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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<basket>
Good morning, beach
<Josh_2>
Morning
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<drmeister>
How do lisp implementations save images of themselves to files?
<drmeister>
Clasp writes out code and data for each top level form and then plays them back at load time. I’m looking for something better that doesn’t require support from the gc
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<drmeister>
I think of it like a painting. Clasp saves every brush stroke even the ones that are covered up by later stokes. Then it replays them when it loads.
<Zhivago>
I think that is not sufficient to save the image of a running machine.
<Zhivago>
Particularly where that machine has read from a file or opened a socket or whatever.
<drmeister>
I can’t save the image of a running machine because I don’t have the support of the gc.
<Zhivago>
Are you limiting it to the case of a machine which has just loaded stuff before running stuff?
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<drmeister>
I’m not sure what the trade offs are. I would imagine starting up a single thread and opening files at startup.
<Zhivago>
(vaguely equivalent to C/C++ linkage)
<Zhivago>
Or maybe, rather -- what problem do you intend to solve with saving an image?
<drmeister>
Faster startup and solving painful bootstrapping circularity issues.
<Zhivago>
Sounds like the problem of linkage, then?
<drmeister>
A needs B and B needs A transitively.
<Zhivago>
In which case, perhaps you can turn it into load-forms for each symbol?
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<drmeister>
I’ve been thinking that I have a symbol table and a bunch of code and classes, load time values etc. if I inventory them and write code to save and restore them - would that do the job
<Zhivago>
Sounds reasonable. If you evaluate the symbols in those forms before saving you may avoid circularity issues.
<Zhivago>
Although that would destroy identity in some cases, so never mind.
<Zhivago>
We would expect true (EQL *a* *b*), but if *b* were restored by generating code which produced a value equivalent to that of *a*, then (EQL *a* *b*) would become false.
<drmeister>
I see - it would restart with two separate conces if I did it naively.
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<Zhivago>
And then could add (setf *a* *b*) after that to show that if you fix that problem you re-introduce the order of effects issue.
<Zhivago>
But you could be a little more clever and have the sharing of sub-structure preserved by the regeneration code.
<drmeister>
What about having the gc compact all live objects, write them out, and then reload and relocate them.
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<drmeister>
I’d like to do that but I have to get hold of the raven brook folks to get some library support
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<Zhivago>
Do you really need the GC for that?
<Zhivago>
The only case I can think of would be where you have running threads or values hidden in closures.
<drmeister>
I’m not sure. It’s easier if things aren’t moving around
<Zhivago>
And since you control the closure representation, I think you can solve the latter.
<Zhivago>
I'd think of the requirement that there be no running threads at the point of save-image.
<drmeister>
Values hidden in closures?
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<drmeister>
Clasp has special issues. It represents objects using 450 c++ classes. They have all sorts of data hidden in them.
<dmiles>
*nod* .. in that case they are pointered.. i was hoping to not globally allocate simple vecotrs
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<dmiles>
(not give them a pointer address)
<dmiles>
so.. i know the example i worried about..
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<dmiles>
(eq #(1 2 ) #(1 2 ))
<dmiles>
==> T
<dmiles>
but really that should be "ok" ?
<dmiles>
if i globally allocate it returns NIL
<dmiles>
(as they would become pointers)
<dmiles>
in a way i sorta got for free that beloved identity ;/ (that not sure i really wanted :P)
<dmiles>
(as the fast EQ)
<mrottenkolber>
wat?
<mrottenkolber>
(eq #(1 2 ) #(1 2 )) → NIL
<dmiles>
i have a bug in my impl that made → T
<mrottenkolber>
oh ok
<dmiles>
i fixed the bug with horible slow code
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<dmiles>
but i could have fixed it by heaping everything
<dmiles>
horrible slow code " is_eq(X,Y):- X==Y , (\+ compound(X)-> true ; \+ \+ ((gensym(cookie,Cook),setarg(1,X,Cook),X==Y)))." compare datastrcuure value.. if they are the same poke a hole in one and see if they are still the same
<dmiles>
but at least i guess i have 2-3 different ideas to work arround.
<dmiles>
i am asking if (eq #(1 2 ) #(1 2 )) → T melts the universe or not
<loke>
dmiles: It does.
<loke>
dmiles: It does, in the sense that a compliant CL implementation can return either NIL or T for that form.
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<dmiles>
what about (eq (cons 1 2 ) (cons 1 2 )) → T ?
<loke>
dmiles: No. That must return NIL
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<loke>
dmiles: That depends on what MAKE-POINT dfoes.
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<loke>
If it's a resut of a DEFSTRUCT, then that comparison should return NIL
<dmiles>
for standard-object its T or MIL ?
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<dmiles>
(erm DEFCLASS)
<loke>
dmiles: No. EQ should return NIL if the objects are different. MAKE-WHATEVER creates a _new_ instance, so those two instances are distinctly different.
<dmiles>
ok.. sorry if you impliscitly answered this already... (eq (list 1 2 ) (list 1 2 ))
<loke>
dmiles: NIL
<loke>
(let* ((x (list 1 2 3)) (y x)) (eq x xy)) ⇒ T
<loke>
dmiles: No. It's guaranteed to return NIL... The relevant quote from the Hyperspec: “subseq always allocates a new sequence for a result; it never shares storage with an old sequence.”
<dmiles>
ahah i searched for "copy" and didnt find
<dmiles>
oh copy is there
<dmiles>
(silly me searched for it quoted)
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<dmiles>
ok soo... (eq #c(3 -4) #c(3 -4)) (eq #(3 -4) #(3 -4)) are undefined.. are their any others you can think of off hand?
<pjb>
dmiles: there is ansi-tests.
<pjb>
(eq 1 1) (eq #\a #\a) are undefined too.
<pjb>
(eq #(3 -4) #(3 -4)) is undefined but for another reason!
<pjb>
(let ((x #(3 -4))) (eq x x)) --> T is defined
<pjb>
(let ((x 1)) (eq x x)) is undefined.
<dmiles>
oh (eq "Foo" "Foo") undefined
<pjb>
dmiles: the reason why (eq "Foo" "Foo") and(eq #(3 -4) #(3 -4)) are undefined, is because "Foo" and #(3 -4) are literal objects, and when file-compiling, they may be coalesced to the same object (and put in read-only memory).
<dmiles>
other reason? /me sitting at edge of seat
<pjb>
(let ((x (make-string 3 :initial-element #\F))) (eq x x)) --> T is defined.
<pjb>
(eq '#.(make-string 3 :initial-element #\F) '#.(make-string 3 :initial-element #\F)) is not defined, because both strings "FFF" created at read-time (they're not EQ, there are two of them), but they are both compiled as literal objects because of the quote, and file-compile can coalese them to a single and same string "FFF".
<pjb>
basically: before file-compile it would return NIL, after file-compile it can return T.
<pjb>
dmiles: in a first version, you could take all the shortcuts allowed by CL… (defun eq (x y) (eql x y)) (defun delete (…) (remove …)) ; etc.
<dmiles>
right on
<dmiles>
ha lordy i just found http://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/doc_for?object=same_term/2 slightly cheaper than " is_eq(X,Y):- X==Y , (\+ compound(X)-> true ; \+ \+ ((gensym(cookie,Cook),setarg(1,X,Cook),X==Y)))." but i swear that was there a year ago
<dmiles>
wasnt there*
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<Success>
it's nlp and i crafted both sentences, they're definately not homework :p
<Success>
although i raelly should be doing my homework rn
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<Success>
oh yeah the stupid online thing is down
<nyef>
Sounds like you should be doing some more of your background reading as well.
<beach>
Success: Your question is hard to answer because you haven't told us what operations are allowed. I mean, I could give you a bunch of CARs and CDRs that together will access the correct data, but you can probably do that yourself.
<beach>
Success: I am also wondering whether ($ $) and (. .) indicate that some information was not printed.
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<Success>
beach, meh i can't really, those would be sufficient
<beach>
Success: How can you be doing Common Lisp if you don't even know what CAR and CDR do?
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<Aliv3>
sorry i know what car and cdr is:p
<Aliv3>
i just don't have much functionally experience with lisp
<beach>
Then just take either the CAR or the CDR of the expression, and if the information is in the result, you chose the right operation.
<beach>
Continue until the information you want is the only one returned.
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<devon>
Probably lacking some binary or library, eof reading some string, probably output of some attempt to run some program. No biggie, just wanted a 1st order histogram of some really strange data out of curiosity.
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<Xach>
devon: the gsl library is a big prerequisite.
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<kami>
Hello #lisp
<kami>
pjb: should I be able to (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader) ?
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<Josh_2>
Pretty sure it is no longer on quicklisp
<Josh_2>
You can clone it from git and then add it to local projects in your quicklisp install folder, then it should work
<kami>
Josh_2: Thank you!
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<Xach>
edi's server crash has really caused me some problems :(
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<dwts>
jackdaniel: it's clear that C's version offered an improvement. I'm not experienced enough to decide if "importing" it to lisp is an improvement but the example looks quite similar
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<_death>
(constantia:out (:n 5 "*"))
<dwts>
:P
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<nirved>
devon: (let ((count 5)) (format t "~v,,,'*<~>~%" count))
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<truename>
(dotimes(i 5)(princ #\*))
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<devon>
nirved: cool, thanks, always more obscure corners in format.
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<smurfrobot>
what are the differences between cmucl and sbcl?
<jackdaniel>
smurfrobot: sbcl is a cmucl fork. sbcl goals were to clean up bootstrapping process and some internals as well as to get rid of some contribs
<jackdaniel>
further development diverged both codebases further
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<smurfrobot>
are the compilers similar?
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<jackdaniel>
sbcl is more popular and has more developers, yet cmucl is still developed as well
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<jackdaniel>
sbcl compiler comes from python (cmucl compiler). if you want to compare how similar they are I advise to examine source code. they are probably different in details but still similar in general design (just guessing)
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<jackdaniel>
I bet you'll get more in-depth answers on #sbcl channel
<koenig>
Are you the developer (a developer) of ECL? I've never been able to completely understand your relationship to ECL just from channel context.
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<White_Flame>
it would be nice if it could be fit to a timeline of some sort
<jackdaniel>
koenig: yes, I'm maintaining and developing ecl
<White_Flame>
and things like TI explorer and Genera have non-CL shared heritage, which might be nice to include
<jackdaniel>
White_Flame: another idea was to put pre-CL predecessors - I had no idea how to fit it nicely
<White_Flame>
imagine that :)
<jackdaniel>
right, and cmucl was previously spice lisp
<jackdaniel>
etc
<koenig>
Thanks for your work on ECL, then. I have enjoyed using it in a couple different places. I have a hare-brained idea of making ECL into a WeeChat plugin "when I have some free time".
<jackdaniel>
heh, glad you like it :)
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<whoman>
jackdaniel, Bike: ah, thank you for clarification =)
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<whoman>
one of us was using ECL to enhance one of the Quake 3 engines, too. may have been aeth
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<Somelauw>
I'm actually interested in emacs-lisp, but since clos is more of a common lisp thing, I'll ask here. How to make private variables and methods and how to modify the constructor?
<jackdaniel>
have it got enhanced? I bet his missle bazooka stopped aiming correctly because of that ;-)
<Somelauw>
I couldn't find many examples
<jackdaniel>
Somelauw: you don't make them private. You may skip providing accessor for them, or name it %foo (% means, that operator is internal)
<jackdaniel>
regarding constructor, you may define method initialize-instance specialized on your class
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<jackdaniel>
if you really want to make it private, you could use uninterned symbols for slots I suppose, but that would be awkward and requires some work to add ways to access the slot
<Somelauw>
jackdaniel: so for variables, the style is to user get-attribute, set-attribute - never slot-value? What about private methods?
<nyef>
... And doesn't actually stop someone with a metaobject protocol from going in and opening things up anyway.
<jackdaniel>
Somelauw: you simply don't export them from the package
<jackdaniel>
eventually you add % prefix
<jackdaniel>
nyef: right
<Somelauw>
ah, so in common lisp you explicitly export get/set/accesor methods to make them public?
<jackdaniel>
you explicitly export your application interface from the package
<jackdaniel>
packages in CL have symbols which may be exported or internal
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<jackdaniel>
if it is internal, then accessing it requries extra double colon like package::foo (while exported symbol may be accessed like package:bar)
<whoman>
is that from within the package, the double colon?
<Somelauw>
C++ also uses :: for namespaces, is that the same thing
<jackdaniel>
namespaces and packages are different things. I think you should do some research on your own about common lisp package system
<Somelauw>
I'm mostly used to python/java, but have heard about other languages
<jackdaniel>
right, if you are interested in the topic, it might be worth reading about it on published resources
<jackdaniel>
minion: tell Somelauw about pcl
<minion>
Somelauw: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<uint>
I just want to note :: should be generally avoided since it's for accessing internals of a package from outside of it
<Somelauw>
but that book is 12 years old?
<Xach>
Yes, even though it is very new, it is still very good.
<whoman>
how old is common lisp
<Somelauw>
but C++11 didn't even exist back then
* whoman
will forever never know about :: if its for inside the package or outside
<jackdaniel>
common lisp packages didn't change much since 94
<whoman>
yeah.. Land of Lisp book appeals to me, i wish i could afford it
<jackdaniel>
Somelauw: fact that this book is still actual proves, how solid common lisp standard is ;-) no go and read some, it is a perfect resource to learn about programming in CL
<uint>
: is for accessing the interface (exported symbols) of a package, :: is for accessing any symbols within the package
<jackdaniel>
and it has very nice insights into CLOS, so that's worth reading too
<mfiano>
whoman: if you're inside a package and want to access its symbols, you don't need any package qualifier, single or double colon.
<jackdaniel>
*it's worth reading even more, since you are interested in it
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<whoman>
mfiano, okay, that is what i figured. thanks=)
<whoman>
(cant test it for myself atm)
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<smurfrobot>
I guess maybe i should read the cmucl compiler code b4 the sbcl it seems to have clearer comments. there is a lot of stuff in the sbcl that are FIXME type comments.
<Somelauw>
i seem to have already read some chapters of that book, by googling(duckduckgo) "common lisp ...", but never in full and didn't even realise it
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<smurfrobot>
Is on lisp a good book to learn common lisp from?
<Xach>
smurfrobot: no
<smurfrobot>
what's wrong with it?
<jackdaniel>
it is aimed at people who already know common lisp
<jackdaniel>
and want to understand it better
<Xach>
smurfrobot: it has a peculiar idea about the worthwhile parts of CL. and it gets the performance model wrong.
<Xach>
It is probably not especially harmful to read in concert with other CL books.
<smurfrobot>
i have successful lisp and ansi common lisp as well.
<smurfrobot>
on lisp i managed to get from the library
<jackdaniel>
ansi common lisp is a very good book imho (especially the excercises)
<smurfrobot>
practical common lisp looks pretty good from what i have read might buy a tree copy.
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<smurfrobot>
maybe i will go through the ansi book first and perhaps i won't need pcl.
<jackdaniel>
pcl is worth reading even when you get through ansi common lisp
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<Somelauw>
I have secretely learned a lot about "scheme", "emacs-lisp" and "clojure" instead of common lisp.
<jackdaniel>
good for you
<Younder>
For the more advanced reader Eddi Weitz book Common Lisp recipes is a good reference work.
<smurfrobot>
how does lisp compare to ML?
<smurfrobot>
i heard ML is often suggested as a good language to write compilers in.
<Xach>
ansi common lisp is not good as a first book, in my experience
<smurfrobot>
xach: do you prefer pcl?
<Xach>
very much.
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<Xach>
it is because of the bias against packages, clos, and loop that makes me say so
<smurfrobot>
ok perhaps i will get a tree copy of that.
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<Younder>
ML is a bit old, most people today use OCAML. It a purer functional programming language than Lisp which is more multi paradigm.
<smurfrobot>
how different is ocaml from ml? my understanding is the type system isn't quite the same.
<smurfrobot>
reynolds (use to think) pretty highly of ML. I read paper "beyond ml" by him.
<Younder>
google ocaml vs ml
<Xach>
This is not the place to discuss
<mfiano>
It looks like the printing press is 2 hours from me, so I just received my Cyber Monday PCL and CLR books I ordered. Best $25 I probably ever spent - $105 saved.
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<smurfrobot>
CLR?
<smurfrobot>
is there some special deal at the moment on both books?
<mfiano>
Common Lisp Recipes. All Apress books _were_ $12.50usd from Friday until yesterday. Deal's over.
<jackdaniel>
common lisp recipes, new book written by Edmund Weitz (very good one, I have it on my shelf)
<whoman>
hmm. i would at least make a (defmacro defun-with-slots (name args slots &body) ...
<smurfrobot>
oh nm guess i missed it :-(
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<jmercouris>
Can someone clarify what M-expressions are exactly?
<jmercouris>
I've read a little bit, but it's not clear to me what purpose they serve? to implement an algol like language on top of lisp?
<oleo>
jackdaniel, me too
<Shinmera>
Early on it was believed that an M-expression syntax would be more "natural" and generally better than s-expressions.
<jmercouris>
But what does it look like?
<jmercouris>
was any form of it ever implemented an example I can look at?
<jmercouris>
From first glance this a surprisingly easy to read paper, I guess they had to explain literally everything as there was no background knowledge about programming tht one could assume back then
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<jmercouris>
Any bindings/libs that utilize CFFI are essentially just convenience wrappers to make something easier to use in CL, or is my understanding incorrect? e.g. something like this: https://github.com/crategus/cl-cffi-gtk is using CFFI to make a more lisp friendly interface to GTK
<Shinmera>
Uh, without the bindings how would you call GTK at all?
<jmercouris>
Someone wrote the bindings right? So you should be able to write your own bindings theoretically
<jmercouris>
cl-cffi-gtk does not actually implement CFFI, so anything possible in cl-cffi-gtk should be possible using just CFFI right?
<jmercouris>
that's what I am sayin
<Shinmera>
Well yes?
<jmercouris>
Ok, I just wanted to clarify the point that there was nothing inherently special about the bindings, maybe something I didn't know, thanks
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<Shinmera>
Bindings libraries usually do one or two things: 1) implement the, well, bindings to all the C functions and structs that the foreign system exposes and 2) implement a high-level wrapper to make the library "feel at home" in Lisp.
<jmercouris>
More or less I am thinking about this because the GTK bindings for gtk+ webkit appear outdated, and I will probably need to write some myself
<Shinmera>
The first part is usually boring and tedious unless you use something like cl-autowrap to generate it for you.
<jmercouris>
Also, the bindings should still be valid for an old piece of software as long as the foreign interface doesn't change correct?
<Shinmera>
And the second part difficult to get right.
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<Shinmera>
Yes
<Shinmera>
The bindings are basically a replication of the C headers.
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<jmercouris>
okay,cool, I think I get it, at least the very basic basic idea
<jmercouris>
always helps to have a concrete example
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<jmercouris>
Xach: Do you remove packages from quicklisp sometimes when making new releases?
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<Shinmera>
I have more complicated bindings libraries, but it's usually mostly the same stuff, just.. well. More.
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<Xach>
jmercouris: yes.
<jmercouris>
Xach: Is there a way I can see which packages you've removed release to release?
<jmercouris>
some sort of changelog?
<Xach>
jmercouris: blog.quicklisp.org is the place where it is posted
<jmercouris>
Shinmera: A basic example is more than enough for me to get started, thanks
<Shinmera>
jmercouris: When you do a dist update it'll also show you the removed and added systems.
<jmercouris>
I'm afraid doing a dist update will break my software, as one of my users is complaining that something does not exist in quicklisp anymore :|
<Shinmera>
dist updates can be rolled back.
<Shinmera>
that's part of the point of quicklisp.
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<jmercouris>
Perhaps I'll have to find a subsitute lib
<Xach>
jmercouris: you don't have to update if you don't want to.
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<Xach>
What is the thing that does not exist any more?
<jmercouris>
I guess not, but I don't want to force my users to use old versions
<jmercouris>
one might argue that Roles.Customer will be instantly evalued to "Customer" or that it's the same notion, but it kind of is, kind of isn't
<Xach>
That is not the same concept at all.
<jmercouris>
Sure, that's the one that everyone in industry uses
<Xach>
It is inapplicable loading things by name.
<jmercouris>
Also, I don't see how an enum is not extremely similar to an interned symbol
<jmercouris>
but whatever
<jmercouris>
If you took it as a jab at you, don't, I was just expressing a preference against strings with special values
<jmercouris>
However you'd like to call them, I call them magical strings
<Xach>
Ok. That is incorrect terminology.
<Xach>
I don't think it's good to persist.
<_death>
I think the point behind defining such constants is that if you have a typo when referencing them, you'll get a compile time error.. when it comes to ql:quickload, you'll get a runtime error if you have a typo in the string or keyword.. with a keyword you may use completion, but it's unlikely to happen in this particular scenario
<jmercouris>
No, it definitely isn't, that's the common industry usage
<Somelauw>
the way to make things private in elisp seems to be to use -- in names
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<Shinmera>
I've never heard of magic strings, but I have of magic numbers. The "magic" is because it is not apparent where the number comes from or how it's determined. This is not at all the case here, because it's a name. It denotes what you mean in itself, so there's no magic to it.
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<jmercouris>
Shinmera: This is actually a compelling argument
<jmercouris>
I guess there is no place to define the symbols before one loads a system
<jmercouris>
Unless of course all the symbols were included as part of quicklisp as soon as quicklisp loads, but that's probably not desirable
<_death>
Shinmera: well, another point to these constants is that they let you distinguish things that happen to be represented as the same string.. but again this isn't relevant to the ql:quickload scenario
<jmercouris>
_death: Are you suggesting I've had too many cups of java in my life :D?
<_death>
jmercouris: yes, this kind of thing is certainly a javaism..
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<_death>
lacking symbols, they use poor man's namespacing like that
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<whoman>
symbolic programming
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<pjb>
pmc_: now rather the question would be why do you care about simple-vectors?
<pjb>
pmc_: there are some libraries written by sbcl'ers (not lispers), that expect some overly specific vector types. This is bad. Don't use them.
<pmc_>
I noticed (svref "abc" 0) doesn't work on strings... so I was interested in simple vectors. :)
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<pjb>
There's (char "abc" 0) #| --> #\a |#
<pmc_>
right.
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<pjb>
But you would never use them, just use aref.
<pjb>
if the compiler can determine at compilation time that the sequence is a simple vector or a string, then it'll be smart enough to replace aref by svref or char, and otherwise, you will do want aref, to be able to handle any vector type you'll get at run-time.
<pjb>
So basically you should never use svref or char or similar overly type-specific function.
<pmc_>
keep it general. ok.
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<Ober>
what is it roswell brings to the table being written in C, that a shell script can't easily do in a fraction of this code?
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<pjb>
Ober: and the link with CL is?
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<Xach>
It's possible that the person who made it is willing to work on it in C, but not willing in another language.
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<Ober>
pjb: the link to cl from roswell?
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<pjb>
yes.
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<pjb>
oh, I see; but there's lisp code in there too.
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<Ober>
pjb no more than a link to you asking folks in #linpeople about your hung scsi devices [10/27/00 @ 02:59:57] <pjb> dev/st0 isnt responding
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<Ober>
pjb: given the author of hit and the only users of it are most likely here.
<pjb>
The only reason I can see, could be for bootstrap reasons. Otherwise, it seems that a lot of C code could have been written better in CL.
<pjb>
Since it's a tool to install CL implementations…
<Ober>
thus my question
<Ober>
figured there was a technical reason I was missing
<pjb>
Now of course, you made the bootstrap more complex, since you need to compile and install a C compiler, and for this, you need to have a C compiler already installed (or eventually, when I'll have completed by C->CL compiler, a CL compiler).
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<pjb>
(jj, of course C compilers are pre-installed on most posix systems).
<Xach>
I don't think many of the roswell users are here.
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* Ober
checks the banlist
<Ober>
someone here had recommended it
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<aeth>
Most developers probably have C compilers, even if they don't develop in C