<whyrusleeping>
m0ns00n: is your video in ipfs yet? :P
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: That'd be awesome! But no. I don't have a working setup yet - too little time on my hands right now. But my other developers are looking into ipfs for sure
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: I think the combo with a distributed desktop, using ipfs, would be great
<whyrusleeping>
m0ns00n: once ipns is solid i'm going to try using ipfs as my home directory and see how it goes.
<whyrusleeping>
might be difficult to actually have my primary users homedir on ipfs though, i would have to start ipfs as a root level daemon before login...
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<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: did you see a screenshot of our desktop?
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: it has some cool features
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<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: working on the gnome and mac and windows themes now
<m0ns00n>
Also need to get a "browser like" folder navigation implemented
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<m0ns00n>
The target is for a december release, with a linux X session version for some months after
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<whyrusleeping>
m0ns00n: yeah, i've seen it. some pretty cool stuff! although i dont claim to understand the system very well, where is the compute hosted?
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<bret>
a bunch of them were emitted from the daemon
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<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: on your own computer - or if you want access to an already setup cluster, at friendos.com
<whyrusleeping>
bret: thats an interesting one
<whyrusleeping>
what it means is that your node has a connection to (or information about a peer), but the addresses you know for that peer have expired
<whyrusleeping>
so your node is basically saying "i know about this peer, but i have no idea how to contact them anymore"
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: so our commercial strategy is to make available already setup clusters, but if you want to be totally private, or have all control. you just download it and install it on your own computer
<bret>
whyrusleeping: heh interesting
<whyrusleeping>
m0ns00n: interesting, how well does a remote cluster perform latency-wise?
<whyrusleeping>
bret: yeah, its more NAT busting fun
<bret>
i put the ipfs node in front of my NAT in theory
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: That depends what you're doing. Our kernel server taps into services, depending on what you want
<bret>
as a default host
<whyrusleeping>
yeah, its not NAT busting for you, its NAT busting for everyone else basically
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: but if you're just using file activity, it's very fast
<whyrusleeping>
youre choosing not to send potentially bad addresses to people to dial
<whyrusleeping>
m0ns00n: okay, to access the cluster, i assume i run some sort of client program locally, right?
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: you run a server locally, that connects to the other servers. Each server can also be a client
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: and if you connect through a web browser to localhost, you get a desktop environment where you can set things up
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: or you can just ssh into it
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: and get into it's own dos environment
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: the server treats everything like file systems
<whyrusleeping>
m0ns00n: okay, neat. i'm assuming you would *prefer* the local server for things that are latency sensetive, yeah?
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: so you can use it through the web gui, or command line through ssh, or even through the command line in the desktop environment
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: yes, or on the lan
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: we're experimenting with this until october, when the early access is opened to pledgers
<whyrusleeping>
awesome, i've been thinking about a system like that for a long time.
<whyrusleeping>
i've always wanted a single desktop computer made up of many different computers
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: Yes me too :) that's why we're building it. and it has the same dos syntax on each OS :)
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: we're abstracting everything this way
<whyrusleeping>
are you going to be able to migrate processes to other machines if theyre long running enough?
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: our "dos drivers" are abstracting all subsystems in a coherent way
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: yes one of the features we're focusing on is to have mobile apps, that can be moved between servers
<whyrusleeping>
thats fantastic
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: and our highlevel language will give you the ability to restructure apps while they are running
<whyrusleeping>
so you can set machine affinity of threads just like you set cpu affinity now?
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: because the app to app messaging system is scriptable in JS or other languages
<m0ns00n>
you're talking low level - this might be possible, but we're focusing on apps running in virtual, mobile environments right now
<m0ns00n>
so you don't have to rewrite the apps
<m0ns00n>
but scripted apps will be easy to move
<m0ns00n>
did you look at our movie?
<m0ns00n>
You'll be able to do: var f = new File( 'Facebook:contacts/john/lastmessage' ); var string = f.read();
<m0ns00n>
And many other things
<m0ns00n>
So we're making everything available in the dos layer
<whyrusleeping>
m0ns00n: i think i saw it, yeah. the one on kickstarter?
<m0ns00n>
you'll mount anything, program with everything
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: So you'll gracefully get your apps automatically made responsive
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: so if you make a friendup app, it will be available for all web engines, all devices (mobile, TV, etc) - with different themes
<whyrusleeping>
m0ns00n: interesting
<m0ns00n>
if you like it; help us on the kickstarter and buy "us a beer" :) hehe
<m0ns00n>
we'll need it =)
<mmuller_>
m0ns00n: this sounds a lot like something I've been thinking of lately, what's your kickstarter page?
<m0ns00n>
To be honest, we need input on how to best explain this. Because it's different things for different people. And many people react negatively to the aspects they don't need, even though there are aspects they do need :)
<whyrusleeping>
m0ns00n: i clicked the green button :P
<m0ns00n>
whyrusleeping: I think I love you now ;)
<whyrusleeping>
hahaha, get hacking! i want my portable OS now
<m0ns00n>
Working day and night my friend :)
<m0ns00n>
Greatly appreciated
<m0ns00n>
Perhaps you guys can help us to get the best out of ipfs
<m0ns00n>
We're usually hanging around in #friendup
<whyrusleeping>
i think i could idle there
<m0ns00n>
Awesome! You're very welcome :)
<mmuller_>
yeah, this looks very much like something I've been visualizing. Thanks for implementing it for me :-)
<m0ns00n>
:)
<m0ns00n>
Hehe
<m0ns00n>
Ok
<m0ns00n>
dinner time
<m0ns00n>
I will be on later :)
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<PayasR>
hi!
<whyrusleeping>
PayasR: heyo
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<jbenet>
hey lgierth o/ -- re ccc, yeah that sounds good. let's figure out by email maybe?
<lgierth>
jbenet: ok i'll send you the details
<lgierth>
bbiab
<jbenet>
sounds good!
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<jbenet>
\\ sprint planning beginning in 8min //
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<krl>
o/
<whyrusleeping>
\o
<lgierth>
i'm here
<jbenet>
roll call: daviddias cryptix wking chriscool rht harlantwood
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<daviddias>
I'm here
* whyrusleeping
feels left out
<jbenet>
okay, last week we thought that we could all look over our stuff and prepare our update so this part goes faster
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<jbenet>
so, take a couple min to look over last week, prep update and then i'll start in order of the etherpad (whyrusleeping first) -- etherpad for this week: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/kKFTHJz4xu
<lgierth>
k give me 3... guess who forgot about that part
<lgierth>
ahyup
<jbenet>
Okay whyrusleeping want to go?
<whyrusleeping>
sure thing
<whyrusleeping>
So, this week i implemented a --only-hash option on ipfs add, to provide a quick way to rehash a file
<whyrusleeping>
I implemented a mark and sweep garbage collection for our blockstore so we can not have to deal with indirect pins anymore
<whyrusleeping>
i have a WIP batching interface for the datastore, and the flatfs implementation gets a nearly 3x perf boost on my SSD :)
<whyrusleeping>
go-multistream integration didnt progress much this week
<whyrusleeping>
aaand then i went camping and it was great!
<jbenet>
on the gc-- did you get a chance to write up the doc/comment explaining the algo?
<whyrusleeping>
yeap!
<whyrusleeping>
its pushed
<jbenet>
sgtm, will CR today
<whyrusleeping>
+1
<jbenet>
on the batching, how long will it take from here to have it in?
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<whyrusleeping>
could be done by noon with CR
<jbenet>
sgtm, and go-multistream, what's the blocker on that?
<whyrusleeping>
uhm, you were going to take a look at the integration next i beleive
<jbenet>
ah right \o/
<whyrusleeping>
lol
<whyrusleeping>
jbenet: youre blocking me!
<jbenet>
i'll TAL today
<jbenet>
ok sounds good. anything else?
* whyrusleeping
tries to think
<whyrusleeping>
oh, i pushed a PR to remove an unused package
<jbenet>
whyrusleeping ok sounds good.
<jbenet>
ok next, krl?
<krl>
ok
<krl>
so, addressed most of the CR for electron html menu, made an issue about the last one
<krl>
started working on ipfs-app, which will be a tool library you can npm import to write apps for ipfs
<krl>
that's about it. will be going on with ipfs-app, turning the webui, and the single webui components into ipfs-apps
<jbenet>
great! sgtm -- anything waiting on the CR? or am i good to merge?
<krl>
nothing waiting atm
<jbenet>
ok cool, i'll merge it.
<krl>
cool, over and out
<jbenet>
on ipfs-app, sounds great, maybe we can write up a short interface in an github.com/ipfs/notes or in its own repo or something, so we can comment up front on things?
<krl>
yep, it's not completely clear exactly how the interface will work yet, but i've abandoned the js global approach
<krl>
the idea is that the app has a .init: function (ipfs, mountpoint) { }
<krl>
where ipfs is the full api, or a subset thereof
<krl>
(auth, readonly, etc)
<jbenet>
ah sounds good
<krl>
then browserify turns it into something you can fetch over ipfs and execute in context
<krl>
did this before for funboot with good results
<jbenet>
great!
<jbenet>
re: starlog, looking good -- maybe we can make it an issue in a repo somewhere and discuss more + make task list for people. (i can do some of the design + looking around for blog tools we can reuse)
<krl>
yeah, i did the mock with quill, which seems pretty solid.
<jbenet>
i think we should have something ready there that people can use before CCC. we can get more people interested in this is there's too much to do
<krl>
we have to think about what format we want to use also, general html is probably not a good idea. not sure
<krl>
agreed
<krl>
keystore would be a blocker for starlog though
<jbenet>
yeah, we should look at what flexibility other tools provide. i suspect {markdown + wysiwyg + basic css styling} is 80% of what people expect
<lgierth>
[snip]
<jbenet>
{keystore, dht, ipns} triple threat
<krl>
and of course, we need custom formats for quotes and such
<jbenet>
thanks lgierth yep
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<jbenet>
ok lets carry on this discussion later
<jbenet>
anything else krl?
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<krl>
nop
<lgierth>
:)
<jbenet>
sgtm. cryptix around?
<lgierth>
probably on the way from fusion festival (or still there)
<jbenet>
ok lgierth \o/
<lgierth>
k c&p incoming
<lgierth>
- monitoring of gateway.ipfs.io nodes: 1) established a secure channel between the nodes by peering them via cjdns, so that metrics can be exposed safely, to whitelisted nodes only, 2) prepared go-ipfs to expose metrics via prometheus, 3) prepared one gateway node to run the prometheus daemon which collects the metrics and serves graphs
<lgierth>
- 1 is done, 2 is reviewed and pending an update from my side, about to be done, and 3 is work-in-progress
<lgierth>
- also fixed a bug in how nginx.conf referenced its upstream, which came up on jupiter whose hostname is not jupiter :)
<lgierth>
- on more pending task is the publishing of the gateway ansible scripts, everything's prepared
<lgierth>
- on the cjdns front, at least a bit happened, the gateways are now peered to the hyperboria network, via my cjdns nodes in amsterdam
<jbenet>
and on cjdns, i think it's relevant to discuss free form in github.com/ipfs/notes and push to a spec once there's something semi concrete
<lgierth>
i'll assign to you
<lgierth>
also +1 on fixing the hostname itself, good point :)
<jbenet>
sounds good
<lgierth>
re cjdns, i'd like to take a week or two and document what cjdns actually speaks
<lgierth>
cause there's no up-to-date documentation on that at all
<ipfsbot>
[go-ipfs] whyrusleeping force-pushed feat/batching-ds from 666bfd5 to 05d7b90: http://git.io/vtlzk
<ipfsbot>
go-ipfs/feat/batching-ds 05d7b90 Jeromy: WIP: use batching transaction interface from datastore...
<lgierth>
and thus not really a solid base for discussion
<jbenet>
yeah that'd likely be useful -- in particular, interested in in-app (embedded cjdns) use cases.
<jbenet>
sounds good. anything else?
<lgierth>
nop
<jbenet>
ok jbenet
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<jbenet>
I CRed all the things people asked for (listed on my todos)
<jbenet>
In process of making a listing + diagrams for the various IPFS modules and how they fit together https://github.com/ipfs/specs/pull/15/files which will be pretty important for understanding how ipfs works + implementing node-ipfs
<jbenet>
also setup ipfs basecamp in seattle for july (whyrusleeping, daviddias and i are here)
<jbenet>
on the listing + diagrams, i should do one more pass and make sure it's all there, (things are missing)
<jbenet>
modularizing can wait until after we merge the tons of outstanding PRs
<whyrusleeping>
+1
<jbenet>
and i started on making the iprs records package, (to demonstrate how it's meant to work AND implement it)
<jbenet>
but didnt get far.
<jbenet>
ok next. wking, around?
<jbenet>
chriscool - rht - harlantwood ?
<jbenet>
(will catch up with you guys as you arrive)
<jbenet>
daviddias i think you're up
<daviddias>
sure :)
<wking>
I haven't done much since the module graphic (specs#13)
<jbenet>
(wking: ok, maybe we can discuss them later today)
<wking>
sure
<daviddias>
So, after coming from MediterraneaJS, I've been working on the SPDY interop thing. The go client (based on docker/spdystream) can successfully connect the node.js server and write to the stream, however, there is still something missing when the server tries to reply back (the go client never gets it)
<daviddias>
both node client and server seem to be communicating fine (just now)
<daviddias>
there are somethings that we need to be aware when using spdy-transport, since it is not only "the framing layer" but actually the full thing with the option to "bring your own socket"
<daviddias>
spdy-transport still expects things like methods and paths to be passed upon a request
<jbenet>
nice, good to hear.
<jbenet>
ok maybe we can discuss more + debug that later today
<jbenet>
sounds good, anything else?
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<daviddias>
one thing to note is that due to the compromisse of having a full abstraction over all spdy versions + http2, frames are not actually parsed as they should be
<daviddias>
for example, a "SYN_STREAM" is parsed into a "HEADERS"
<daviddias>
this is abstracted by the connection.js object (but took me time to figure out that)
<jbenet>
let's maybe discuss all this more in depth at node-ipfs section + end the "sprint planning" part
<jbenet>
(but yeah, that's interesting to know/discuss)
<daviddias>
right! :)
<jbenet>
ok anyone else?
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<jbenet>
(daviddias is the last one listed on the sprint)
<lgierth>
jbenet: do you wanna discuss spec'ing cjdns or should i just write down what i wanna spec in notes.git, and go ahead?
<jbenet>
krl: we may want to fix times for the "remaining to schedule" parts
<jbenet>
lgierth: maybe throw something onto notes and we can discuss from there? (either in gh or realtime)
<lgierth>
ack
<krl>
jbenet: my preference would be to have the video call for us europeans first
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<jbenet>
krl: yeah that makes sense. want to propose changes to the schedule?
<lgierth>
i'm fine pushing infrastructure back a bit if there's need for an early slot
<ipfsbot>
[go-ipfs] whyrusleeping force-pushed feat/batching-ds from 05d7b90 to 2001251: http://git.io/vtlzk
<ipfsbot>
go-ipfs/feat/batching-ds 2001251 Jeromy: WIP: use batching transaction interface from datastore...
<krl>
change would be tack the three unscheduled things either before or aftor infrastructure, and node-ipfs
<jbenet>
krl: we could add one of them before, two may be pushing it, sometimes we run into this time
<krl>
i think ipfs node app, and apps on ipfs could be pretty much one slot also
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<jbenet>
krl: maybe we can split a 30min slot for both electron + ipfs apps
<jbenet>
yep yep +1
<jbenet>
ok let's put that _before_ infrastructure
<jbenet>
do we need a data structs chat this week?
<jbenet>
(my guess is no)
<krl>
i'm up for skipping it
<krl>
i have some ideas brewing that i need to write up soon though
<jbenet>
ok sounds good!
<lgierth>
<ansuz> up to 214 unique nodes since yesterday
<krl>
(more and more convinced of streamstack)
<lgierth>
<larsg> ok so ipfs.io is officially ~4 % of the network
<jbenet>
lgeirth: a) im not sure net diag works 100%, b) lots of nodes come in and out per day (gateway/bootstrapper metrics will help fix that), and c) i'm aware of several private networks.
<jbenet>
krl: sounds good
<jbenet>
krl: want to push a change to github.com/ipfs/pm adding your slot/
<lgierth>
jbenet: oh that's hyperboria
<jbenet>
ojhhhh
<jbenet>
ok
<jbenet>
:D
<lgierth>
:)
<jbenet>
lgierth: +1 on being 4% of the network
<jbenet>
<3
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<krl>
jbenet: yep
<jbenet>
ok, whyrusleeping daviddias and i are getting food. bbiab (i'll be back before our chat krl)
<krl>
hmm, in 15m?
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<krl>
back in 20.
<jbenet>
Ok back
<jbenet>
krl: sry- went to get food. back now, but looks like you're afk now.
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<bret>
has anyone written a babies first merkle dag? or a merkle-dag handbook?
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<whyrusleeping>
great... it looks like multiplex uses a custom varint format
<jbenet>
whyrusleeping take a look at modules/components/components.004.jpg in the link above \o
<whyrusleeping>
no
<jbenet>
that's how we resolve the "circular" problem with making the records be merkledag objects
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<jbenet>
hey kbala -- we had sprint planning earlier today (see https://github.com/ipfs/pm/pull/16) -- and as a consequence moved the hangout to be earlier too. im ok with keeping it at 17:30 though, whatever is best for you
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<dread-alexandria>
question - do you guys plan to implement some level of anonymity in IPFS - ie, encrypt outgoing traffic so that someone could not use a hash to find out the IP address of all of it’s seeders?
<dread-alexandria>
or even is that already implemented in some way im simply not aware of
<jbenet>
dread-alexandria: so certainly dont assume ipfs distros are anonymous. go-ipfs isn't today. but some will be in the future.
<jbenet>
dread-alexandria: nothing in the protocol impedes it.
<jbenet>
dread-alexandria: also traffic is already encrypted, so a passive eavesdropper can't pick it up, but this is far from anonymous and doesn't account for providing. etc.
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<jbenet>
lgierth: oh that's nice (the prometheus console for adhoc queries)
<dread-alexandria>
by a passive eavesdropper, do you mean someone simply monitoring a node’s traffic?
<kbala>
jbenet sorry my internet died, but i'll get to work on that stuff
<jbenet>
kbala: i lost you i think, was there anything else to discuss?
<dread-alexandria>
that is, if im running IPFS and i have a hash, i can currently find out the IP addresses of the nodes that are sharing it
<jbenet>
so you can construct an ipfs node whose routing system is _trusted explictly_
<jbenet>
i.e. you only say "i have X and i'm willing to serve it" to nodes you already _explicitly trust_. this is not today's code, but the protocol is made to make that possible.
<jbenet>
whyrusleeping daviddias: i think we should host ipfs meetups on the weekends (or close to the weekends)
<daviddias>
I'm like the idea
<jbenet>
would once a week be too much? it may be a good forcing function to get the "Weekly Community Hangout" (see https://github.com/ipfs/community/issues/28) organized finally.
<jbenet>
and a good forcing function to demo cool stuff.
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<daviddias>
As said, also brought my mic, cam and super fast drive if needed to record and edit any meetup or demo videos :)
<daviddias>
ah understood it wrong, thought you were saying while we are here in Seattle
<daviddias>
The folks from Meteor London (Oli, Alan, Alex and Chris) developed quite a recipe for a successful meetup. It is once a month and it is always show and tell
<daviddias>
hacks, apps and demos of new features of the framework
<jbenet>
daviddias: i was meaning while here in seattle
<jbenet>
we could make the community hangout more real
<jbenet>
i'd love to make it possible to have simultaneous hangouts, like project a portal to another room. but that may be more trouble than we have time for atm.
<daviddias>
we could prep a pre or after cascadiaJS event
<daviddias>
lots of folks will be in town for it
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<daviddias>
most people should be able to do an afternoon thing (although a meetup in the afternoon might be odd) on the 7th, or a evening meetup on the 11th
<lgierth>
get together with the seattle meshnet people
<whyrusleeping>
^
<cryptix>
hi ppl - finally back home - sad i couldnt make it to the sprint meetup - had to wait 4hrs in an endless line for train tickes. just arrived home after 15hrs of travel... maybe we can check up tomorrow
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<lgierth>
whyrusleeping: call for papers deadline is july 26th, are we gonna do something? :)
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<lgierth>
thefinn93: same for you of course!
<lgierth>
i recently learned to do handstands so that's probably gonna be my demo :/
<whyrusleeping>
lgierth: that would be pretty fun... i might do something
<jbenet>
sounds fun, we should
<lgierth>
jbenet: i can already see RMS asking about ipfs' license
<jbenet>
hahahaha
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<whyrusleeping>
its not GPLed, were boned
<jbenet>
lgierth: it's ok. i'll bring up what rms told me when i decided he'd gone off the deep end.
<lgierth>
now i'm all ears :P
<jbenet>
lgierth: through an escalating series of questions we got to: "me: ok, ok, suppose a child is in the middle of a desert in africa. he will starve to death, unless he uses an apple iPhone that he happens to carry, to get directions and get out. should he use it, or starve? -- rms: morally, he shouldn't use it. he should starve."
<lgierth>
mean question :P
<whyrusleeping>
lol
<jbenet>
not really, he was decrying people for using any apple products, and i started probing with much simpler things. we only escalated to this point because i was incredulous he would seriously recommend this
<whyrusleeping>
i mean, how did this child get into the middle of a desert in africa in the first place?
<lgierth>
"Food is the first thing. Morals follow on"
<whyrusleeping>
and how does he have an iPhone, but no food?
<lgierth>
by using the iphone
<whyrusleeping>
^ lol
<jbenet>
surely, in this situation it would be okay. but no-- and he said it in earnest too, he wasn't making allowance for "ok maybe he should use it, even if it's morally wrong and bad, to survive and then maybe bring down apple". it was a flat "no, that's morally wrong. die instead." the conversation couldn't progress.
<whyrusleeping>
idk, i'm a little dubious about this iPhone wielding child in the middle of the desert
<lgierth>
:>
<jbenet>
clearly up to no good :)
<whyrusleeping>
honestly, if you walk out into the middle of the desert with no food or water, and have no way out other than calling somebody with your apple iPhone (tm), that might just be natural selection
<thefinn93>
lgierth: sorry, 5 conversations at once + supposed to be coding. does this mean you'll be at SeaGL?
<thefinn93>
tht'd be sweet
<spikebike>
jbenet: heh, I've had similar quite frustrating discussions with RMS
<lgierth>
thefinn93: given october stands and i get my visa: sure thing!
<thefinn93>
sweet
<lgierth>
yeah! :)
<lgierth>
whyrusleeping: but natural selection doesn't happen on the individual level
<lgierth>
(i sometimes wish it did)
<spikebike>
jbenet: one was my use of Linux instead of GNU/Linux.
<lgierth>
can someone point me to a concrete swarm notifiee?
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<jbenet>
(type hackery to keep these functions isolated and not on the main DHT interface (which is already huge)
<lgierth>
perfect
<lgierth>
thanks
<jbenet>
krl: the electron-app menu comes up blank on osx. if i run it with "npm start" i get "[16155:0629/144752:WARNING:dns_config_service_posix.cc(292)] Failed to read DnsConfig."
<lgierth>
i'll fix that PR first thing tomorrow, going to bed
<lgierth>
nighty o/
<jbenet>
night!
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<dandroid>
hey guys, i have a question about go-ipfs implementation. do we have a specific data type that represents the list object as described in the IPFS paper or do we just implement that with a merkledag.Node?
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<jbenet>
hey dandroid the list object is abandoned per-se, and replaced by the unixfs file. so the objects as described in the paper, morphed into unixfs datastructure (dir + file (both can be indirect with fanout))
<jbenet>
so if you `ipfs add <big-file>` you'll get multiple merkledag.Nodes
<jbenet>
well, you'll see one output hash, but it points to many.
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<dandroid>
1 more: can a merkle dag Link point to a data blob (there a Block data type for that), instead of another merkle Dag Node (referring again to merkledag.Node)? reason i am asking is because the merkledag.Link has a pointer inside it to the merkledag.Node, was wondering if that implies that it can only be that