<Oksana>
Timezap?.. I am actually thinking that if a filesystem stored a file as set of time-marked ++--edits (like: created at X/Y/Z, added line ABC at X/Y/Z, edited line ABC to CBA at Χ/Υ/Ζ, and so on), then it would become possible to have time-turner low-level "feature" when you edit files and leave _false timestep_ of edit. Of course, it only works as long as there is no paradox...
<Oksana>
For example: if there were 11 lines in the file, then some program read the file and put "11" into a different file, then you go time-turn to "the past", add new line to the file, but anybody who knows where to find number of lines (11) will know that time-travelling happened, and increased number of lines by one.
* Oksana
is reading about TZ...
<Pali>
this is perfect bug :D if sudoers is configued to allow run as root at least one program, then bugs in TZ parser can be used to obtain root shell
<Pali>
another reason to uninstall sudo
<dos1>
no root shell so far for this one, just a crash that might be (or not) exploitable
<Pali>
until somebody find bug in tz parser
<Pali>
basically *any* bug which can be triggered by ENV is problematic for sudo
<kerio>
yeah and if you find a kernel bug in the linux ip stack you can run code with kernel privs
<dos1>
reminds me of ubuntu bug affecting sudo and their pam plugin I've found together with my colleague
<dos1>
we found it after our sysadmin removed our root accesses we gained earlier. colleague gained it earlier when admin logged in as root on his pc and forgot to logout ;)
<Oksana>
Funny...
<Pali>
:D
<Pali>
I remember days when I copied from network windows NT hashes of login passwords
<dos1>
he just added himself to sudoers, while I've added suid-surprises in different places, so I still had my root :D
<kerio>
LOL
<Pali>
and then with rainbow tables I broke them...
<Pali>
looks like cracking real SSL PEM certificate is not problem :D
<kerio>
not when the password is a 7 letters dictionary word
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<DocScrutinizer05>
IT is mere fun
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway sorry Oksana I'm too tired for interview now. dos1 please use a nonce word for update of webpage, we will provide quite some news later on this very week. Teaser: http://neo900.org/hidden/werner/tmp/hb-20150222.pdf
<wpwrak>
well, but he cheated. he used arcane knowledge. that obscure program called "strings". that sort of stuff should be prohibited.
<DocScrutinizer05>
strings? LOL, we had a CVE with that a year ago already, no?
<wpwrak>
yeha, that too :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
dos1: <highlight> 2 lines up
<wpwrak>
now i just wish freescale would respond to my question about SPI inter-byte delay ... they have a jolly mess of different SPI implementations, possibly even confusing themselves
<DocScrutinizer05>
*sigh*
<DocScrutinizer05>
industry
<DocScrutinizer05>
even freescale still is evil indistry
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/u/a
<DocScrutinizer05>
meh
<DocScrutinizer05>
n8
<wpwrak>
one of the highlights is that the KL25 has a "simple" SPI (no FIFO, only 8 bits) while the KL26 has a more advanced one. now, the registers are clearly designed to be compatible. same structure, same names, and so on. problem: my code didn't work.
<DocScrutinizer05>
got an appointment with train in ~4h
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<DocScrutinizer05>
surprise that code designed for raw direct register access didn't work on a fifo
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<wpwrak>
naw, the FIFO is a) kinda transparent, and b) you can disable it and i didn't even turn it on
<DocScrutinizer05>
seems there still are tiny nasty semantic differences
<wpwrak>
well, i eventually discovered that they had shuffled the register addresses between KL25 and KL26.
<DocScrutinizer05>
or the TRM is fubar at large
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, so the latter
<wpwrak>
once i fixed that, the code ran beautifully, as it should
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway seeya folks, I'm wasted from doing nothing, maybe tomorrow I'm more productive
<DocScrutinizer05>
n8
<wpwrak>
sweet dreams ! :)
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<dal2>
Hi, is it still possible to donate to reserve future phones, and if so, whom can I pm? :)
<Oksana>
To donors of 100 EUR or more special conditions are offered. [Aka: donation of 100 EUR or more can be counted as 1 pre-order; donation of 200 EUR or more can be counted as 2 pre-orders, if you specify it; and so on]
<Oksana>
I donated through SEPA/IBAN bank transfer and included amount into pre-orders into the email I sent afterwards. If you choose Paypal, you are probably going to put amount of pre-orders into payment notes, along with your country...
<Oksana>
amount of* pre-orders
<dal2>
Oksana: Thanks.
<Oksana>
No problem
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<joecool>
you guys still alive?
<joecool>
o i see forum thread, doc got the ebola
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<wpwrak>
what, all those years of top-notch research and we still don't have anything worse than ebola ? still no disease that spreads by explosion of the very-soon-to-be cadaver ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>use more power to reach a given cell tower the farther it travels from that tower, or when obstacles like buildings or mountains block its signal<< or... your hand ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
"sorry we cannot locate. User is holding it incorrectly" LOL
<wpwrak>
seems that they can filter all that out
<DocScrutinizer05>
meh, only in lab testbed conditions. The whole research is basically a hoax
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>That correlation [...] is strong enough that momentary power drains like a phone conversation [...] can be filtered out" - that's bullshit since only a "phone conversation" (or data traffic) would actually create a power demand that's related in any way to the TX power the phone uses
<DocScrutinizer05>
so they cannot filter out phone calls, they need them as they are the only more or less (less since there's still silence-detection and no TX during such periods) constant power usage related to that "distance from BTS" they want to calculate
<DocScrutinizer05>
for data which also causes TX, it's highly depending on the amount of data and frequency of bursts the usage pattern creates, so no way to use that for detecting "distance to BTS" from battery discharge rate
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's a silly hoax, no value for RL
<DocScrutinizer05>
"We show that measuring the phone's aggregate power consumption over time completely reveals the phone's location and movement." BZZZZ wrong! power usage is *way more* related to e.g. general IRC activity (when running an IRC client) than to distance from tower
<DocScrutinizer05>
they did a research under clean testbed conditions
<DocScrutinizer05>
they as well could try to detect the "fingerprint" of a location by measuring the accelerometer and detecting pace and jitter of user's steps while walking
<DocScrutinizer05>
since "user will walk slower when walking uphil than when walking downhill. And in a crown jitter increases, also when user passing by points of interest which attract attention"
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/crown/crowd/
<DocScrutinizer05>
traffic signs would create very unique signature too
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<ShadowJK>
I find that the power use correlates morr strongly with how many cell towers my operator has fucked up today
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<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe
<bencoh>
:]
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<DocScrutinizer05>
it's kinda worrying that Schneier considers it "interesting" and didn't instantly spot the flawed foundation assumptions all this is based on
<wpwrak>
naw, i think he's quite right. this is a common pattern: 1) someone discovers a new leak, makes a lab proof of concept, without much real-world relevance. 2) others pick up the idea and refine it. 3) some years later the world finds out about yet another massive espionage operation
<DocScrutinizer05>
the concept of this will not fly
<dal2>
Hi. I'd like to donate to reserve some phones, a little more than 100 Euro per, too, so that I can help you all out more
<DocScrutinizer05>
it cannot get "refined"
<DocScrutinizer05>
dal2: that's great and highly appreciated :-) Thanks a lot
<dal2>
I have a quick question - I had to take the battery out of my Samsung galaxy once to stop a gsm attack
<dal2>
With the hot swap on this one...how long would it take for the power to die out completely? i.e. approx how long will the hot swap capability stay hot?
<dal2>
or is there some way to disable the hot swap
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually we're about to increase the funds we need to raise (aka "down payments") since we want to source risk parts like the 1GB RAM PoP chip, LEDs which are rare and hard to find, etc
<DocScrutinizer05>
dal2: you won't need to remove battery to stop any attack via GSM, the Neo900 can power down the modem reliably without removing battery
<DocScrutinizer05>
dal2: anyway hotswap is very very short, only will work when using "magic speed battery swapping" which takes less than 1 second to remove old battery and insret new one
<dal2>
Okay, thanks. So basically, taking the battery out kills the power entirely after like 5 seconds or even less?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
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<dal2>
okay cool, that solves my problem :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway Neo900 can "kill power entirely" in 0 seconds, for modem
<dal2>
cool :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
this feature is meant particularly for situations where commonly a "take out battery from any phones you carry" is advised
<DocScrutinizer05>
we not only cut the power to modem, we even monitor that it is actually cut and modem is inactive. We do in several independent ways
<dal2>
Ah okay.
<x29a>
dal2: howd u know you were beeing gsm attacked?
<dal2>
x29a: I was at HOPE X. Presented on the Project PM panel--Barrett Brown's research group, if you're familiar
<x29a>
ah
<dal2>
x29a: After the phone was hacked, took an image of the phone, got it to a forensics guy
<dal2>
x29a: The forensics guy isn't finished yet :( working in his spare time and such, but said it was gsm
<dal2>
x29a: he ruled out anything like old malware suddenly turning on, etc.
<dal2>
x29a: the phone was taking screenshots and such while being hacked. I was hanging out at the FSF booth too!
<dal2>
x29a: I showed it to the sysadmin behind the booth, who said Yep your phone is getting hacked
<dal2>
x29a: so then I ripped the battery out
<x29a>
i c
<dal2>
x29a: I don't know if it was just some hacker screwing around, or the spy contractors who showed up to watch our panel
<dal2>
x29a: the contractors recognized some of my work (they snickered at certain parts), so :)
<dal2>
*some of my journalism work
<dal2>
DocScrutinizer05: sent you a pm
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<dal2>
Do LTE modems fall back on GSM if LTE is not available?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually they first try UMTS fallback
<DocScrutinizer05>
in default config (user can configure this very precisely)
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<joecool>
dal2: t-mobile US is actually good example of this in action.... only their branded devices appear to be allowed on the voLTE network... any other phones have to fallback to UMTS or GSM
<joecool>
and there are many rural areas that were converted from GSM/EDGE-only to 5mhz width LTE so they could re-use the antennas
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<joecool>
in these areas phone needs to send sms and calls over the gsm network
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<dal2>
I'm gonna get the Neo900 regardless but another thing I was wondering -
<dal2>
on Android, there is an app to auto-record incoming/outgoing calls, something I need as a journalist
<kerio>
recaller
<dal2>
wonder if something like this exists for Replicant or some other compatible OS
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<dal2>
ah cool, recaller, yes thanks
<DocScrutinizer05>
another happy cistomer. \o/
<DocScrutinizer05>
customer*
<DocScrutinizer05>
PP arrived
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<dal2>
yay! :)
<dal2>
Incidentally if anyone's curious, I heard about the Neo900 from that FSF booth at HOPE X
<DocScrutinizer05>
FSF? oh wow!
<DocScrutinizer05>
didn't think they really noticed us
<dal2>
It was a sysadmin named Lisa I think. Not sure if she's still there
<dal2>
wasn't a FSF recommendation per se, just hers
<kerio>
FSF-senpai noticed us ^_^
<dal2>
she was the one working the booth
<DocScrutinizer05>
apropos FSF and the much wanted "FOSS radio telephony stack": There's a guy calling himself spacefalcon who is working on Calypso modem chipset and already provides a somewhat working FOSS firmware for it (though of arguable origin). The calypso is a GSM-only chipset the Openmoko Neo Freerunner used. Spacefalcon aiui plans to build his own modem module and it seems plausible he'd use a footprint for such module that would be compatible
<DocScrutinizer05>
with the P*S8 modem series we use in Neo900
<kerio>
GSM-only, tho
<DocScrutinizer05>
so if somebody was really interested in a phone that can do GSM voice, text, data only (not even EDGE), but has a FOSS firmware, they might want to order a Neo900 sans modem and fit a Spacefalcon's FreeCalypso modem in
<DocScrutinizer05>
nota bene: Spacefalcon's project is quite a few months behind of Neo900, I don't expect those calypso modems to get available this year
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually I dunno at all if this is a serious project
<DocScrutinizer05>
Openmoko and Neo900 UG received several mails from spacefalcon where he explained his plans, but don't call _me_ out on it
<bencoh>
DocScrutinizer05: hmm ... osmocom ?
<bencoh>
(is he or his project related in some way ?)
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway the Calypso is a nice example to explain the firmware update issue (FSF so far forbid firmware updates when the firmware shipped within the chip was non-FOSS). In Neo Freerunner (GTA02) the Calypso originally been considered non-update-able. FSF was happy. Then I published updater tool and MOKO11 firmware to fix some bugs. I guess FSF must have missed that or openmoko would have received some complaint from them. BUT... then the
<DocScrutinizer05>
OSMOCOM et al firmwares came up and they are "FOSS" of sorts, and suddenly calypso is a good chip and Freerunner a good phone again
<DocScrutinizer05>
bencoh: only faintly if at all
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<DocScrutinizer05>
with FSF strict RYF rules, the calypso in Freerunner wouldn't have been updateable based on some hw that forbid any such update, and neither the update to fix nasty bugs nor any FOSS firmware ever would've happened
<dos1>
spacefalcon's firmware is not FOSS though; it's based on leaked sources
<dos1>
it's FOSS in his point of view that disregards any laws at all :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<dos1>
of course osmocombb is "truly" FOSS
<DocScrutinizer05>
I named it "though of arguable origin"
<DocScrutinizer05>
osmocom is absolutely clean afaik
<DocScrutinizer05>
and from highly qualified folks who know their stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
but not intended dor daily phone use anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
for*
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<Oksana>
Moin! ~~batswap quick procedure looks like the ways I change battery in my N900... Kukuku~~
<Oksana>
FreeCalypso sounds cool. Would it be possible to detach Calypso modem (ball-mounted, right?) with hot air or something, later, and put FreeCalypso onto Neo900? I understand that Calypso-open-source-firmware is of arguable origin, but would it be possible for FreeCalypso to have FOSS firmware (of non-arguable origin?). GSM voice, SMS, speaking-with-tower would be quite enough - it's not like...
<Oksana>
...I use cellular Internet - though cellular fax would be nice to have...
<Oksana>
osmocombb - not intended dor daily phone use anyway - why?
<dos1>
Oksana: yup, FreeCalypso can have OsmocomBB, however, it's not designed as a daily phone; it's more done as a research and diagnostic tool
<dos1>
why? it's simple: you can't use it legally without proper permissions
<dos1>
so osmocombb project doesn't really care about "normal user everyday usage" (but of course if you insist you could do that)
<dos1>
one of the examples of such behaviour is that osmocombb doesn't really run its code in best possible places, implementing a lot of stuff in general cpu while original firmware uses dsps and coprocessors heavily
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't know if OsmocomBB has a codec at al
<DocScrutinizer05>
all*
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oksana: Neo900 has no calypso modem, we use Gemalto/Cinterion P*S8
<dos1>
yeah, it might be even incomplete for such "normal usage"
<DocScrutinizer05>
just in case
<dos1>
oh, yeah, detaching Calypso to replace it with FreeCalypso doesn't make much sense :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
... re >>Would it be possible to detach Calypso modem<<
<dos1>
FreeCalypso is a spacefalcon's project which uses Calypso
<DocScrutinizer05>
Calypso is an ancient TI phone chipset
<DocScrutinizer05>
really ancient like stone
<dos1>
it was used in Openmoko Neo Freerunner
<DocScrutinizer05>
prlly older than 15 years
<dos1>
and earlier Neo1973
<dos1>
and some old line of Motorola dumbphones AFAIR
<dos1>
feature wise it was already pretty obsolete during Openmoko times
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, Moto C112 or somesuch
<Oksana>
Ah, confused with the names. Since Neo900 uses Gemalto, would its footprint be suitable for FreeCalypso to be attached in its place?
<DocScrutinizer05>
and yeah, EDGE was a breeze after using Freerunner for some time, on plain GPRS datarate
<Oksana>
So, FreeCalypso isn't a new modem-hardware - it's new firmware for existing modem?
<DocScrutinizer05>
iirc
<DocScrutinizer05>
FreeCalypso might be what Spacefalcon calls his project consisting of building some pirated software/firmware and building a modem based on Calypso chipset
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I already elaborated that he received suggestion from my side to plan for a compatible footprint and we will plan for electrical compatibility
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, you could unsolder the P*S8 though it would be wiser to order a phone without modem
<DocScrutinizer05>
since the modem definitely is junk after desoldering it
<Oksana>
So FreeCalypso modem would be firmware compatible with Calypso and footprint compatible with Gemalto?
<DocScrutinizer05>
sort of
<DocScrutinizer05>
aiui
<DocScrutinizer05>
this spacefalkon guy is veeery talkative (mails tend to be a 1000 lines or more) and sometimes hard to follow his thoughts
* Oksana
will consider having one or two phones without modem, depending on progress of FreeCalypso by the time Neo900 is going to be manufactured
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway he recently asked for PCB layout files of OM Freerunner, to copy the modem layout
<DocScrutinizer05>
Sean promised to share
<DocScrutinizer05>
(progress of FreeCalypso) don't hold your breath
<Oksana>
:-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oksana: would you feel like (co-)authoring a new newsletter?
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oksana: we (werner, me) are busy right in this very moment to prepare a HackerBus whitepaper to publish this week
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oksana: I also made some progress to source N900 for those customers who want a complete device
<Oksana>
:-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
we will also officially publish the new down payment amounts we need to proceed with sourcing all that stuff. Total for NeoN board (incl initial "donation") will be around 200EUR or 250. For N900 we need an additional 150 (though we hope to get the stuff cheaper than that. It's just the maximum and there won't be any "wasted money" since it all counts for the final invoice anyway)
<DocScrutinizer05>
so the regular customer who's interested in a complete device will get asked to upgrade his down payment to a total of ~400EUR, which should be ~50% +/- a few, of the final sales price
<Oksana>
Ok, what should be in newsletter? Received camera switches; tested 1GB-RAM, and had to change xloader-uBoot to work with it - does it work now? Something up with IR-photodiode? HackerBus whitepaper going to be published soon? Approximate down-payments for pre-order (250EUR for NeoN board, 400 EUR for complete Neo900 device)?
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, and some time after that campaign finished, the preorder window will close quite naturally, since we start sourcing parts in needed quantities then
<Oksana>
How many pre-orders are there already? How many more can fit in?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, that sounds all quite good. Maybe except the IR-photodiode stuff which isn't really newsworthy yet. We will publish an updated IR whitepaper quite soon though
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's a two questions, first is easy: around some 450. The second is almost impossible to answer since we don't know until it's "too late". We will try to keep preorder window open as long as possible and we also will source excess parts as seems economically reasonable
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooops, take that 450 figure with a grain of salt and please don't quote me on it, I haven't checked for so long now, I might have gotten it wrong
<dos1>
more like 400 I think
<DocScrutinizer05>
quite possible, yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
PP: 8 in Jan, 5 in Feb
<DocScrutinizer05>
1 or 2 on bank account
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oksana added a 3 with one payment though
<DocScrutinizer05>
today 2 with one payment
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* Oksana
thinks that Calypso as main processor is an odd goal - it's going to be as antique as floppy disk in 21st century...
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