>
Like, an LN node has pubkey:IP - do those get gossiped? or do i only trust a pubkey given to me directly by a peer
<sipa>
they have an identity
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<sipa>
pinheadmz: you make connections to peers you know in LN
<pinheadmz>
that makes sense, i see why bitcoin nodes dont need identities but could they? just to ensure secure channels without MITM?
<sipa>
e.g. you don't want to be able to track nodes around as their IP changes
<pinheadmz>
right ok
<sipa>
yes, of course you could, but we don't want to :)
<pinheadmz>
gotcha
<pinheadmz>
do LN nodes gossip addrs like bitcoin nodes? but with pubkey:IP instead of just ip ?
<jnsu>
s
<sipa>
i don't know the details, but i believe yes
<sipa>
as crawler sites list the pubkeys
<sipa>
this countersign protocol allows defining a static identity for nodes, but one that is completely unobservable to anyone who doesn't already know their pubkey
<sipa>
so you can ask "hey, are you X?", but you can't ask "who are you?"
<sipa>
and the side that answers doesn't even see X
<sipa>
it's pretty neat :)
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<pinheadmz>
sweet, thanks
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