<kristianpaul>
lekernel:i tought it was not acepted
<terpstra>
lekernel, last names for Gaetan and Bleno?
<lekernel>
wolfspraul: I don't remember if we decided to engrave a milkymist logo on the cases?
<lekernel>
thinking more about it, I think we should have one on the top
<wolfspraul>
he :-)
<wolfspraul>
yes I fully agree - the problem is execution
<wolfspraul>
you and roh are probably best suited to make it happen
<wolfspraul>
no need to send samples to me or others
<wolfspraul>
if you and roh decide to go ahead with this, my part would be in two areas:
<wolfspraul>
1) I am willing to share some of the costs, but we need to keep it strictly under control, I mostly can compensate some material or small costs
<wolfspraul>
2) if we do go ahead with it, I will wait a little longer with another round of picture taking
<wolfspraul>
until you can send me one of the final, engraved, top sides so that the photos show the final version
<wolfspraul>
what do you think?
<lekernel>
we can have a discrete logo, no need to take another round of pictures...
<wolfspraul>
discrete logo?
<wolfspraul>
not 'another round' - I planned to take better pictures with all the feedback from the last shooting anyway
<lekernel>
sorry, wrong word. I mean, not prominent
<wolfspraul>
but if an engraved top is coming, I'll wait for that first
<wolfspraul>
I'm just explaining my part in this endeavor
<wolfspraul>
the main person to pull it off is roh
<lekernel>
the current pictures are ok, I think. what more do you want?
<wolfspraul>
probably needs some experiments into what looks good, since looking good is the main point
<wolfspraul>
yes they are, that's why the second round has not yet happened :-)
<wolfspraul>
I keep a 'known issues' list somewhere
<wolfspraul>
from dirty pcb (inside the case), to hand-written label on vga connector, to depth issues, to what not
<wolfspraul>
so if we are adding a logo on the top acrylic, that would be one more item on that list
<wolfspraul>
I think a good looking logo would be great, definitely
<lekernel>
the cases for rc3 aren't made yet, right?
<wolfspraul>
they are 'in the making'
<wolfspraul>
I made a down-payment, roh has already sourced some material.
<wolfspraul>
maybe he is already working on things like this shielded metal plate, the buttons, etc.
<wolfspraul>
the lasering hasn't happened yet
<wolfspraul>
actually, good that you are there - the one open item roh and I still had were labels for the 3 buttons
<wolfspraul>
right now only the leds have labels, the buttons are unlabeled
<wolfspraul>
I'm sure most people will think that render/on/standby are the labels for the buttons
<wolfspraul>
do you have a proposal for the button labels?
<wolfspraul>
I was thinking about L ON R for left, on, right
<lekernel>
yeah, L ON R
<lekernel>
we agreed on that already, no?
<wolfspraul>
forgot :-)
<wolfspraul>
but now it's done
<lekernel>
how's the outer box going btw?
<wolfspraul>
don't know, some work was started but I need to take a look
<lekernel>
who's doing it? Yi?
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
I don't think the box is on the critical path
<wolfspraul>
the one thing we need to discuss is the design of the box
<wolfspraul>
black or white? unfortunately I know very little about retail box design, too bad. so unless someone else knows we have to guess or just do what others are doing :-)
<lekernel>
white
<lekernel>
our pictures are white ...
<terpstra>
lekernel, poke
<terpstra>
i need last names for Gaetan and Bleno, please :)
<lekernel>
terpstra: I answered you by mail and /query
<xiangfu>
base on your comments. thanks for comments. :)
<lekernel>
told you, traveling to Darmstadt is a major difficulty for most people, especially in the morning =]
<terpstra>
meh ;)
<terpstra>
paris is only like 6 hours from here, no?
<terpstra>
5 horus even
<lekernel>
don't tell that to me ;-)
<terpstra>
so to be here at 10:00am, leave at 4:30am to be safe
<terpstra>
means going to bed at 9-10pm. quite reasonable :)
<lekernel>
we'll be departing from Metz anyway. so even closer :)
<terpstra>
2 hours!
<lekernel>
yes
<terpstra>
bah
<terpstra>
and you can go as fast as you like since it's within germany
<terpstra>
so ... like 1 hour with sufficiently fast car ;)
<lekernel>
ah, those Germans :)
<lekernel>
I don't drive a car that goes this fast ;)
<terpstra>
you cross over via Saarbruecken?
<lekernel>
don't know... I'm just planning to use the GPS *g*
<terpstra>
...
<terpstra>
i'd forgotten how all those roads in france cost money to drive on
<lekernel>
but yeah, i'll probably go through Saarbrueken
<lekernel>
yeah it's horrible
<terpstra>
don't you people pay taxes?
<lekernel>
those shit roads double my travel costs every time I'm driving in france
<lekernel>
oh, it's coming in Germany too
<terpstra>
whaT?!
<lekernel>
you know ... privatizing of roads
<wolfspraul>
then you'll pass by my hometown Homburg, about 30km past Saarbruecken...
<lekernel>
right now they collect money from truck drivers only
<terpstra>
you lie
<terpstra>
i asked my colleagues
<terpstra>
no paying for roads!
<terpstra>
just like no speed limits
<terpstra>
=D
<lekernel>
still the motorways are still being privatized (as they are in France) and those companies collect money from trucks atm
<wolfspraul>
not yet, luckily they uber-engineered the toll collecting system so badly that they have trouble scaling it to the number of cars (it's for trucks only now)
<terpstra>
deutschingenierungstechnik!
<wolfspraul>
but unfortunately Moore's law will help them, so I guess eventually no matter how inefficient and bloated their collecting system is, it will work for all 40 million cars in Germany :-)
<wolfspraul>
and once that's the case, I'd say at most 2 years later they will start charging
<terpstra>
meine kollege sind sehr skeptisch
<wolfspraul>
lekernel: do you have any ideas or drafts/sketches for box design?
<wolfspraul>
just so we don't do something that you will immediately dismiss :-)
<lekernel>
terpstra: there even was an article in the press (that I can't find atm but I'll email it to you when I do) about increasing accidents on the hamburg/bremen motorway due to construction works done wrong by the company to maximize their ROI
<terpstra>
i can believe that
<terpstra>
but i don't think germans will put up with tolls on roads
<terpstra>
there would be an uproar just like if they tried to put speed limits on all the roads
<lekernel>
wolfspraul: i'm thinking about some nokia boxes
<wolfspraul>
I think we should use the chance to explain our product a little
<wolfspraul>
one rule I vaguely remember from the pros is that you always at most talk about 3 things/features on the box
<lekernel>
yes
<wolfspraul>
so there will be a product shot, from the ones we have already
<wolfspraul>
then maybe some screenshots?
<wolfspraul>
and maybe an explanation of what it can do, up to 3 features
<wolfspraul>
that was my thinking, roughly
<lekernel>
xiangfu: you can commit your patch
<lekernel>
looks good
<xiangfu>
lekernel: ok.
<lekernel>
wolfspraul: yeah, screenshots, and maybe a schematics of how to use the camera
<xiangfu>
lekernel: about "Remove curr_layout and input_update_keyboard_layout(), and call
<xiangfu>
sysconfig_get_keyboard_layout() in get_keycode().
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: will it be sold in shops ? if not, the box doesn't matter much
<xiangfu>
if move the update_keyboard_layout to get_keycode. that will called when any key pressed.
<lekernel>
xiangfu: ?!????
<lekernel>
just remove that function
<xiangfu>
ok
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: well I hope we can get into some small specialized retail shops, definitely
<lekernel>
man, keep it simple
<lekernel>
no need to duplicate data all over the place
<lekernel>
this is a bait for bugs
<wolfspraul>
we need to bypass the entire tech feature-compare-mania and directly explain and sell the product to music and video lovers
<wolfspraul>
so the box is quite important, say someone takes the box into his hands, and reads what it says, looks around on the box design and tries to understand what this product might be good for
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: thought of doing an image that shows the data flow, as i suggested a few days ago ?
<wolfspraul>
not sure what you mean with data flow exactly
<wolfspraul>
the key point is that this box creates real-time video output based on music input
<wolfspraul>
that it comes with xx effects preinstalled and that you can download more works/effects from the Internet for free
<lekernel>
wolfspraul: we need to show the camera setup
<lekernel>
using the camera brings a LOT
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: show a "live" scene, camera, arrow from camera into the mm1. some speakers/microphone, arrow from sound into the mm1. then the generated image, showing elements of the live scene plus effects. (of course, all constructed from still images, stylized drawings, etc.)
<wolfspraul>
alright, that's #3 :-)
<lekernel>
audio is less important
<wolfspraul>
we can only talk about 3 things on the box
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: it's video+audio input. did you notice how hardly anyone on /. realized that ? :)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: maybe show the data flows in a big picture, then have three small items: effect synthesis; A/V modulation; connectivity ?
<wolfspraul>
I think in the room/environment that m1 runs in, there is always music
<wolfspraul>
or maybe someone wants to setup a silent installation with it? visuals only?
<wolfspraul>
well let's see. we agree on the features, need to see how we can bring it out on the box well.
<wpwrak>
i think it would be good to emphasize that it can generate significant effects on its own. so it's not just a video distorter from the 1980es.
<wolfspraul>
I think in order to win a customer over, you need a simple starting point to explain what this is. that would be music for me right now, but I can think about the camera more.
<wpwrak>
ah, another feature is that it can be extended/programmed. maybe merge effects and modulation into one item then :)
<wolfspraul>
there are probably more people dealing with music than dealing with video or lights
<wpwrak>
if you sell it mainly as audio-modulated image generation, that may affect how you have to position it in relation to the competition
<wpwrak>
also, people who don't use video now may be attracted by the possibility, even if they eventually decide it's too cumbersome for them ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I'm very clear about the 'value proposition' (ahem) of the video input and DMX features
<wolfspraul>
we just need to see how we can bring this out on the box
<wolfspraul>
we can only talk about 3 things on the box
<wolfspraul>
it's not about perfection there, it's about getting people interested
<wpwrak>
i would show video and audio more than talk about them :)
<wpwrak>
i'm not sure i explained the image i have in mind well. the one with the data flow. lemme try to sketch it ...
<lekernel>
actually this guy's coming to Europe in July... I should email him again
<wpwrak>
he should love your little box :)
<CIA-51>
flickernoise: Xiangfu Liu master * r169dd6e / (7 files): change root folder name from /flash to /ssd - http://bit.ly/llyhEI
<azonenberg>
lekernel: you around?
<lekernel>
yes
<azonenberg>
Did you have a chance to look at the test patterns i posted? Any suggestions?
<azonenberg>
The goal is to characterize KOH etch rates and determine the minimum feature size i can reliably fabricate
<azonenberg>
I don't know where in the process the limiting factor will be, so far I know that in tests I've hit 5um per pixel in photoresist on copper
<lekernel>
well, those patterns look good for this purpose... what problems do you expect?
<azonenberg>
But I haven't done the rest of the process yet (HF wet etching through developed photoresist into tantalum pentoxide hardmask, then stripping PR and wet etching with KOH through hardmask into silicon)
<azonenberg>
Well, one thing i need test patterns for even if it works fine is characterizing etch rates
<azonenberg>
The hardmask i'm using is Ta2O5 which is marketed as an antireflection coating for solar cells and optoelectronics
<azonenberg>
It's never been used for this purpose AFAIK
<azonenberg>
But i needed something that could be deposited by spin coating, was more resistant to KOH than SiO2 (which will work as a hardmask but is eaten slowly by KOH and won't survive deep through-wafer etches), and could still be patterned with HF
<azonenberg>
That's the biggest risk AFAIK - i dont know if it'll work for this purpose
<azonenberg>
I already know i can coat and pattern the photoresist, I already know PR will survive HF (I've etched glass microscope slides with it, though adhesion was poor because i over-etched)
<azonenberg>
And KOH etching of Si is a well documented process
<azonenberg>
So the hardmask is the biggest risk as of now
<azonenberg>
Once I have patterns formed in Si, though, things get a lot less clear
<azonenberg>
Metalization etc is much less well developed on the amateur side of things
<azonenberg>
I'm in talks with a friend of mine (grad student doing her research on sputtering) and a physics professor at another university who's trying to build a homebrew sputter deposition rig
<azonenberg>
Between the three of us, and anybody else who joins my sputter research group between now and when I get Si etching working reliably (which is the last milestone before tackling metalization), I'm hoping in ~6 months of work we'll be able to get a working DC sputtering rig
<lekernel>
phew... at electrolab (hackerspace near Paris) there are two big boxes full of vacuum equipment
<lekernel>
including two primary pumps and two (old) turbomolecular pumps
<azonenberg>
o_O
<azonenberg>
Working turbopumps??
<lekernel>
they look in good condition, but we did not test them
<lekernel>
one is missing its control electronics
<azonenberg>
If you guys want to part with any, or design a sputtering rig with my help and let me mail you guys dies to process, that'd be great lol
<azonenberg>
I could just imagine this becoming an international hacker fab with the lithography here, metalization in Paris, and wafers being mailed back and forth for processing
<lekernel>
hmm ... #1 problem here is time
<lekernel>
and then money
<azonenberg>
Same here lol
<azonenberg>
I'm a PhD student, on a grad student's budget
<azonenberg>
Which is why this project is moving as slowly as it is on my end lol
<azonenberg>
I finally have a few extra $$ so i'll be placing some orders shortly
<lekernel>
if we do the metalization in Paris, it's going to be super slow for multilayer anyway
<lekernel>
speaking of turbopumps, do you know of any device to protect them in case the vacuum chamber breaks or otherwise leaks?
<azonenberg>
lekernel: Yes, i know it'll be slow - but better than nothing
<azonenberg>
And hmm...
<lekernel>
we have been quite reluctant to try them, because they can break so easily
<azonenberg>
I know what you mean, i've seen shredded pumps
<azonenberg>
Are you concerned about a mechanical failure or user error (flipping on the vent valve while it's still spinning)?
<azonenberg>
The second could be partially addressed by using electronic valves and building a control system that warns the user, or outright says "no", if you try venting before the pump spins down
<lekernel>
since we are total newbies with building vacuum stuff, I'd guess our plumbing may leak, break, etc.
<azonenberg>
But mechanical failure that brings you from high vacuum to near atmosphere instantly?
<azonenberg>
That's gonna be catastrophic no matter what IMO
<azonenberg>
However, on the plus side
<azonenberg>
That's very rare
<azonenberg>
Much more likely is a slow leak
<azonenberg>
Which will be something you can detect and plug in advance
<azonenberg>
And which, if it starts while the chamber is pumped down, is unlikely to hit a dangerously high pressure before you can shut down the turbo
<azonenberg>
Also, consider there are other options besides turbopumps
<azonenberg>
Diffusion pumps are almost indestructible for example
<lekernel>
we also have a mercury (!) diffusion pump
<azonenberg>
o_O
<lekernel>
but not in very good condition and missing its heater
<azonenberg>
I'm told oil diffusion isn't that hard to build
<lekernel>
the mercury doesn't seem to be there either, we'd need to find some
<lekernel>
the complete thing is very rusty too
<azonenberg>
Good luck in today's world lol
<lekernel>
and rust outgases, no?
<azonenberg>
I know a guy in california with a vial containing a few CCs but thats it
<azonenberg>
Outgasses? I don't think so
<azonenberg>
The bigger risk IMO would be the surface trapping water
<azonenberg>
Which would outgas
<azonenberg>
But the vapor pressure of FeO2 is high
<azonenberg>
*low
<lekernel>
yeah but it's hydrated afaik
<azonenberg>
Oh, good point
<azonenberg>
its not just iron oxide, its the hydrate
<azonenberg>
So yeah that would be problematic
<lekernel>
on the other hand - yeah, it's a very simple device
<lekernel>
probably DIY-able
<azonenberg>
My advice would be to build an oil diffusion pump from scratch and not touch the turbo until and unless you get a chamber you're confident with (having gotten down to high vac with the diffusion pump and left it in operation for several hours at a stretch)
<lekernel>
ah, we have a bottle of silicon oil for diffusion pumps too
<azonenberg>
Excellent
<azonenberg>
I'm told diffusion pumps have been DIYed in the past
<azonenberg>
If you get it working i'd love to see docs
<azonenberg>
In other news - stuff on deck for ordering within the next week: bottle of 50nm colloidal silica slurry for CMP, diamond scribe for wafer cleavage, more rubber gloves (it's not a cleanroom but i don't want TOO many fingerprints), empty 4-inch cassettes, a 4-inch single side polished N doped <100> wafer, ten <110> 1cm square single side polished undoped substrates, some die trays
<azonenberg>
two pounds of technical grade KOH
<azonenberg>
4 ounce bottle each of Ta2O5 and SiO2 spin-on coating solutions
<lekernel>
btw - I can order mercury chloride (and electrolyze that)
<azonenberg>
UV safety glasses
<kristianpaul>
there is a something else besides verilog to "run" a test bench and generated output compatible with gtkwave?
<lekernel>
it's 31E for 100 grams though
<azonenberg>
And a 1-watt 385nm UV LED flashlight
<azonenberg>
I'd go for oil, it's safer
<lekernel>
so I'd get chlorine gas as well as mercury :-)
<azonenberg>
I know a guy who messed with Cl2 at home
<lekernel>
did it too, but in very small quantities
<azonenberg>
After a lab accident (ground glass joint popped from overpressure) he had a cough and wheeze for six months
<azonenberg>
Why he's still alive is beyond me but past experience has shown that the guy is pretty hard to kill
<azonenberg>
being around 20kV laser capacitors doesn't seem to bother him much either lol
<lekernel>
funny, I'd swear that one year ago there was pure mercury in the index too.
<azonenberg>
Suffice it to say, oil diffusion is probably a much better bet lol
<lekernel>
(in France you can order all sorts of chemicals on http://www.la-mep.com)
<azonenberg>
France isn't as paranoid about that stuff as the rest of the EU is with RoHS etc?
<lekernel>
oh, it is
<azonenberg>
Not to say you can't buy all kinds of nasties in the USA too
<azonenberg>
But considering stories i hear about people unable to buy isopropanol above 50% in australia etc
<lekernel>
actually this website is supposed to be for schools and labs only, but they do little checking ;-)
<azonenberg>
For the record i have a 16oz bottle of 99% IPA / 1% DI water around that i clean stuff with lol
<azonenberg>
And lol, i see
<lekernel>
same here, from la-mep :-)
<azonenberg>
I own a now-defunct LLC that i route orders through if they are suspicious
<lekernel>
I used it for titrating free fatty acids in waste vegetable oil when I was making DIY biodiesel
<azonenberg>
My apartment is in a commercial district, the sign on the front of the building says "TROY NEON SIGN COMPANY"
<azonenberg>
So no problems here lol
<azonenberg>
And i see
<azonenberg>
I actually get a lot of good stuff from a biodiesel supplier - DudaDiesel.com
<azonenberg>
That's where i'm ordering my KOH from
<azonenberg>
It's all pretty pure but still technical grade, if you need trace-metal go elsewhere lol
<azonenberg>
Btw, what do you think of getting something published in a journal of electronics education or something like that after this is done?
<azonenberg>
The focus not being on hobbyists but on schools, getting kids a taste of microfab without super-expensive equipment or access to a cleanroom
<azonenberg>
Demonstrating that your average high school lab is able to do 5um fab with little additional material
<lekernel>
azonenberg: do you think the mercury diffusion pump could work with oil instead?
<azonenberg>
lekernel: You'd need to clean it out well, the mixture of the two would definitely be problematic
<lekernel>
yeah, sure, and remove rust as well
<lekernel>
but beyond that?
<azonenberg>
And the heater would need to be updated for a different set temperature
<lekernel>
we have no heater ...
<azonenberg>
So not a problem, you need one anyway
<lekernel>
the pump misses it
<azonenberg>
Maybe some different sized apertures for the nozzle
<lekernel>
we only scavenged the body
<azonenberg>
But that's about it, i suspect it will work fine
<lekernel>
that would be cool
<lekernel>
actually this pump is a surprisingly simple design
<azonenberg>
And it would be significantly more robust than a turbopump
<lekernel>
probably more DIY-friendly too
<azonenberg>
Yep
<lekernel>
I'd guess anyone with an average/good metal workshop could build one
<azonenberg>
Probably
<lekernel>
we also have three ion pumps
<lekernel>
one is badly damaged, the others are worn but probably still ok
<lekernel>
we do not have the magnets though
<lekernel>
they also seem _very_ simple to build. amazing they're so expensive.
<azonenberg>
Ion pumps? Not familiar with the design
<azonenberg>
cryo, diffusion, and turbo are the only three high-vac i know
<lekernel>
usually you don't need those, except for ultra high vacuum
<lekernel>
it's a tertiary pump
<azonenberg>
Oh, lol
<azonenberg>
Something you use on top of a turbo etc?
<lekernel>
yes
<azonenberg>
That would explain it lol
<azonenberg>
I dont expect we'd need one any time soon