irc.freenode.net changed the topic of #ocaml to: OCaml 3.08 "Bastille Day" Release available ! -- Archive of Caml Weekly News: http://pauillac.inria.fr/~aschmitt/cwn , A tutorial: http://merjis.com/richj/computers/ocaml/tutorial/ , A free book: http://cristal.inria.fr/~remy/cours/appsem, Mailing List (best ml ever for any computer language): http://caml.inria.fr/bin/wilma/caml-list
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<cj> anyone who's been under a rock for the last 7 months and doesn't yet have a gmail account, let me know if you want one
<monochrom> I'm above a rock. A very large one. It's called Earth.
<monochrom> I already have two friends who can get me gmail accounts. I think I can make them bid for my favour.
* Riastradh wonders what's so exciting about having gmail accounts.
<cj> want to find out?
<Riastradh> No, that would imply that I'm actually interested.
<Riastradh> I'm only half-meta-interested.
<cj> I guess if you're using another web based email thingie (like hotmail), the 1GB is very attractive. Spam filters that are pretty good
<monochrom> Two factors. Google. Small supply.
<cj> The interface is kind of neat, I guess, but it's not like "OMFG BEST INTERFACE EVAR!" like some people like to say
<z|away> I thought hotmail had 2 GB now?
<monochrom> Actually three factors. Google. Small supply. Secret-society style of joining.
<cj> They're planning on making it 2GB, I don't know that it's actually happened yet
<Riastradh> Totally secret, of course.
<Riastradh> No way you're getting in there unless you're close with the right people.
<Riastradh> No one gives 'em away easily...
<monochrom> Well you can buy some from ebay.
<cj> nah, no one /amsg's IRC or anything
<z|away> That's advertising for you. Everyone thinks it is a special private club. But every and their grandmother now has an account and is enjoying google advertising!
<z|away> Those google boys are geniuses.
<Riastradh> They didn't trick me...
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<TheJohn> any web programmers here?
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<Smerdyakov> I have done some web programming..
<monochrom> I write programs. You can find me on the web. Am I a web programmer? :)
<Smerdyakov> Hm. In that case, monochrom's mom is at least half a web programmer.
<monochrom> Wow, I didn't know that heritage works backward!
<Smerdyakov> Well, what I meant is that I find your mom on the web all the time.
<monochrom> Impossible!
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<debona|r> What am I doing wrong here ?
<debona|r> open Unix
<debona|r> let dh = opendir ".";;
<Smerdyakov> What makes you think you're doing something wrong?
<debona|r> $ ocaml makeindex.ml
<debona|r> Reference to undefined global `Unix'
<debona|r> that's all I have in he file so far
<Smerdyakov> You don't have Unix specified on the command line.
<debona|r> I need to envoke ocaml with an argument to specify?
<Smerdyakov> Yes. You need to tell it which nonstandard libraries you want loaded.
<debona|r> didn't realize it was non standard
<debona|r> thanks
<Smerdyakov> Next time, you can check if something is on http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/htmlman/manual034.html :-)
<debona|r> ocaml unix.cmxa makeindex.ml doesn't work, ocamlc unix.cmxa makeindex.ml doesn't work, and ocamlopt unix.cmxa makeindex.ml does work. Ok, so I can compile the binary, but what if I want to byte compile to run with ocamlrun, or what if I want to use it as a script?
<debona|r> oh
<debona|r> cma for script
<TheJohn> Smerdyakov: hello, can ocaml be used with apache?
<monochrom> Have you considered putting unix.cma/unix.cmxa at the end?
<debona|r> monochrom: yes, I had, and it worked :)
<Smerdyakov> TheJohn, yes. I prefer to use an SML-based solution that I've made myself, though: http://smlweb.sf.net/
<monochrom> Yuck, it's supposed to come early, not late.
<mfurr> TheJohn, there is also mod_caml if you need O'Caml
<TheJohn> ok, thanks guys.
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<vincenz> netsplit?
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<slashvar1lri]> Yop
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<Osato> i've an error when packing ocalm! deals with the docs! i use a spec of the older version for suse, can anyone help me?
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<Axioplase> Chat Lu!
<vincenz> alo
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<TheJohn> ocaml_mod, is that stable?
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<Banana> greetings, people.
<docelic> greetings, banana dude.
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<jason__> Hm.
<jason__> I'm using a recursive function to read from a file and build a list of data points.
<jason__> How do I get it to stop when the list is complete?
<jason__> Like, do I need to use a try with End_of_file?
<Banana> exactly.
<Submarine_> indee
<jason__> Hm.. How do I get the list I built recursively to persist?
<Banana> ?
<Submarine_> persist?
<jason__> Like, if I do "try with End_of_file" I want the function to return the xPts yPts and zPts.
<jason__> Ack, I gotta go, I'll ask later.
<Banana> ok.
<Submarine_> you can stuff it into a reference
<Banana> or use an accumulator and a tail recursive function.
<Banana> but you'll have to reverse your list after.
<Banana> (if order matters).
<Submarine_> List.rev is your friend, and is tail recursive afaik.
<Banana> no, I meant a tail rec function to read the file.
<Submarine_> yeah, but you said he needed to reverse the list later...
<Banana> yes.
<Submarine_> for reading files I tend to write lists
<Submarine_> oops
<Submarine_> write loops
<Banana> which are equivalent to tail recursive functions.
<Submarine_> I should give as an exercise to students the task to write the same as recursive, good idea.
<Submarine_> Banana, and are equivalent to having inductive time with negative constructors.
<Submarine_> inductive types, I meant
<Banana> (i just wanted to give a solution that works** in practice... ;)
<Submarine_> # type explode = Explode of (explode -> unit);;
<Submarine_> type explode = Explode of (explode -> unit)
<Submarine_> #
<Submarine_> # let f z = match z with Explode g -> g z;;
<Submarine_> val f : explode -> unit = <fun>
<Submarine_> # f (Explode f);;
<Banana> i know i know.
<Banana> but it seems like brain dammage just to read one file...
<Submarine_> depends... some people seem to enjoy writing stuff in continuation passing style
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<vincenz> Submarine_: what's the explode do?
<Submarine_> it loops forever
<Submarine_> it's a fancy way to write Y, basically
<vincenz> ah
<vincenz> I never quite got the Y combinator
<vincenz> in cps
<vincenz> how od you get it to stop?
<vincenz> for loops
<Submarine_> you don't call the continuation
<vincenz> how do you return a value then?
<Submarine_> or rather, you pass it another continuation for the exit
<vincenz> ah
<Submarine_> you have two continuations: one that is the fixpoint, and another for the exit
* vincenz nods
<vincenz> how do you pass the value then in that Y combinator?
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<Submarine_> # type explode = Explode of ((int -> unit) -> int -> explode -> int -> unit);;
<Submarine_> type explode = Explode of ((int -> unit) -> int -> explode -> int -> unit)
<Submarine_> # let f out input z = function 0 -> out input | n -> match z with Explode g -> g out (n * input) z (pred n);;
<Submarine_> val f : (int -> unit) -> int -> explode -> int -> unit = <fun>
<Submarine_> # f print_int 1 (Explode f) 5;;
<Submarine_> 120- : unit = ()
<vincenz> ah :)
<Submarine_> with some effort you can turn this into a general combinator
<vincenz> cool thanks :)
<Submarine_> that's why, essentially
<Submarine_> 1/ you never allow negative constructors in inductive types in calculi with strong normalization
<Submarine_> ex: Coq won't allow the above
<vincenz> negative constructors?
<Submarine_> 2/ once you have inductive types with negative constructors, you have Y and infite recursions
<vincenz> you mean non-constructive?
<Submarine_> well, Explode of explode -> unit
<vincenz> recursive...
<Submarine_> the explode inside is within one ->
<Submarine_> you count the number of imbricated ->
<vincenz> !google imbricated
<vincenz> why specifically -> tho?
<Submarine_> because!
<vincenz> and then I assume you can only have zero or negative but never positive?
<Submarine_> it's parity that matters
<vincenz> Submarine_: I mean...theoretically...why -> and not other recursive type-defs
<Submarine_> negative = odd parity
<Submarine_> think (-1)^n
<Submarine_> because the others don't matter
<Submarine_> * does not matter
<vincenz> so
<vincenz> Explode of explode -> int -> unit would be fine
<Submarine_> think of the translation of inductive types into system F :-)
<Submarine_> no
* vincenz is an EE engineer and sadly does not have this background
<Submarine_> you have one imbricated ->
<Submarine_> it's Explode of explode -> (int -> unit)
<Submarine_> -> by default associates like this a -> (b -> c)
<vincenz> yeah
<vincenz> binds to the right
<Submarine_> so here it's only one ->
<vincenz> (explode -> unit) -> unit
<Submarine_> this should not be able to loop, afaik
<vincenz> wow
<vincenz> I'd love to see the proof o fthis theorem
<Submarine_> that it does not loop?
<Submarine_> I think you can do it as follows: translate the inductive types into System F or the Calculus of Constructions, then use the fact that these calculi are strongly normalizing.
<Submarine_> Afaik the translating only works well if the term is positively recursive.
<Submarine_> the proof of strong normalization of System F is in Jean-Yves Girard's book, if I remember well
<vincenz> No need to explain
<vincenz> but I don't know what system F is
<Banana> vincenz: if you are interested in these things, maybe you can have a look at "types and programming languages" by Benjamin Pierce.
<Submarine_> System F is the second order lambda calculus.
<vincenz> thxn
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<Submarine_> Banana, with all respect I have for Pierce, I think that Girard's book is available in French. :-)
<Banana> But with all respect I have for Girard, Pierce book is more understandable even in english ;-)
<Banana> I sugested the tapl because it gives a general view of many types systems (ML, System F...) and many features (polymorphism, subtyping,...) and show what problems arise when you want to mix all that together.
<Banana> plus there are exercices and code exemples.
<Submarine_> Granted, Girard is a pompous and pretentious man.
<Submarine_> Pierce is quite friendly.
<Banana> Submarine_: is he really ?
<Submarine_> Benjamin Pierce?
<Banana> non Girard.
<Submarine_> Well, he definitely sounds like he is.
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<Submarine_> My impression was that he was a kind of genius, but very eager to show it.
<Banana> yeah some french scientist are like this.
<Banana> (Patrick Cousot, not to name him...)
<Submarine_> shit
<Banana> what ?
<Submarine_> Are you saying that by mere chance or was it deliberate?
<Banana> well i have been to a lecture by patrick cousot.
<Banana> so i can tell.
<Submarine_> where?
<Banana> at ENS in Paris.
<vincenz> thnx
<Banana> is lecture on abstract interpretation.
<Submarine_> wow, interesting... his grad course?
<Banana> yes.
<Banana> i only went to the first one.
<Submarine_> Dea de semantique?
<Banana> :)
<Banana> I just finished it today :)
* Submarine_ ROTFL.
<Banana> bon je vois que le canal est trusté par le dea...
<Submarine_> en fait je suis enseignant au DEA de semantique
<Banana> et tu n'es pas patrick cousot.
<Submarine_> non, c'etait mon directeur de these
<Banana> haaaa.
<Submarine_> ceci dit, au hit parade des mecs pretentieux, je peux citer
<Submarine_> Girard, Ed Clarke, Larry Paulson
<Submarine_> (enfin, ce dernier a une facon bizarre d'exposer)
<Banana> heu t'as enseigné quoi dans le DEA ?
<Submarine_> semantiques probabilistes
<Smerdyakov> It's great that you guys care so much about shielding those of us who don't speak French from the harsh realities of your conversations.
<Submarine_> Smerdyakov, I've just realized that Banana was in the graduate program where I teach.
<Smerdyakov> That is pretty harsh.
<Submarine_> Smerdyakov, and we were discussing pretentious profs... He says Patrick Cousot sounds quite pretentious.
<Banana> Smerdyakov: sorry sorry, my bad.
<Banana> Submarine_: well isn't he ?
<Submarine_> My opinion is that he's perhaps not as bad as Girard, Clarke and Moshe Vardi.
<Submarine_> Banana, "opinionated" is perhaps a better word, and he likes too much having fun.
<Banana> yes...
<Submarine_> I'll refrain from criticizing my dear colleagues, but there are a number of people with a high opinion of themselves anyway.
<Banana> maybe i'm a bit frustrated because i was not able to follow the "Cousot flying slideshow".
<Banana> something like 300 slides/hour where he supposes we know everything about Gallois's correspondances and things like this.
<vincenz> HEy Smerdyakov ?
<Smerdyakov> Yeees?
<vincenz> Scott McPeak, what year is he in in his PhD prorgam?
<Submarine_> Banana, agreed.
<Smerdyakov> 6
<vincenz> hmm
<vincenz> damn
<Smerdyakov> Why?
<vincenz> I retalked with my supervisor today, it seems he'd prefer me to stick to c++ nonetheless
<vincenz> two solutions for parsing c++: EDG or Elkhound
<Submarine_> Banana, I won't comment too much on that, my course was probably not very good either.
<vincenz> I prefer elkhound: it's ocaml it's opensouce, etc
<vincenz> however if he's almost done with his PhD I run the risk of having an unsupported product in 2 years
<vincenz> well not unsupported but unmaintained/discarded
<Smerdyakov> Yup. We've got a research programmer here making a new C++ front end, but I don't think it's implemented in OCaml.
<vincenz> shit
<vincenz> I need a c++ frontend that I know is going to be well sustained
<Smerdyakov> Well, you should probably ask this guy, or I can ask him.
<vincenz> sure
<Smerdyakov> I don't know the details.
<vincenz> Could you give him my email?
<vincenz> why not continue with elsa though?
<vincenz> he seems to be working on the project already
<Submarine_> what's this elkhound?
<Submarine_> I once wrote a C frontend and don't want to do that again.
* Submarine_ considers taking Necula's frontend
<vincenz> elkhound is a new parser-generator
<Smerdyakov> Submarine_, there is nothing better than Cil in the whole universe.
<vincenz> Submarine_: necula's frontend aka Cil is from the same group as elkhound
<vincenz> But I need c++ not C
<Smerdyakov> Submarine_, I'm not even restricting the discussion to software. ;)
<Submarine_> Necula is going to visit ENS from January to June.
<Submarine_> to be fair, I wrote the frontend before CIL was public
<Smerdyakov> That's right, and that means I won't have a physical advisor for that period. :)
<vincenz> One of the small but critical shames of Cil is that it changes all loops to while loops
<Submarine_> ASTREE is the next best thing since sliced bread when it works.
<Smerdyakov> vincenz, why is that bad?
<vincenz> well in my domain for-loops are preferable
<vincenz> either way it's a non-issue now that I found out my advisor wants me to stick to full C++
<vincenz> he heard o fsoot and wants me to do something similar for C++
<Submarine_> soot? Laurie Hedren's?
<vincenz> soot the java thing
<Smerdyakov> vincenz, I don't understand this "for loops are preferable" business. for loops are a completely unnecessary feature of C.
<Submarine_> Banana, there's one thing good with Cousot, he's frank.
<vincenz> Smerdyakov: not for some tools that IMEC ahev developed for optimal-scratchpad usage
<Smerdyakov> vincenz, that is a fault in your tools.
<Smerdyakov> vincenz, for loops are trivially compiled into while loops.
<Smerdyakov> vincenz, and it's easy to recognize the pattern.
<Banana> Submarine_: i'll belive you. I've only spend some hours with him...
<vincenz> Smerdyakov: no...the bounds for scratchpad usage (for that tool that's been devloepd a whiole back and is now being sold commercially) needs statically analyzable bounds
<vincenz> Most of kandemir's work also needs statically analyzable bounds
<Submarine_> Banana, are you starting your phd? If I may inquire, with which advisor? :-)
<Smerdyakov> vincenz, and while loops have those whenever the original for's do.
<Banana> Submarine_: you might ask :)
<vincenz> Smerdyakov: they're less evident
<Smerdyakov> vincenz, nonsense. They're trivial to extract.
<vincenz> are they?
<Submarine_> vincenz, scratchpad as in temporaries inside special locked cache memory?
<Banana> Officially with Véronique Benzaken at LRI (Orsay).
<Banana> Unofficially with Beppe Castagna.
<Smerdyakov> vincenz, yes. It's easy to look at the loop and identify a test, for instance.
<vincenz> Submarine_: yeah...basically copy-candidates of bigger arrays for internal loops (After those loops have been ytransformed)
<Banana> in the CDuce team.
<Submarine_> Banana, oh, you're with Giuseppe? Will you be in the lingerie?
<Banana> I was this summer for my internship.
<Smerdyakov> "Lingerie"?!
<Banana> but from now on i'll be most of the time in Orsay.
<Submarine_> Smerdyakov, laundry room
<vincenz> lol
<Smerdyakov> Submarine_, ah. It means "frilly underwear for women" in America.
<Submarine_> Smerdyakov, the comp sci lab at ENS is partially installed in an attic called the laundry room
<Submarine_> Smerdyakov, this is the second meaning in French
<Submarine_> Smerdyakov, the officially name is the "computer science heights"
<Banana> (kof kof an attic, with dust, workers smashing walls with a sledge hammer, paint vapor, and so on).
<Submarine_> note to the channel: I've just understood Banana was in the same lab as me
<gl> da french crew.
<Banana> yo gl.
<Submarine_> he's in the attic, I'm in the basement
<gl> yo yo wesh wesh.
<Submarine_> I like Castagna.
<Banana> not to criticize but it seems all the Italian were "parked" in the attic...
<Banana> Castagna, Longo...
<Submarine_> it's not the reason
<Banana> Submarine_: yes he is really cool.
<Banana> Submarine_: i hope it's not.
<Submarine_> first, Longo and Castagna were in the same group
<Submarine_> so it makes sense to relocate whole groups, and not split them
<Submarine_> second, I think that they tried to minimize the distance for people who gave courses
<Submarine_> neither castagna nor longo give courses
<Banana> ?
<Submarine_> all the other teams have profs
<Banana> they both do.
<Submarine_> the only exception is Pocchiola who was moved there
<Submarine_> no, they don't give magistere courses
<Banana> ha ok.
<Submarine_> the idea was that ENS students should be able to get easy access to the profs close to the teaching rooms
<Submarine_> at least, this is the official reason
<Submarine_> I let lab politics flow well above my head.
<Banana> yeah i've heard of something like that.
<Submarine_> there was also a question of relocating the entire Cousot team in one of the apartments nearby
<Banana> how many members are there in his team ?
<Submarine_> something like 7
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<Banana> hum... now that i think of it, Castagna will be pretty lonely this year.
<Submarine_> two of Cousot's PhD students are graduating
<Submarine_> he's taking in one
<Banana> Castagna's student is graduating too...
<Submarine_> Frisch?
<Banana> yeap.
<Banana> but he has already left for INRIA.
<Submarine_> Alain is exceedingly bright.
<Submarine_> Yes, I know. :-)
<Banana> Submarine_: don't tell me about it.
<Submarine_> Alain is from the Telecom Corps, he's detached to INRIA.
<Submarine_> INRIA people claim that Rocquencourt is excellent for work.
<Banana> but it's all trusted by "Normaliens"
<Submarine_> actually, Rocq used to be full of X-men :-)
<Submarine_> it's a recent evolution that it's now full of people from ENS and ENSL
<Banana> yes but X-men nowadays...
<Submarine_> few want to do science, esp compscoi
<Submarine_> examples of X-men: Dowek, Levy, Flajolet
<gl> and me.
<gl> my other nickname is Colossus
<gl> :/
<Submarine_> Alain is so good it depresses me.
<Submarine_> Ditto for Feret.
<Banana> Submarine_: and me then ??? i have yet to write my thesis. And when i even look at his master's thesis it seems far far away ...
<Submarine_> Feret or Frisch?
<Banana> Frisch.
<Submarine_> Well, my understanding is that he was educated and paid to be bright, so he cannot afford not to be unless he wants to bring shame onto himself. ;-)
<Banana> yes... but even among the other at ENS he is really brilliant.
<Banana> (i mean other student, no offence Submarine_ hey ? ;) )
<Submarine_> indeed
<Submarine_> as I said, it depresses me
<Submarine_> the amount of people more brilliant than myself and the incapacity I have of making non trivial research depresses me
<Banana> boooohhhh...
<gl> :)
<gl> tu peux toujours aller pisser du Java en SSII histoire de voir que finalement y'avait pas de quoi deprimer
<Banana> c'est sur.
<Submarine_> not ANOTHER student?
<Submarine_> aaaaah U-Psud!!!
<Banana> yeah.
<gl> I'm no longer at u-psud this year
<Submarine_> gl: and triple your paycheck
<Submarine_> gl: don't tell me you're also in the ENS attic
<gl> no :)
<Banana> would be fun though...
<Banana> but he's far to tall to fit in there :)
<gl> I'll do my phd at ENST (one letter makes the difference)
<Submarine_> in whose group?
<gl> uh, let me check
<gl> :)
<Submarine_> are you with Hughes Randriamsomething?
<gl> no, I'm in the Communication and Electronic group
<Banana> gl: take the grant wherever it is ? i know that :)
<gl> :)
<gl> submarine take a look at http://www.crypto.comelec.enst.fr/
<gl> I don't even know what I'm really supposed to do there
<Submarine_> ah d'you know Cedric Ware?
<Submarine_> and you're with Renaud Pacalet?
<gl> ah yeah
<gl> I've heard this name
<Submarine_> I know his wife.
<Submarine_> (Pacalet's)
<gl> In fact, tomor... this morning we'll have a team meeting, to present ourselves to each other
<Submarine_> ah ah you have h2o in your group!
<gl> yeah
<gl> I saw him, Sylvain Guilley, and Yves Mathieu
<Submarine_> h2o is fun... don't take him too literally
<gl> h2o seems to be ... special
<gl> but fun, as you said
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<Banana> good night, folks.
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<vincenz> Is there an SQL interface for ocaml?
<vincenz> And I've lookeda t mod_ocaml, it gives you no access to the session
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<pango> ocamldbi ? never used it, though
<Axioplase> ++
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