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<izabera> thanks xmn
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<DocScrutinizer05> hw switches still are a joke in my book
<DocScrutinizer05> if you don't trust your linux system you got full control over, then you rather should 'fix' the device with a sledge hammer than trying to fuzz around with nonsensical hw switches
* Oksana nods
<DocScrutinizer05> a rogue rootkitted linus would leak all sorts of info as soon as you enable any of those hw switches, no matter what
<Oksana> But diagnostic LEDs are still appreciated, in case hardware switch fails somehow and stays on when expected to be off.
<DocScrutinizer05> if otoh you are confident with *your* OS, there's no benefit at all from a silly hw switch, compared to a smart OS-controlled transistor switch
<DocScrutinizer05> Neo900 has diagnostic LEDs
<DocScrutinizer05> and tight monitoring
* Oksana nods
<DocScrutinizer05> and a OS-controlled solid state switch
<Oksana> Also, a funny little thing: <-- Regarding rogue wireless
<DocScrutinizer05> which kills RF in case sth rogue happens much much faster than a user could toggle a hw switch
* Oksana nods - a lot can be transmitted in such seconds
<DocScrutinizer05> hw switches are snakeoil with glass shards, Rubbing it in you feel and see cuts so it MUST be effective. Big surprise when it nevertheless doesn't cure the disease
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<xmn> izabera: No problem. Thanks for what :D
<xmn> DocScrutinizer05: You make some great points
<xmn> I guess I'd like to have both :P
<xmn> But yes if you can't trust your system your screwed
<DocScrutinizer05> even RMS doesn't request HW switches. What he wants is a SW-switch for modem and a pager to passively sense inbound calls so the OS could axtivate the modem (*NOT* the user by sliding a HW switch)
<xmn> Though I do like what they are do with the secureboot (name?), for their laptops if anything was changed it warns you.
<xmn> And it does make sense to have the machine who listen 24/7 and can act in milliseconds vs a human that is looking at some social media video thing and would take minute to even notice :D
<DocScrutinizer05> windows warns you since win95 about certain stuff. Nobody understands the warnings though
<DocScrutinizer05> "do you want to start FDISK with administrator permissions?" <TL;DR> OK!
<xmn> lol
<DocScrutinizer05> "CMD.exe CHANGED!!!" <TL;DR-WTF?!> OK!
<izabera> my bf brought up the same argument about kill switches
<sixwheeledbeast> Virus.exe wants to access your system. Please enter Admin password! Password1...
<clapont> DocScrutinizer05: there are times when you wish to quickly switch off BT/wifi/screen.. although I 100% agree with the security "approach" that you mentioned :-)
<izabera> and that's why he's so keen on baseband isolation
<DocScrutinizer05> moin sixwheeledbeast :-D
<xmn> I'm not as knowledgeable as you in anyway when it come to these thing, but this sounds pretty compelling to me.
<xmn> I think these days it takes too much understanding of tech for most people to really know when things have gone bad. So kill switch could be a false sense of security, that could open them to more problems.
<DocScrutinizer05> >>Oksana nods - a lot can be transmitted in such seconds<< LTE 20Mbit uplink? 2MB/s
<dazinism> Android has had verified boot for a long time. Just you tend to loose it if you change the OS
<DocScrutinizer05> more than 3 old style floppy disks
<xmn> interesting
<izabera> why are yall pretending to be snowdens?
<xmn> maybe one of us is. Did you ever think of that?
<izabera> why are yall (minus at most one person) pretending to be snowdens?
<dazinism> CalyxOS, GrapheneOS, RattlesnakeOS all provide verified boot with an Open Source OS
<xmn> nice
<DocScrutinizer05> and in the end of the day the #1 problem, with looong distance to anything #2 or later: PEBCAK user allowing whatsapp to download all contacts
<xmn> What do you guy think of the librem key vs yubikey
<DocScrutinizer05> all apps are made in a way so they are intrinsically useless when you don't allow that rogue aspect
<xmn> dont get me started with all your contact giving away all their sh!t :(
<sixwheeledbeast> I wonder how Whatsapp get away with storing all those contact details with GDPR.
<xmn> One reason I love the n900 still. does everything I need and only the weather is really needed
<dazinism> The GrapheneOS Auditor App provides security audits that use cryptographic signing and the devices security hardware to attest the device is running the expected, unaltered OS
<DocScrutinizer05> sixwheeledbeast: ROTFL
<DocScrutinizer05> sixwheeledbeast: they ask for permissio
<xmn> yeah silly ppl give it to them freely
<sixwheeledbeast> They ask for permission from the user of the app but not all his/hers contacts
<xmn> Though one gdr slip up could change that no?
<sixwheeledbeast> It's personally identifiable inflammation.
<DocScrutinizer05> sixwheeledbeast: very interestig poit ideed
<dazinism> Isnt librem key just another key rebranded?
<sixwheeledbeast> Or potentially PI.
<xmn> yeah I would join a lawsuit for that
<sixwheeledbeast> If user stores your full name in contacts.
<xmn> but you could say the same about medical, financial info too
<sixwheeledbeast> Just batter them with subject access request.
<sixwheeledbeast> There is potantial for you to be added to Whatsapp without you knowing every minute of the day.
<xmn> sharing with partners. I read a 13 pg medical patience right the other while waiting for a family member and it incredible
<DocScrutinizer05> we all already are
<xmn> they can share soooo much with out asking you if you are not careful or sign the wrong thing.
<DocScrutinizer05> suckerberg knows YOU
<xmn> Really for me the only thing worth saving is you thoughts. We can assume everything else is compromised
<DocScrutinizer05> alas so true
* DocScrutinizer05 gave up
<xmn> and they are working on you thoughts too, so not much longer on predictable pattern based on your habits and post .. yyiippy
<DocScrutinizer05> indeed
<sixwheeledbeast> Difference between Whatsapp and Facebook RE GDPR is that they are allowed to harvest data with no personally identifiable information. You can have a tracking profile with your face and no name this would be fine under GDPR. Then if you sign up to facebook you have given consent to use PI on that account.
<xmn> I simple just tire to minimize the amount of data I personal hand over
<DocScrutinizer05> Amazon knows you're mpregnant before you do. Literally! no kidding
<xmn> lol, yup remember that story with the father DocScrutinizer05
<xmn> yeah very true sixwheeledbeast
<xmn> sad, but one of the reasons I'm torn in doing things like podcast or video or even using google hangouts
<xmn> they just suck it all up and store it for later.
<xmn> And people just don't care. Make my life harder in many ways
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<dazinism> The Auditor App is nice
<DocScrutinizer05> yeah, companies using google documents to share and co-edit texts and spreadsheets. How utterly silly
<sixwheeledbeast> So its a none issue for facebook to have a photo of you with geolocation posted by someone else as long as your PI isn't stored with them as a none user.
<xmn> yeah reason I just stay out of picture now. When I can.
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<xmn> yeah DocScrutinizer05, company just sharing all there secret sauce with outside company ... cray cray crazy.
<DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
<DocScrutinizer05> and you'd come to see this habit in companies where you'd expect the least
<DocScrutinizer05> e.g. Openmoko
<DocScrutinizer05> and a few other in my last 15 years
<dazinism> CalyxOS is also supported by the Auditor App, along with many stock Android OS. Can quickly add devices launched with Android , theres an option to submit data in the app, if they arent already supported.
<DocScrutinizer05> generally the more a company is about commuity and FOSS, the less any sense of google being rogue can be found
<dazinism> *launched with Android Oreo or Pie
<xmn> I never understood how everyone jumps on github, slack, goggle doc etc when with just a tiny bit of effort these days you can have it all
<xmn> I mean hot dam nextcloud is so dope these days
<DocScrutinizer05> ~trust
<infobot> extra, extra, read all about it, trust is safe, or
<DocScrutinizer05> xmn: pondering to get a nextcloud instance
<dazinism> Annoys me that most people default to Google Docs
<dazinism> Nextcloud is great
<DocScrutinizer05> I evaluated it for a project of PIA
<xmn> yeah, I hate it. client use google calendar and it had a hangout link in there. I'm like why is there a video link if everyone is in the same room ... sign
<DocScrutinizer05> sucks
<xmn> DocScrutinizer05: Nextcloud, actually owncloud has be transformative for me. It's has allowed me to continue using my n900 and still sync files, contacts and calendar.
<DocScrutinizer05> though really whatsap is worse
<xmn> well thankfully I probably wont need to use hangout
<DocScrutinizer05> xmn: now THAT is a great info
<xmn> not on whatsapp
<DocScrutinizer05> do you prefer owncloud?
<xmn> DocScrutinizer05: yeah
<DocScrutinizer05> hmmm
<DocScrutinizer05> I found it feels too ... commercial
<xmn> no, not really. I have to keep an old vers for the n900. Until I have time to test a sync script to replace the onwcloud CL app
<dazinism> Nextcloud gets loads more development and use though doesnt it??
<DocScrutinizer05> not clear about which I prefer
<xmn> everything else should work with the nextcloud.
<xmn> once I can move to nextcloud I will
<DocScrutinizer05> huge issue with *cloud: security updates. no?
<xmn> so sorry I don't prefer owncloud, I just have to use it at the moment
<DocScrutinizer05> aaah ok
<dazinism> > huge issue with *cloud: security updates. no?
<dazinism> What you mean?
<xmn> though owncloud seems to be making a big move to modern frontend and backend. They made an announcement recently
<DocScrutinizer05> keep your own next cloud secure at all times
<DocScrutinizer05> needs some effort
<xmn> well it's getting better all the time. But yeah just like any server
<DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
<xmn> but with containers now, it should be much easier to handle updates and security
<xmn> well if you believe in container :D
<DocScrutinizer05> sorry folks, got an appointment. Need to run
<DocScrutinizer05> bbl
<xmn> cheers DocScrutinizer05
<xmn> fun chat!
<dazinism> xmn: I become increasingly weary of Purism. They create loafs of excitement and hype, hire loads of folks in communities they think will like their products, but often they dont live up to the hype
<dazinism> Quite a few folks have left them and didnt have a great experience working with them.
<xmn> yeah, I mostly agree. But they are important, as there investments in software and hardware can be used by other to continue. Look at pinephone. So I'm happy someone is trying, just like jolla. Even though sailfish is not the ideal open os, it's still currently better than android and iOS to me.
<xmn> It will be interesting how they manage expectations. I think the have the hype part right, but the delivery is not always immediately up to what they promised.
<xmn> But I'm happy they exist
<dazinism> I'm kinda into open android.
<xmn> That's cool, no shame in that. I just can't get behind anything google.
<xmn> Well I do watch a good amount of youtube :(. But with out an account :)
<dazinism> Yeah, thats a big problem with it for me. Also the model of development they follow isnt great.. Not really that open to external input
<xmn> nope
<dazinism> But all the hours spent on it pay off. Its a pretty well designed operating system
<xmn> And really they an open OS with closed software which they've moved all the important stuff behind. So I feel like why help them with market share. I'm happy for andriod base alternatives, but can't support them either. But this is just me.
<xmn> I wish I didn't feel like this. Life would be much easier
<dazinism> Not sure they've moved all the important stuff
<xmn> but got burnt by apple with the newton 2000, which I LOVED!! it was so ahead of it's time.
<xmn> But they killed it right when it was getting good.
<dazinism> I've been on Android for about 5 years, never had a phone with proprietary Google stuff
<xmn> At that point I said I will try and stay away from closed off formats and OS as best I can. So went zaurus 5500 and n900 :D
<dazinism> I've been constantly amazed at what my phones have been capable of
<xmn> nice
<dazinism> I wish there was a compelling alternative
<xmn> good on you man. Not judging. Kinda of envious sometimes. But for me it still help google take control of the market and pushed out other OS like firefox, sailfish, ubuntu OS, windows (yuk)
<dazinism> Yeah, I hear you
<xmn> well I'm hoping with hardware like purism, pinephone. This will start growing bigger
<xmn> the firefox phone was pretty success from a getting carries to sell it stand point at first .. lol
* DocScrutinizer05 just yesterday tried to get a decent IRC client on Samsung Note9, so installed UserLAnd and hexchat. Result: after 20 minutes the thing started spamming all chanels with constant rejoins. Prolly caused by android, in its eternal wisdom, suspending ULA task when locking screen
<DocScrutinizer05> fsck android
<xmn> all the carries seem to want to get away from apple and android. But then got scared or had backroom deals
<xmn> the docs back
<xmn> that was fast
<DocScrutinizer05> no, just prepared some papers for appointment still pending
<xmn> heh
<xmn> fine
<dazinism> Yeah, it'd be nice if there was a decent phone developed outside of Android or Apple
<xmn> well just pretend your still away ;P
<DocScrutinizer05> have to
<DocScrutinizer05> o/
<xmn> already said goodbye :D
<xmn> but they are slowly getting in bed with facebook and google ... :(
<xmn> it's becoming the 3 most popular OS be default
<dazinism> Oh
<dazinism> Not sure I liked the Firefox model, IIUC pretty much everything ran in the browser?
<xmn> I never used it in person. But with webapps these days it become less of an issue. How many apps are really just css, html and js anyway.
<xmn> But I hear what you saying.
<xmn> I'm hoping meego get new life again
<xmn> basically the best of sailfish just open
<xmn> like a nokia n950. but updated with modern features
<dazinism> I kind of suffer from geeking out on the architectural details of Android. Other stuff feels kind of old/broken/insecure.
<xmn> heh
<xmn> I get that
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<xmn> a billion dollar company, putting billions into it working to catch up and compete with apple. It should be amazing.
<dazinism> The amount of work that has, and continues to go into android.
<dazinism> Will take so long to get anything else to somewhere that is close to what android is now
<xmn> Well, google will soon likely need to fight their own PR nightmares. These may give good enough new OS a chance to at least become number 3. But they need to push progressive web apps as the way for big corps to join and keep local app for devoted devs and built in apps.
<xmn> black berry, sailfish and all the other relying on android apps to get people to use their OS. Never seem like a good long term strategy to me.
<dazinism> I wonder if anything could be built from something like seL4
<dazinism> But who would do all the work, to start fresh?
<dazinism> The roadmap is an interesting plan
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<dazinism> Maybe what you say about web apps could be the way, although they feel a bit crap. I makes sense to me to try to tap into all the development thats gone into all those android apps
<dazinism> All that effort to make things that work great on phones
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<xmn> I think the orginal meego approach was interesting. they I think basic too everything. QT app, maybe c, web apps. and I'm sure they would have done android eventually too
<xmn> I guess my main point is to make it super easier to people to move apps to it. and give people the chance to make money on there apps. Image having open store to buy apps from. If they have too much malware ... just go to the next big one :D
<xmn> How KaiOS is catching up with Android.
<sixwheeledbeast> if there was a move towards web apps there would be less dependency on proprietary app stores.
<xmn> yup
<sixwheeledbeast> I also liked Qt and the Maemo way but your unlikely to get development on another platform now, even Microsoft throwing pots of money at it didn't work.
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<sixwheeledbeast> HTML5 has a lot of support for most things an app needs to do now.
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<xmn> well qt had a real chance, since black berry, meego, ubuntu and even original tizen was suppose to support it.
<xmn> That was THE chance to really make a 3rd option OS or app platform at least
<sixwheeledbeast> There is still a lot of Qt development, it's a nice cross platform solutions IMO
<xmn> but the never thought to band together and make it work, idoits
<xmn> image if just BB, meego and ubuntu team up on an app platform or cross platform store ... :(
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<sixwheeledbeast> I think people are looking at it wrong. We should strive more to cross platform or web app solutions then mainstream dependency on a platform is removed
<dazinism> Mozilla is pushing geckoview
<sixwheeledbeast> Don't build a new app store aim open.
<dazinism> But that is kind of like the electron app model for phones
<xmn> yeah, I should probably not say store. Since qt apps can be download from any where.
<sixwheeledbeast> electron :shudder:
<xmn> but I still think giving many entry point for dev is the best way. give them all first class treatment too.
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<xmn> never heard of geckoview
<xmn> dazinism: where did you hear that it's an electron app? seem silly for mozilla to use another browser tech for their app.
<dazinism> Its not electron
<dazinism> Just the kind of the same model
<dazinism> Each app bundles its own copy of geckoview
<xmn> well, weren't they the OG in the regards :D. thunderbird, komodo code editor and more
<dazinism> So if you got a load of geckoview apps on your device you got loads of code duplication
<xmn> it's smart ... although a bit late
<dazinism> Plus you rely on every app dev to keep up with security updates
<xmn> :(, "GeckoView is pretty directly tied to the Android platform, so turning it into an Electron-like Desktop runtime isn’t directly feasible. We do, however, hope that Android developers find creative uses for GeckoView!"
<dazinism> Yeah, I think klar and focus were the first things to use it
<sixwheeledbeast> I am thinking similar to snaps and flatpak more than electron. i am not keen on that either.
<dazinism> Since about December
<sixwheeledbeast> As you say code duplication is very inefficient
<dazinism> Snaps, or maybe more likely Flatpak could have been good, introducing a decent app sandbox environment to linux desktop, but neither of them did
<sixwheeledbeast> But again you suffer from code duplication. There is also more chance of malicious code sneaking in.
<xmn> true
<dazinism> Yeah I guess, but with a decent app sandbox, malicious code is less problematic
<dazinism> As I said before I'm liking AOSP. I wish there was a compelling/competing open alternative phone, but I dont see anything great happening any time soon. Building from the open Android ecosystem feels like the smart move.
<dazinism> The reliance on Google isnt great, but they are somewhat tied to remaining open. Also how much of their code is in the Linux kernel, which every open phone project uses.
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<xmn> it will be interesting once fushia become the main platform.
<dazinism> Not sure that it will
<xmn> they keep saying it wont. But I think they will and replace chromeOS and android. Becoming a universal platform.
<DocScrutinizer05> ecosystem: you *need* a) compatibility (like hybris) to Android, and b) option for minimal to no mods to run geuine Linux X11 apps
<DocScrutinizer05> maemo checkmarks b) while providing a plethora of maemo-apps too.
<DocScrutinizer05> fuchsia is a major disruption
<DocScrutinizer05> and I honestly hope it *never* will become "main platform"
<DocScrutinizer05> though, actually can't get worse than it is right now with Android for me
<xmn> well I think it can get worst. Right now kids are mainly the victims of being forced to use chromeBooks and all there data being collected starting at a young age. But imagine if fushsia became bigger than windows and linux, maybe even mac os for most things. then there would be pretty much not data they could mine all the time :(.
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<houkime> and here i am, storming through IPC standards once again trying to understand how wide courtyards should be in each case.
<houkime> I actually have opened an issue about that a while ago, and suggested myself 0.25mm, but it is bigger then most current footprints have and i don't really remember a rationale.
<houkime> need to write better issues))
<houkime> though they DID help me to recover my memories and fix them (issues) quite a lot.
<houkime> anyway, reading IPC once again is always a good idea.
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<atk> webapps are slow
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