<rjo>
lekernel: thx for committing. i forgot to also add ngdbuild_opt to the non-edif case in _run_ise. its a one-worder. do you want a patch?
<ysionneau>
wpwrak: dunno :( 3 persons in CC were interested in the first place
<ysionneau>
if nobody is interested, let's say it's more free time for me
<ysionneau>
after all I have my M1, I don't care that much
<ysionneau>
now I'm interested if someone finds who the hell is desactivating DTLB (bit 0x40 in PSW) in my last email :D
<ysionneau>
I don't even write to PSW in the dtlb miss handler ...
<ysionneau>
all the other handlers are looping to themselves... and should freeze the M1
<ysionneau>
maybe a strange interaction between IE and PSW (because they are somehow related because of PSW[2:0])
<ysionneau>
I don't get it
<lekernel>
rjo, yw. yes, please
<lekernel>
the mixxeo boards just arrived here btw
<ysionneau>
\o/
<larsc>
so they'll hopefully make it right on time for christmas
<lekernel>
should be fine, Germany domestic parcels aren't that slow
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<wpwrak>
rjo: those kids grow up so fast ;-)
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<lekernel>
ysionneau, "interest" dies quickly when you start asking for things like money :)
<ysionneau>
yes I think the price is not very attractive :(
<lekernel>
the hacker/maker market is full of low ballers who think hacking cheap Chinese gadgets is the best thing in the world
<lekernel>
I'm out of it now
<ysionneau>
I'm a little bit depressed about the fact that as soon as you want to make a real PCB with a few layers, a few connectors a some interesting components: then the price skyrockets
<ysionneau>
like if you don't want to spend 700 EUR, you're stuck with arduino like projects
<ysionneau>
it sucks
<ysionneau>
with 150 EUR you can buy nowadays pretty crazy electronic devices, or consumer stuff
<ysionneau>
but when you want to make something ...
<ysionneau>
you get nothing for 150 eur :(
<lekernel>
on the other hand, if you can deal with such PCBs, you can probably get a job that makes 700E very affordable
<ysionneau>
yes indeed
<ysionneau>
but it seems to exceed the price that even people who can afford it tend to spend for "toys"
<ysionneau>
I mean, for gadgets or hacking projets etc
<ysionneau>
I hope we'll find some manufacturing techniques which enable the price to go down sometime
<lekernel>
do those people do anything really interesting with those "toys"?
<lekernel>
have you seen an impressive raspberry pi project lately?
<ysionneau>
I've never searched fo raspberry stuff but I bet that I can find a few interesting projects if I browse a little bit
<wpwrak>
(2048 cycles stall) ouch ! :)
<ysionneau>
well, for instance the robotic club at my school used one to control their robot
<ysionneau>
wpwrak: yeah read-compare-write, for 1024 entries
<ysionneau>
they used arduinos to count ticks of "coding wheels"
<ysionneau>
before raspberry existed they used an eeepc stuck to the robot to control it
<ysionneau>
now they use a raspberry
<lekernel>
well, the rpi/arduino is hardly an essential component of that robot, right? you could replace it with a pc
<lekernel>
yes :)
<ysionneau>
the rpi is just the control stuf and contains the algorithm (path finding, avoiding collisions etc)
<ysionneau>
arduino counts ticks , report to rpi, and forward the rpi orders like "make the wheel go faster"
<wpwrak>
(700 EUR) well, milkymist is a complex device. you can make simple things cheaply, e.g., atben/atusb weren't all that expensive to make. to avoid the smell of arduino, atusb could nowadays also use some little ARM instead of an AVR. it would actually get cheaper :)
<ysionneau>
look at the neo900, same issue
<ysionneau>
it's very expensive
<ysionneau>
but indeed it's complex, and lot of components
<wpwrak>
yes. smartphones are about the worst you can have
<wpwrak>
plus, people have very strongly biased price expectations
<ysionneau>
hum looking at the M1 RC3 Bom it's $170 with PCB and smt
<ysionneau>
so what makes it so expensive?
<wpwrak>
at least for milkymist, there's nothing you could compare it with directly
<wpwrak>
PCBA price is USD 170 ? then you should be able to see it for ... about USD 500. the usual formula to apply is x 3. to cover yield, any taxes on your side, logistics, returns/conflict handling, and all that
<wpwrak>
you could go a little lower if you do everything direct and avoid expensive things like certifications
<ysionneau>
well I mean, not the price you would sell it if you have a company to run
<ysionneau>
lawyers, secretary, ingineers etc
<ysionneau>
engineers*
<wpwrak>
but then, you'd also want to make some money on it. have a basis for future projects and also have a reserve for when you hit an unexpected issue. e.g., some patent troll attack
<ysionneau>
I mean the price I would need to pay if I call a chinese factory and ask for 1 unit
<ysionneau>
if I want to make one for myself for instance
<wpwrak>
are you sure it's so low ? production run 1 -> USD 170 ?
<wpwrak>
already setting up the PCB-making process should be > USD 500
<ysionneau>
it says $170 at the bottom of the page
<wpwrak>
that's ~USD 2000 for 95 PCBs
<wpwrak>
and does not include the cost of SMT
<wpwrak>
that's basically 100 bags of components
<wpwrak>
also the component number should be ~100. so that's considerably cheaper than buying in single-unit quantities.
<ysionneau>
ah I did not see the cell if empty for the "SMT" line
<ysionneau>
so to avoid all this expense
<wpwrak>
e.g., the MIC2550AYTS, to pick a random example, costs at digi-key only 70% per unit at 100 pieces than at 1
<ysionneau>
I would need to do the PCB myself, so forget about the 1337 layers
<ysionneau>
and do something like top-bottom
<ysionneau>
forget about BGA
<ysionneau>
and only use QFP chips
<ysionneau>
which usually are the smaller ones :(
<wpwrak>
so for a single unit you get ... about USD 150/0.7 = USD 215, plus USD 500 PCB making setup, plus USD 15 for the one PCB
<wpwrak>
so, about USD 730. add shipping and you're around USD 810-850
<ysionneau>
:/
<ysionneau>
how realistic would it be to make a clone of the M1 with just top-bottom pcb?
<wpwrak>
and that's still just the bag of components. SMT will have to be done manually.
<ysionneau>
and then manufacture it yourself
<wpwrak>
dunno if you can handle the FPGA with two-layer
<wpwrak>
but if you pick a QFP, then yes, it may be feasible
<ysionneau>
ah yes, QFP
<ysionneau>
but then no LX45
<ysionneau>
oly LX4 LX9
<ysionneau>
only*
<wpwrak>
quite a piece of work, though. since there still are LOTS of things on the board
<wpwrak>
yup. and you have parallel NOR (get rid of it, use SPI), SDRAM, video in/out, etc.
<wpwrak>
for my projects, i usually get at least 10 components. if the component is cheap and reasonably generic, a lot more.
<ysionneau>
ok
<wpwrak>
that way, i can make several boards, can also make partial boards for testing some subsystem (e.g., the board i made for anelok that has wheel and OLED but no MCU)
<wpwrak>
and i may also have parts for later derivative projects. you never want to run out of components :)
<ysionneau>
yes sourcing can become difficult for instance
<wpwrak>
and you never want to be soldering some nasty chip, knowing that it's the last one you have :)
<ysionneau>
ahah
<ysionneau>
it's even more true when you are a soldering beginner
<ysionneau>
I mean, a 150 EUR M1 would be very sexy
<ysionneau>
even without say dmx/midi video in
<ysionneau>
M1 or Mixxeo, whatever
<ysionneau>
a lot more people would be willing to spend 150 EUR
<ysionneau>
it's even more true when they don't have yet a very precise idea about what they will do with it
<ysionneau>
if it's very expensive and you don't know yet what you will do with it: you don't buy
<ysionneau>
if it's not so much expensive: you buy, and you think you will figure out later
<ysionneau>
but I think I'm dreaming, such kind of pcb/components for 150 EUR will never happen I guess
<lekernel>
since there are apparently no process-dependent hardware bug, I'm probably not going to need all 6 Mixxeo boards I took for me
<lekernel>
I can ship a couple immediately...
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<wpwrak>
ysionneau: there's your opportunity ;-)
<ysionneau>
wpwrak: what do you mean?
<wpwrak>
ysionneau: what lekernel just wrote :)
<wpwrak>
ysionneau: your path to an "inexpensive" mixxeo. well, you may have ordered one already.
<ysionneau>
I didn't order one
<ysionneau>
because honestly I don't think I have any use for it
<wpwrak>
ysionneau: (cheap process) you need to go over BOM and process with a fine comb and throw out everything that gives you trouble. e.g., M1 would be easier without the fancy connectors.
<ysionneau>
I already have a very shiny M1 board which can do so much things
<ysionneau>
if it was cheaper I would have order one, just to support the initiative
<ysionneau>
but it's really not cheap
<wpwrak>
then you have the wide busses for analog video, especially video out
<wpwrak>
also ethernet isn't exactly a small bus
<wpwrak>
granted, a bus is most of the time just wide. but still.
<wpwrak>
(not cheap) ah, how much is it ?
<ysionneau>
well it's something like 700 EUR, isn't it?
<wpwrak>
doesn't sound too bad to me for such a small run
<ysionneau>
well not too bad I guess
<ysionneau>
but for a specialized device I won't know what to do with, it's expensive :p
<ysionneau>
I mean I already have the M1 for doing FPGA/embedded-soft-dev playing
<ysionneau>
I'm not so much into VJing and mixing
<ysionneau>
my main interest is learning embedded stuff
<ysionneau>
at pcb-pool I can make a 100x100 pcb , 6 layers, for 134 EUR, at 1 unit
<ysionneau>
altera Cyclone 3 EP3C40 comes with PQFP package
<ysionneau>
aouch it's more expensive than spartan 6 LX45
<ysionneau>
USD 80 for the EP3C40
<ysionneau>
anyway, seems too hard a goal to make a cheaper M1
<ysionneau>
and I don't have the time for it
<lekernel>
shipped! :)
<larsc>
thanks
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