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<Joerg-Neo900>
maybe going straight for STEP2 is a thing to consider
<sn0wmonster>
I would agree
<Joerg-Neo900>
if we could find the funding ;-)
<sn0wmonster>
It has been a long time (3-4 years now?) and the funding available for something newer will definitely do more
* Joerg-Neo900
has hopes
<sn0wmonster>
I can ask LTM/PIA if they're willing to help fund it, but i have no idea what they'll say. Let me try and get back to you.
<sn0wmonster>
:)
<Joerg-Neo900>
\o/
<Oksana>
Funding or not, good layouter is still required. And since Neo900 is almost done, it may as well be released. Granted, it would need some more people to actually pre-order N900. How many pre-orders do actually exist at this point? How many more are needed?
<Joerg-Neo900>
existing: ~350, needed: twice
<Joerg-Neo900>
so 600 to 800 total
<Joerg-Neo900>
we might never reach this on N900-based Neo900, so maybe STEP2 is the way to go, think big (enough)
<Joerg-Neo900>
I won't do this without some capital though
* Oksana
sighs; while Maemo Leste running on Droid is great news for the operating system, it doesn't help to increase demand for Neo900 (unless people see MyPaint and want pressure-sensitive touchscreen)
<Joerg-Neo900>
Droid is proprietary hardware, unbearable from a FOSS aspect and also pretty old
<Oksana>
Neo900 specifications also look "pretty old" by now
<Joerg-Neo900>
that's why I said let's ponder to go STEP2 right away
<Juesto>
Oksana: understand that neo900 is only on proto_v2, pretty early
<Juesto>
and the guy on protov2 is sick, correct Joerg-Neo900 ?
<Oksana>
Step2 would need a significant change of all schematics? If there is no way to move Neo900 forward right now, may as well use the time to work on Step2 (instead of pondering on Neo900), maybe Step2 publicity attracts pre-orders to Neo900 as well
<Juesto>
Oksana: you can see further stats on the neo900 website
<Joerg-Neo900>
go figure we could do STEP2 with sufficient VC to actually hire engineers and produce devices without much preorder hassle, how would that sound to you?
<Oksana>
"pretty early"... If proto_v2 was manufactured and worked, then no further prototypes would have been needed?
<Juesto>
Expensive.
<Joerg-Neo900>
Juesto: yes, making hardware,particularly phones, _is_ expensive
<Joerg-Neo900>
Oksana: the plan was to hope for proto_v3 (the next one) be our golden sample and go right to production after validation. You never know the future though
<Joerg-Neo900>
STEP2 schematics would be a new device, though much based on Neo900 schematics
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<Oksana>
How difficult would it be to make Maemo Leste run on Step2? As in, Step2 wouldn't be based on OMAP3?
<Joerg-Neo900>
not entirely clear yet since there's not even a final decision on the SoC to use or anything else
<Joerg-Neo900>
STEP2 would at very least be OMAP5
<Oksana>
Which SoC for Step2 would be Maemo Leste friendly and yet relatively modern? Do take into account that by the time proto_v2 for Step2 will be made, another few years will pass.
<Joerg-Neo900>
or any other appropriate SoC, see above. Making leste run on a platform isn't a question of the SoC primarily, but a question if that SoC is documented (and supported by linux toolchains)
<Juesto>
Oksana: if fremantle runs, leste should be easy to make it run
* Oksana
sighs
<Joerg-Neo900>
Oksana: nope, no few years. I won't do this again on subsidy for all levels. without decent VC no way to start STEP2 now
<Oksana>
Juesto : fremantle runs on Nokia N900, nowhere else. Leste runs on Nokia N900 and Motorola Droid and maybe a few other devices such as Allwinner tablet.
<Joerg-Neo900>
either VC or a kickstarter for a few millions
<Joerg-Neo900>
well, maybe just one and a bit
<Juesto>
Oksana: Maemo runs on X86 and ARM
<Juesto>
for fremantle, diablo, etc x86 = scratchbox
<Joerg-Neo900>
:nod:
<Oksana>
One million. Thousand of pre-orders. Thousand per pre-order. Sounds relatively well. Question is, how much of Neo900 work would translate into Step2 work? Wouldn't want to even think of starting Step2 from scratch (VC or no).
<Joerg-Neo900>
and when it does ARM and x86, it's prolly safe to assume it will run on other supported ISA too
<Juesto>
not out of box, Joerg-Neo900
<Joerg-Neo900>
a lot of Neo900 work was building up of knowhow
<Juesto>
so far
<Juesto>
as for proto_v1 and final proto_v2; how dated is the components?
<Oksana>
And for the record, if you skip making Neo900, I am all for converting my Neo900 pre-order into Step2 pre-order.
<Juesto>
s/is/are/
<Joerg-Neo900>
that's what been implied, Oksana
<Juesto>
Oksana: Neo900 is still this device, those are just prototype stages...
<Sveta>
whats step2 like?
<Joerg-Neo900>
convert or eventual refund, on customer's discretion
<Oksana>
Joerg-Neo900 : If Step2 is drastically different from Neo900, some people might opt for "money back"
<Juesto>
link sveta to the thread (she ignores me)
<Juesto>
s/ignores//ignore/
<Juesto>
Oksana: it will be probably better than the first, we'll see
<Joerg-Neo900>
STEP2 is same spirit, same guidelines, same goals. Just without the strict "must be compatible to N900" rule
<Joerg-Neo900>
Oksana: it won't be too different
<Juesto>
any particular reason?
<Juesto>
regarding the above rule
<Joerg-Neo900>
yes, the above rule was from a time where porting maemo been considered mission impossible
<Joerg-Neo900>
then came Neo900 and FPTF
<Juesto>
and the now leste
<Joerg-Neo900>
FPTF finally resulted in leste, yes
<Oksana>
Well, with Leste in development, Maemo Leste may as well run on different hardware. But some of points of "Nokia N900" are "good keyboard", "stylus", and so on. So, Step2 fitting into Nokia N900's case would still be an important requirement.
<Juesto>
thats just your opinion sweetie
<Joerg-Neo900>
why? we can get all of this in a better case
<Juesto>
there are better cases than n900's
<Joerg-Neo900>
N900 display diagonale always been considered on the low side
<Juesto>
remind me how large it is
<Juesto>
i can look it up but meh
<Joerg-Neo900>
3.7?
<Juesto>
inches? oh thats quite small
<Joerg-Neo900>
yep
<Juesto>
but acceptable with it's resolution
<Juesto>
16:9, correct?
<Joerg-Neo900>
yep
<Juesto>
which dpi?
<Juesto>
lastly
<Joerg-Neo900>
forgot
<Joerg-Neo900>
good
<Joerg-Neo900>
800x480
<Juesto>
thats the resolution not the density/scaling
<Oksana>
800x480 is 5:3, not 16:9. And 3.5in, while smaller than modern phablets, provides comfort of fitting into a pocket.
<Joerg-Neo900>
that's a DPI when you know the diagonale
<Juesto>
oh... thanks for the correction
<Sveta>
<Joerg-Neo900> STEP2 is same spirit, same guidelines, same goals. Just without the strict "must be compatible to N900" rule
<Sveta>
maybe that speeds things up
<Juesto>
yes sveta, freedom :)
<Oksana>
So, if you are going for different case than Nokia N900, you have got to have very sweet tongue. Because there is no single form-factor that fits all.
<Sveta>
didn't parse that
<Joerg-Neo900>
I know
<Juesto>
Oksana: i am confident there is a fit-it-all form factor
<Joerg-Neo900>
*maybe* when STEP2 flies, we can even run a "collectors vintage job" shoehorning STEP2 mobo into N900 cases
<Juesto>
how about a built in SoC emulator?
<Juesto>
so, like special offer available to stuff step2 soc onto n900? interesting
<Oksana>
>> a fit-it-all form factor << Rectangular slate is the modern fit-all form-factor. With add-ons such as keyboards (Bluetooth or wired).
<Juesto>
Oksana: you sound like you cant live without hardware keyboards
<Joerg-Neo900>
hw kbd is a key feature of Neo900
<Oksana>
Compatibility of one motherboard with different cases is not only question of motherboard size; it's also question of display size, battery size, resistive or capacitive touchscreen, and compatibility of motherboard with any combination attached to it (granted, MIPI standards help?)
<Joerg-Neo900>
yep
<Juesto>
true, hw kbds are not common on smartphones nowadays
<Oksana>
If you have to, you may also consider detachable CPU+RAM board like Pyra? And generally, having several boards connecting to each other (like, I think, Neo900 currently has Upper and Lower), may help with "different cases" and "upgradeability"
<Joerg-Neo900>
a genuine but maybe detachable hw kbd would be a great differentiation point anyway
<Juesto>
Oksana: you're suggesting a fully serviceable phone? interesting but probably troublesome for the mass-user
<Juesto>
actually, maybe not, oops
<Oksana>
As in, N900's motherboard is severely restricted by having hw keyboard domes directly on the motherboard, which means that it's impossible to fit it into a T9-case, for instance.
<Joerg-Neo900>
that type of modularity doesn't fly with maximum restrictions on available space/volume and reliability
<Juesto>
having everything detachable/serviceable is going to be excellent option except... where do you get the replacement if not from the manufacturer? suppose they closed down and/or dont produce the hardware anymore
<Joerg-Neo900>
see where BLOKS is today, silently faded away
<Juesto>
plus, take in account the modularity issues it arises
<Oksana>
Yes. But if somewhen free space does show up (say, newer chips turn up to be smaller in size, thanks to small fab (10nm instead of 28nm?) or something), modularity might be considered
<Joerg-Neo900>
aka "project Ara"?
<Joerg-Neo900>
no, chips can't get much smaller, only higher integrated, which is detrimental to modularity
<Joerg-Neo900>
we already have 0.4mm pitch on BGA
<Joerg-Neo900>
the die in such chips already is way smaller than the footprint
<Joerg-Neo900>
usually at least
<Joerg-Neo900>
maybe not for 64GB eMMC
<Joerg-Neo900>
but definitely for SoCs
<Oksana>
Hmm, so size of chips is large only because of the way they are attached to the board, not because of their internal content?
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<Oksana>
So PCB printing resolution is something to be increased if possible? Which is made difficult by higher resistance of thin-thin wires, and thus energy losses to heat?
<Joerg-Neo900>
pkircher: exactly @1
<Joerg-Neo900>
@2: it's not PCB resolution where we run into problems, it's assembly
<Juesto>
hmm wrong ping :)
<Joerg-Neo900>
PCBs can get made with 0.05mm traces
<Juesto>
Oksana: technology nowadays makes chips very powerful and small :) sure, there is the thermal issue
<Joerg-Neo900>
and yes, thermal management is a concern too
<Juesto>
they're developed with thermal throttling and power trottling and such
<Juesto>
then also are capable of high temperatures but not so high
<Joerg-Neo900>
but really it's mostly just the placing and soldering that fails to work
<Oksana>
Placing is solvable with good place-robots. Soldering is more challenging
<Joerg-Neo900>
Snapdragon is closed shit
<Oksana>
Apple is closed, too?
<Joerg-Neo900>
Apple I don't even know which SoC they use
<Oksana>
And OMAP5 is old-ish, going by modern phones
<Joerg-Neo900>
we're talking Open Hardware here#
<Joerg-Neo900>
yes
<Joerg-Neo900>
that's the never-ending dilemma
<Juesto>
which device we're specifically talking regarding apple?
<Joerg-Neo900>
i.MX8 *might* be a thing - I didn't look for new SoC for several years now
<Juesto>
iphones and ipod touches use apple An SoC
<Juesto>
where n is the generation
<Joerg-Neo900>
anyway proprietary and closed like hell
<Juesto>
Most SoCs are closed/proprietary?
<Joerg-Neo900>
yes
<Joerg-Neo900>
that's the ^^^ dilemma
<Juesto>
and there's a common issue with FOSS, there isnt much quality nor quantity
<Juesto>
sadly
<Joerg-Neo900>
hmm? how is that related to HW?
<Juesto>
well, for FOSHW i guess the same applies
<Joerg-Neo900>
except for FOSS *needing* open documets to make drivers
<Juesto>
except as for foss actually there is more quantity than quality
<Juesto>
not entirely sure
<Joerg-Neo900>
cmd: So 25. Feb 06:27:44 CET 2018
<Juesto>
lol
<Joerg-Neo900>
;-P
<Juesto>
;)
<Juesto>
that timezone confuses me a bit
<Juesto>
well nvm
* Juesto
sighs
<Joerg-Neo900>
that being said, i'm afk, need a nap. Been an INCREDIBLE AWESOME day for me, nevertheless i'm tired
<Juesto>
and night? :)
<Juesto>
Joerg-Neo900: ttyl and enjoy!
<Joerg-Neo900>
I run my own local TZ
<Joerg-Neo900>
ta and o/
<Juesto>
oh?
<Juesto>
interesting
<Joerg-Neo900>
with 39h days
<Juesto>
o_O
<Joerg-Neo900>
sn0wmonster: still around?
<Joerg-Neo900>
[notice] I started a new fulltime job at LondonMediaTrust. The agreement includes some of my paid work time dedicated to Neo900, as a sponsorship by LTM/PIA to this project
<Juesto>
Interesting
<Juesto>
congrats Joerg-Neo900
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