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<tabemann> hey
* tabemann wonders why he'd want to use the IAR C compiler when he can have his own, homemade Forth compiler
<rdrop-exit> hi tabemann c[]
* tabemann remembers IAR from quite some time ago (this is in reference to a comment from way earlier today)
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<tp> tabemann, especially when the IAR C compiler os is proprietary payware
<tp> hey rdrop-exit
<rdrop-exit> hi tp!
<tabemann> back
<tabemann> hey tp
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<tabemann> and if one doesn't want to use gcc, there is always clang
<tabemann> it's not like the only options are gcc and proprietary crap
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<tp> tabemann, with arm it's pretty much Gcc/proproetary tho as clang doesnt do ARM iirc
<tp> ot Clang suppirt is poor ror something like that
<tp> plus the ARM people actually maintain the GCC version of arm-none-eai-
<tabemann> that is true
<remexre> huh, that's somewhat surprising to me; I thought apple poured tons of $ into llvm+clang for iphone et al
<remexre> or did that only end up helping aarch64?
<tp> remexre, I dont know but everyone uses arm-none-eabi- for embedded arm as far as Im aware
<remexre> my only embedded arm experience is with aarch64-none-elf- so I can't really speak to that triple
<tabemann> aarch64 isn't real embedded IMHO
<remexre> but for aarch64 clang seems to produce better assembly than gcc, from eyeballing small sections I've needed to optimize
<remexre> just 'cause it's too "big"?
<tabemann> the Raspberry PI and the iPhone are essentially PC's
<tp> ahh thats it's then, apple paid clang for aarch64 I guess
<remexre> yeah, and I guess my "embedded" platform even has a GPU
<remexre> /shrug
<tp> remexre, if it has a GPU it's definitely more PC than Embedded imho
<remexre> ya, it's only embedded in the sense that I'd like to embed it into a table w/ a screen :P
<remexre> before I can do that I need a GPU driver in Forth though, heh
<tp> remexre, heheh, you'll probably be the one writing the Forth GPU driver
<remexre> yuuuuup
* tabemann likes platforms where everything is in the datasheet, and the datasheet is less than a thousand pages long
<remexre> been trying to convince a samsung guy I know to do it (not their gpu)
<remexre> he's proving resistant to writing any code that's not C/C++, sadly
<tp> tabemann, so you dont like STM32 ?
<tabemann> tp: well, it's spread amongst three different datasheets
<rdrop-exit> check out the iPhone SoC, 6-core + "machine learning accelerators"
<tp> remexre, youre not having much luck getting a C/C++ Samsung guy tor write a GPU driver in Forth for the Apple_A13 ? ... colour me not suprised ;-)
<tabemann> one for the specific MCU, one for the processor architecture, and one for the board-specific info
<rdrop-exit> + a 4-core GPU
<remexre> er, it's not the apple A13; it's an RK3399 (on the rockpro64)
<remexre> the apple gpu does seem laptoppy, though
<remexre> er, soc*
<tp> remexre, and youd need the Samsung guy to do it probably as the GPU is probably password protected or some crap
<remexre> tp: linux drivers do exist, but I've been trying not to read any linux src so I don't get infected by gpl
<tp> remexre, I have a Asus 'transformer' tablet, it's a great unit, made in 2012 and still perfect, including both internal batteries .... BUT the GPU is locked, it can never run unix
<remexre> might try to clean-room it w/ the samsung guy, though
<remexre> oof, tragic; the rk3399 is pretty open, as far as I know the GPU is the only thing for which the Linux driver is less than perfect
<tp> yeah, they were warned in New York about that but they had a big Linux GPU party and now everyone is infected!
<tabemann> lol
<tabemann> zeptoforth got infected because I wanted to borrow code from mecrisp-stellaris
<tp> remexre, well OSS has always had problems with GPU's because like FPGA's the manufacturers get all IP mad about their 'baby'
<tp> tabemann, that will teach you to wear a N4 mask next time while coding!
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<tabemann> lol
<remexre> tp: yeah, it's unfortunate... tho the samsung guy says there are non-trivial tricks in the driver that do actually provide a perf advantage on android, so maybe there's something to it
<remexre> whereas the same prolly isn't true for an ethernet adapter or smth
<tp> remexre, I guess everyone has their own 'special tricks', lol, which are probably the same as the other guys 'special tricks' but as theyre all sooper-seeekret, no one knows
<tp> plus they probably all steal the methods from each other and use "IP" to hide it anyway
<remexre> can't say personally, but my impression was that the mobile gpu space is kinda a shitshow, to the point where some guys' tricks are actively harmful
<tp> remexre, i bet it is because it's so sooper-secret
<tp> where does super secret actually help in OSS ?
<remexre> oh, I'm not saying it helps driver code quality or anything; I'm saying it makes whatever popular android game of the week run at the same quality with 0.1% less battery use, and that's enough to make their SoC get a $10M bulk sale
<tp> remexre, you may be interested to know that the GPU's used in certain ATI boards that are fully open source are said to work far better than the official ATI drivers
<tp> remexre, lol
<tp> remexre, I have a $650 nvidia GTX660 in this box and frankly a $35 ATI card in my other box running FreeBSD looks identical on the same monitor, I cant notice the difference in X mode
<remexre> oof, tbf I've heard nothing good about the amd driver dev team going back years now...
<tp> remexre, yeah, same here
<tp> bit the FreeBSD driver for that card is perfect, and no hassle, it runs perfectly after the base install
<tp> when I saw how good it was, I felt a bit ripped off paying $650 for the nvidia. Sure nvidia has the CUDA cores and if you run Blender youll want them, and Kinux
<tp> Linux
<tabemann> back
<tp> but for a x server and the occasional game, $35 ATI has been flawless for me
<tp> and could have saved me $615
<tabemann> okay, did an official release including the numbered local labels
<rdrop-exit> congrats
<tp> tabemann, Ive dl it, havent run it yet as Im still finishing my bit@ page
<tp> tabemann, ime excited to try it because then I can try the RTS assembly mod! very exciting!
<tabemann> cool
<tp> tabemann, if it works ok, it will save you years of work everytime someone want to port to their STM32 chip
<tabemann> unfortunately I can't try out RTS because one of my boards uses USB-serial built in and the other, well, uses serial, but my USB-serial dongle doesn't have RTS/CTS pins
<tp> in that you can write a page about how to do it with your dissasembler, heck, I'll do one
<tp> yeah I know, but Im perfectly placed to do it for the F407
<tp> 'porting' usually involves changing the USART with Mecrisp-Stellaris
<tp> then handling the flash controller
<tp> thats about it afaik
<tp> tabemann, I see youve been forked now as well!
<tabemann> yeah
<tp> tabemann, someone forked you!
<rdrop-exit> that's gotta hurt
<tp> Elliot Williams
<tp> hes the main Crapaday Forth writer
<tp> and his hobby seems to be forking anything hes interested in on github
<tabemann> I should check whether he's forked STM8EF
<tp> I've noticed a LOT of coders who actually never release anything original original forking other peoples work
<tp> he has
<rdrop-exit> sporkers
<tp> so github has tons of forked and utterly unmaintained programs everywhere
* tabemann got in contact with the STM8EF guy and now he wants to try out zeptoforth
<tp> these people dont even say why they forked
<tp> hes a cool guy!
<tp> and STM8EF is a mod of E Tings "eforth" for the STM8, it looks damn good
<tabemann> I envy how small STM8EF manages to bbe
<tp> well it is a 8 bit mcu
<tp> the smaller the cell size the smaller the Forth I think
<tp> I thought a tethered STM8 would be awesome, but matthias doesnt like the ISA
<tp> shame as the MCU can be bought brand new for $0.20 or so
<tabemann> apparently there's lots of ubercheap devices from China which use either STM8S or clones thereof
<tp> yes there is
<tp> one can get a 8 digit temperature controller with the STM8 in it from china for $2
<tp> Im not aware of any STM8 clones, but given the Chinese drive to counterfeit everything, it wouldnt be surprising
<tp> just writing a binary to find the counterfeit STM32F103's was enough for me in this lifetime
<tp> which incidentally has been dl 273 times now
* tabemann would prefer not to deal with counterfeit chips, hence why he spent $25 on a DISCOVERY board from STMicroelectronics rather than a $3 blue pill from who knows where with who knows what
<tp> MrMobius, good advice, the MSP430 is definitely special in many ways.
<tp> MrMobius, I think one of those ways is the tight peripheral integration making actions such as a one word low power mode apply to the usart
<tabemann> low power modes with the STM32L476 and STM32F407, well, you have to remember to keep your USART on while sleeping or stopped, or otherwise your USART interrupts won't fire
<tp> tabemann, the stm32X low power modes are very complex compared to the MSP430 which leads the field in this area
<tp> being 16 bits, the MSP430 is probably the lowest power MCU around
<tp> tabemann, I know the STM32Lxxxx has a 'low power usart' but I havent looked at it yet
<tp> tabemann, I have three variants of the STM32L0xxxx here now
<tabemann> yeah, I saw the "low power usart", but I don't know how to use it
<tp> tabemann, it seems to have a bunch of special low power facilities and I'll get to it one day!
<tp> tabemann, Ive a STM32L073 Nucleo with 192kB flash Ive added RTS handshaking to
<tp> tabemann, so next in it's agenda is speeding up the clock to 35Mhz, then finding out how low I can get the power usage, then the low power usart
<tabemann> good luck!
<tp> it has to wait until my current projs are dome
<tp> done
<tp> the STM32L073 will all be grunt work really
<tp> because I have my svd2forth stuff, this kind of thing is a lot easier for me
<tabemann> now, done with my bugfix release
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<tabemann> this's been two releases in the same day, but I kind of have adopted the policy of always making a bugfix release, no matter how minor the issue, when I find a bug somewhere
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<tabemann> okay, I'm gonna hit the sack - g'night guys
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<MrMobius> tabemann, you would use IAR because the simulator is free
<MrMobius> which is not so important for C but very nice for assembly
<MrMobius> also, is there clang for msp430?
<MrMobius> tp, I think cells are still 16 bit even on an 8 bit chip like stm8
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<tp> MrMobius, I think youre right!
<tp> pretty handy really
<MrMobius> definitely
<MrMobius> I've thought about experimenting with 8 bit cells for 6502
<MrMobius> and treating 16 bits like doubles
<tp> thats what I'd do, but Im a tech not a programmer
<tp> but I think 16 bits are a standard with Forth anyway
<dave0> MrMobius: do you use an emulator for the 6502 ?
<dave0> commodore 64 emulator?
<tp> I mean 8 bits is next to useless anyway
<dave0> or apple ][ ?
<tp> MrMobius, the very first cpu I ever saw was a native 16 bit (National PACE) in 1974
<tp> MrMobius, back then that CPU cost $270 odd AUD
<MrMobius> dave0, yes but for 65C02. I made one in javascript so people can try stuff in their browser
<MrMobius> heh, next to useless? I dont think so
<dave0> MrMobius: ooh cool
<MrMobius> I was reading about stm8 after someone mention eforth yesterday
<MrMobius> looks like st came out with that after stm32 :P
<tp> MrMobius, 8 bit only is next to useless I mean
<MrMobius> oh right
<tp> MrMobius, I thought STM8 came first
<dave0> i'venever written anything in javascript... does javacsript syntax resemble c syntax?
<MrMobius> dave0, yep with a good bit of other stuff mixed in. no variable types though
<dave0> ah cool
<MrMobius> tp, maybe I'm wrong then
<dave0> i wrote a game in c, and a guy i know did a javascript version... i was wondering if you could automatically convert c code to javascript
<MrMobius> not automatically
<MrMobius> javascript doesnt really have pointers for one
<dave0> yeah pointers is a bit of a defining C thing
<dave0> forth too :-)
<tp> MrMobius, I'm not so sure, I cant find anything on the stm8 history online ...
<dave0> except forth is nicer than c
<tp> dave0, agree 100%
<dave0> tp: ehehe
<tp> MrMobius, I actually like the STM8 ISA but 'discovered' the STM32 first, and there isnt any going back for me
* tp has the most kickarse stm32 forth development system in the known universe :)
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<cmtptr> https://emscripten.org/ possibly relevant
<tp> lol, look at this STM8 Hackaday review sentence, see anything wrong with it ? "The good thing is, this isn’t a blinking LED example. The code he shows uses interrupts and reads analog values. He doesn’t get into a lot of details"
<tp> somehow it's now popular for people who probably cannot blink a led if their life depended on it, to cast disdain on any led blinking article while unknowingly showcasing their utter ignorance of all things embedded
<tp> I guess that Hackaday journo cant imagine a blinking led example using interrupts ?
<tp> MrMobius, you are right!
<tp> Following the market launch of the award winning STM32TM microcontroller,
<tp> STMicroelectronics completes the renewal of its microcontroller product line with the announcement of the STM8S family.
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<tp> MrMobius, hmm, the stm32F103 was released in 2004
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<tp> MrMobius, and the STM8S announced in July 2009
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<tp> so the STM8S appears to be a more recent product than the STM32F103, but it's 2 years before the chip I use, the STM32F051
<MrMobius> hmm, some of the docs say it has something that is good for romless designs
<MrMobius> and accessing external code memory serially or in parallel
<MrMobius> cant find any examples of this though
<tp> MrMobius, I think the STM8S is a underrated chip in the west, seems very popular in China, and Ive seen them for sale at $0.18 USD each, tho not for a while
<MrMobius> interesting that they went with the x and y index register setup
<MrMobius> as opposed to a bunch of byte sized registers
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<tp> true .. I asked the author of Mecrisp-Stellaris if he would consider a tethered forth for it on the same basis as mecrisp-across, but he said he dislikes the STM8 ISA
<tp> where MSP430 chips are $5 compared to $0.20 for a STM8
<tp> during my admittedly brief STM8S investigation, ISA looked good to me
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