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* drmeister
's emacs segfaults at least a couple of times a day.
<drmeister>
emacs doesn't like hooking lldb into a that is also running in emacs
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<oleo>
morning
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<pseudonymous>
so apparently CL favours long, descriptive function names. To cut down on typing, is there any nice emacs functionalities I should enable ?
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<beach>
You can type things like (m-v-b and then C-c C-i and it will expand. Or you can use dynamic abbrevs by typing a prefix.
<beach>
Or just typing a prefix and C-c C-i will often work too.
<jackdaniel>
some people prefer macros like abbrv to save some typing and cognitive effort to read long names. as of emacs mode, this looks promising: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/AbbrevMode
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<beach>
Yes, abbrev mode is good as well.
<pseudonymous>
beach: did not know, thanks :)
<pseudonymous>
jackdaniel: very cool, I will look into that :)
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<palmtree>
Hi, I'd like to run bash commands inside a lisp program.. how can I do it? which libraries are still used today? thanks :)
<palmtree>
I see there are inferior-shell and trivial libraries..
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<scymtym>
palmtree: inferior-shell works reasonably well but has a learning curve for non-trivial things
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<palmtree>
scymtym: I just need to try it for basic things, nothing fancy
<jackdaniel>
you should have it already in your implementation
<jackdaniel>
external-program is something what I use personally, but you may need to take it from quicklisp for instance to use
<jackdaniel>
there was also a library shelisp which provided reader macros to mix cl and shell
<palmtree>
jackdaniel: *** there is no package with name "UIOP" ***
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<jackdaniel>
ah, try (require 'asdf) first maybe
<Shinmera>
jackdaniel: external-program is broken on some platform/implementation combinations
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<Shinmera>
It also appears to be abandonware, so :/
<palmtree>
jackdaniel: *** - LOAD: A file with name ASDF does not exist
<jackdaniel>
Shinmera: but it supports async programs well
<jackdaniel>
palmtree: what implementation do you use?
<palmtree>
btw I'm using clisp on sbcl...
<Shinmera>
jackdaniel: Recent UIOP does that better too.
<jackdaniel>
recent ASDF breaks for many cases. I get reports against ECL from time to time from people who insist on using upstream
<jackdaniel>
but maybe I shouldn't count UIOP as ASDF
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<jackdaniel>
palmtree: sbcl is one implementation, clisp is another one
<jackdaniel>
Common Lisp is a language
<jackdaniel>
where did you take from your SBCL?
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<palmtree>
I mean, I've read that there's alrady a library for shell scripting already implemented in sbcl.. but I'm already using clisp and trying to figure out from it
<jackdaniel>
ah, that's what you mean
<palmtree>
yep
<jackdaniel>
I'd recommend building ASDF (you may take it from common-lisp.net/projects/asdf
<jackdaniel>
)
<jackdaniel>
because you will be hardly able to load any library without it
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<jackdaniel>
on top of that I'd suggest installing quicklisp to have easy access to libraries
<palmtree>
jackdaniel: yeah I'm already installing quicklisp, I know that, I didn't know about asdf, thanks :)
<jackdaniel>
palmtree: or even better download and start portacle: https://portacle.github.io/ it should have everything bundled in one package
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<palmtree>
jackdaniel: oh, that's interesting
<pseudonymous>
anyone using http://quickdocs.org/clack-static-asset-middleware/ ? Especially that and ningle ? I can't seem to find a way to use it without breaking either my custom routes or access to static assets
<jackdaniel>
if you have any troubles it has a carying maintainer to support you ;) I'm digging back into my code, good luck :)
<palmtree>
jackdaniel: thanks!
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<Devon>
(loop with a = (list 0 1 2 3) for x in a when (zerop x) do (setq a (nconc a '(4))) collect x) => (0 1 2 3 4) or (0 1 2 3)?
<holycow>
god i love lisp. you couldn't write that as a single liner in python that was readable.
<Devon>
lol
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<pjb>
(loop with a = (list 0 1 2 3) for x in a when (zerop x) do (setq a (nconc a '(4))) collect x) #| --> (0 1 2 3 4) |#
<Devon>
(let ((a (list 0 1 2 3)) (b '())) (dolist (x a) (when (zerop x) (setq a (nconc a '(4)))) (push x b)) (nreverse b)) ; I guess both are explicitly undefined according to 3.6 Traversal Rules and Side Effects
<pjb>
you can write it as: (loop with a = (list 0 1 2 3) for xs = a then (cdr xs) for x = (car xs) while xs when (zerop x) do (setq xs (nconc xs '(4))) collect x) #| --> (0 1 2 3 4) |#
<pjb>
The problem with for x in a, is that loop could optimize the generated code, pre-loading a lot of elements of the list (assume some parallelism in the processor).
<Devon>
I'll use a DOLIST* macro to explicitly allow mutating the traversed list.
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<Devon>
`(loop with ,head = ,list while ,head do (let ((,var (pop ,head))) .,body))
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<drmeister>
What are the relative advantages and disadvantages of using #. vs load-time-value?
<drmeister>
These are two definitions of a function - the first uses #. and the second uses load-time-value
<drmeister>
Is there a compelling reason to use one or the other?
<beach>
The compiler might be able to do more for an object created using #.
<beach>
With load-time-value, the object is not available until the compiler has finished its work.
<drmeister>
Thank you.
<beach>
Anytime! :)
<Shinmera>
drmeister: #. and l-t-v aren't really comparable.
<pjb>
drmeister: it's not a question of advantages, it's a question of time!
<drmeister>
Shinmera - pjb: How so?
<pjb>
#. introduces an expression that is evaluated at read time.
<pjb>
This read time will probably occur at compilation time, in the compilation environment.
<drmeister>
I understand the implementation is very different - my question is more about "which should I choose if I have a list of constants that I want to compile into a function".
<pjb>
load-time-value is also read at read time, also at compilation time. But the expression is not evaluated then, but instead will be evaluated at load-time, in the run environment.
<Shinmera>
Why do you create the list there anyway? Just '("foo" "bar" "baz")
<Bike>
if they're constants in the sense that they're the same at compile time and run time, #. is fine
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<pjb>
drmeister: the difference between the results is that #.'… will return a literal object (since it's quoted), so the compiler may save it in read only memory.
<Shinmera>
drmeister: In the example you posted I don't see a reason to use either #. or l-t-v.
<pjb>
while your load time expression will return a mutable object.
<pjb>
So again, semantics differences will make you choose one or the other.
<drmeister>
Shinmera: Ah - your point is well taken.
<pjb>
Indeed, in your case, #. doesn't compute anything, so you can just write '(…).
<Shinmera>
drmeister: Also that #.'(list ..) is equivalent to (list ..), not '(list ..)
<pjb>
You could have '#.(generate-some-list)
<pjb>
'#.(list 1 2 3) == '(1 2 3)
<drmeister>
I spend a lot of time jumping between C++ and Common Lisp - I keep forgetting simple things - ugh.
<pjb>
But you may want to write '#.(loop for i below 1000000 collect i) instead of writing '(0 1 2 … 999999)
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<pjb>
drmeister: also, in terms of computing stuff, this takes time, so you may prefer if possible, to compute at compilation time and save the result, rather than computing at load-time (which may occur at run-time).
<pjb>
On the other hand, if you save executable images, load-time occurs before run-time, so it won't make a difference.
<pjb>
In the case of ecl it doesn't save executable images, but object and executable files, and load time occurs at run-time, when you run the executable.
<pjb>
So it also depend on the implementation, how the environment are related, and when the various times may occur.
<pjb>
err, actually #. expression must be evaluated in the evaluation environment, to be precise (not necessarily the same as the compilation or the run-time environment of course).
<drmeister>
Thank you.
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<shka_>
beach: good evening!
<beach>
shka_: Hey! What's up?
<shka_>
I've been working on documentation (the one with deeply flawed grammar)
<beach>
Good!
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<shka_>
beach: in fact i just published new version
<Josh_2>
Can't speak for the code, but as for the aesthetics, I think the h* need to be slightly taller, they are all cramped on my 1080p monitor. And maybe make the vertical menu so that the items are hidden until you click a drop down button or something
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<shka_>
i'm not that good with HTML to be honest
<shka_>
I will try to do something about when i will have a little bit more time
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<guicho>
huuuu
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<guicho>
for gods sake, if anyone feel you cannot maintain a repo then give a push access to someone...
<loke`>
guicho: who are you talking about?
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<guicho>
sorry, sort of rant
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<guicho>
I might want to say this: We as lispers may go inactive at any time due to various reasons, and we are not many. So if you have any repo that has some users then you should surely give the push access to someone you trust as a means of risk hedgeing. Even before you feel inactive.
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<guicho>
I recently feel this is getting more serious. Fukamachi is not always healthy and was inactive for like 4 months. (He's ok now though.)
<guicho>
In most cases people go inactive without notice. tpapp recently retired from CL but it was a rare case.
<shka_>
you can fork a repo
<guicho>
shka_: still, if it is a quicklisp repo you have to ask zach.
<guicho>
and things diverge
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<guicho>
maybe just my feeling, but taking over someone's project (assume he doesnt respond to the email) feel uneasy.
<guicho>
he = original author
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<beach>
shka_: I currently have visitors, and will have very little time until the end of next week.
<shka_>
no rush!
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<shka_>
I will have bunch of other stuff to take care of before i can even release first version
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<shka_>
so, it's fine, really
<shka_>
also, have a good weekend
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<scymtym>
guicho: at least tpapp's let-plus should be resolved via sharplispers soon
<guicho>
scymtym: that's good.
<guicho>
cont. We know that we lispers are generally good coders. so giving access to more than oneself should not be a big deal.
<rocx>
would you say the same about amateur lispists?
<guicho>
rocx: no.
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<guicho>
rocx: but we know plenty of good lispers.
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<Josh_2>
am ametueeer
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<guicho>
Josh_2: well, as a prequisite, you should be an author of a library which has some users. If this is satisfied the person should be good enough.
<Shinmera>
I'd gladly let anyone else do my job of maintaining stuff, but I don't think anyone's gonna sign up for that :^)
<guicho>
Josh_2: sorry my logic is messed up.
<guicho>
Josh_2: so nevermind
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<Shinmera>
I can't even get anyone else to just be interested in adding features or testing things, so
<guicho>
Shinmera: Well I sometimes use your css selector lib for web scraping, I never encountered a bug but if I had one and when you became inactive, then having the push access rather than waiting for the PR to be approved is a lot better.
<Shinmera>
guicho: Sure. The point is that doing this practically means signing up for maintainership. Given that most people already have their hands full with stuff of their own, that's hard to agree to for many, I expect.
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<guicho>
Shinmera: True. Everyone is busy. I might want to point that there are ups and downs in busy-ness.
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<Shinmera>
Well, it's not like I particularly choose to be busy
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<jackdaniel>
I think it is more like a means to have a backdoor to the canonical repository
<jackdaniel>
does github allow giving particular *group* master access to the repository not owned by this group?
<guicho>
In my case, I spend most of my time doing expreiments, collecting results, writing papers. This year I was mostly writing python, bash, latex. but I have free time recently so Im creating lots of lisp repos this months. maybe just me, but in this period I can resolve issues in other people's repos.
<jackdaniel>
that could solve the problem, such group could grant privigile to the person who signs up to maitain repository (if the original maintainer disappears)
<guicho>
and I expect this kind of busy-free pattern is common to some extent
* Shinmera
shrugs
<Shinmera>
If anyone wants to sign up to maintain some of my stuff I'd be all ears is all I'm gonna say.
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* Shinmera
goes back to losing Splatoon matches
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