<cj>
anyone who's been under a rock for the last 7 months and doesn't yet have a gmail account, let me know if you want one
<monochrom>
I'm above a rock. A very large one. It's called Earth.
<monochrom>
I already have two friends who can get me gmail accounts. I think I can make them bid for my favour.
* Riastradh
wonders what's so exciting about having gmail accounts.
<cj>
want to find out?
<Riastradh>
No, that would imply that I'm actually interested.
<Riastradh>
I'm only half-meta-interested.
<cj>
I guess if you're using another web based email thingie (like hotmail), the 1GB is very attractive. Spam filters that are pretty good
<monochrom>
Two factors. Google. Small supply.
<cj>
The interface is kind of neat, I guess, but it's not like "OMFG BEST INTERFACE EVAR!" like some people like to say
<z|away>
I thought hotmail had 2 GB now?
<monochrom>
Actually three factors. Google. Small supply. Secret-society style of joining.
<cj>
They're planning on making it 2GB, I don't know that it's actually happened yet
<Riastradh>
Totally secret, of course.
<Riastradh>
No way you're getting in there unless you're close with the right people.
<Riastradh>
No one gives 'em away easily...
<monochrom>
Well you can buy some from ebay.
<cj>
nah, no one /amsg's IRC or anything
<z|away>
That's advertising for you. Everyone thinks it is a special private club. But every and their grandmother now has an account and is enjoying google advertising!
<z|away>
Those google boys are geniuses.
<Riastradh>
They didn't trick me...
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<TheJohn>
any web programmers here?
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<Smerdyakov>
I have done some web programming..
<monochrom>
I write programs. You can find me on the web. Am I a web programmer? :)
<Smerdyakov>
Hm. In that case, monochrom's mom is at least half a web programmer.
<monochrom>
Wow, I didn't know that heritage works backward!
<Smerdyakov>
Well, what I meant is that I find your mom on the web all the time.
<monochrom>
Impossible!
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<debona|r>
What am I doing wrong here ?
<debona|r>
open Unix
<debona|r>
let dh = opendir ".";;
<Smerdyakov>
What makes you think you're doing something wrong?
<debona|r>
$ ocaml makeindex.ml
<debona|r>
Reference to undefined global `Unix'
<debona|r>
that's all I have in he file so far
<Smerdyakov>
You don't have Unix specified on the command line.
<debona|r>
I need to envoke ocaml with an argument to specify?
<Smerdyakov>
Yes. You need to tell it which nonstandard libraries you want loaded.
<debona|r>
ocaml unix.cmxa makeindex.ml doesn't work, ocamlc unix.cmxa makeindex.ml doesn't work, and ocamlopt unix.cmxa makeindex.ml does work. Ok, so I can compile the binary, but what if I want to byte compile to run with ocamlrun, or what if I want to use it as a script?
<debona|r>
oh
<debona|r>
cma for script
<TheJohn>
Smerdyakov: hello, can ocaml be used with apache?
<monochrom>
Have you considered putting unix.cma/unix.cmxa at the end?
<debona|r>
monochrom: yes, I had, and it worked :)
<Smerdyakov>
TheJohn, yes. I prefer to use an SML-based solution that I've made myself, though: http://smlweb.sf.net/
<monochrom>
Yuck, it's supposed to come early, not late.
<mfurr>
TheJohn, there is also mod_caml if you need O'Caml
<TheJohn>
ok, thanks guys.
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<vincenz>
netsplit?
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<slashvar1lri]>
Yop
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<Osato>
i've an error when packing ocalm! deals with the docs! i use a spec of the older version for suse, can anyone help me?
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<Axioplase>
Chat Lu!
<vincenz>
alo
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<TheJohn>
ocaml_mod, is that stable?
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<Banana>
greetings, people.
<docelic>
greetings, banana dude.
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<jason__>
Hm.
<jason__>
I'm using a recursive function to read from a file and build a list of data points.
<jason__>
How do I get it to stop when the list is complete?
<jason__>
Like, do I need to use a try with End_of_file?
<Banana>
exactly.
<Submarine_>
indee
<jason__>
Hm.. How do I get the list I built recursively to persist?
<Banana>
?
<Submarine_>
persist?
<jason__>
Like, if I do "try with End_of_file" I want the function to return the xPts yPts and zPts.
<jason__>
Ack, I gotta go, I'll ask later.
<Banana>
ok.
<Submarine_>
you can stuff it into a reference
<Banana>
or use an accumulator and a tail recursive function.
<Banana>
but you'll have to reverse your list after.
<Banana>
(if order matters).
<Submarine_>
List.rev is your friend, and is tail recursive afaik.
<Banana>
no, I meant a tail rec function to read the file.
<Submarine_>
yeah, but you said he needed to reverse the list later...
<Banana>
yes.
<Submarine_>
for reading files I tend to write lists
<Submarine_>
oops
<Submarine_>
write loops
<Banana>
which are equivalent to tail recursive functions.
<Submarine_>
I should give as an exercise to students the task to write the same as recursive, good idea.
<Submarine_>
Banana, and are equivalent to having inductive time with negative constructors.
<Submarine_>
inductive types, I meant
<Banana>
(i just wanted to give a solution that works** in practice... ;)
<Submarine_>
# type explode = Explode of (explode -> unit);;
<Submarine_>
type explode = Explode of (explode -> unit)
<Submarine_>
#
<Submarine_>
# let f z = match z with Explode g -> g z;;
<Submarine_>
val f : explode -> unit = <fun>
<Submarine_>
# f (Explode f);;
<Banana>
i know i know.
<Banana>
but it seems like brain dammage just to read one file...
<Submarine_>
depends... some people seem to enjoy writing stuff in continuation passing style
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<vincenz>
Submarine_: what's the explode do?
<Submarine_>
it loops forever
<Submarine_>
it's a fancy way to write Y, basically
<vincenz>
ah
<vincenz>
I never quite got the Y combinator
<vincenz>
in cps
<vincenz>
how od you get it to stop?
<vincenz>
for loops
<Submarine_>
you don't call the continuation
<vincenz>
how do you return a value then?
<Submarine_>
or rather, you pass it another continuation for the exit
<vincenz>
ah
<Submarine_>
you have two continuations: one that is the fixpoint, and another for the exit
* vincenz
nods
<vincenz>
how do you pass the value then in that Y combinator?
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<Submarine_>
# type explode = Explode of ((int -> unit) -> int -> explode -> int -> unit);;
<Submarine_>
type explode = Explode of ((int -> unit) -> int -> explode -> int -> unit)
<Submarine_>
# let f out input z = function 0 -> out input | n -> match z with Explode g -> g out (n * input) z (pred n);;
<Submarine_>
val f : (int -> unit) -> int -> explode -> int -> unit = <fun>
<Submarine_>
# f print_int 1 (Explode f) 5;;
<Submarine_>
120- : unit = ()
<vincenz>
ah :)
<Submarine_>
with some effort you can turn this into a general combinator
<vincenz>
cool thanks :)
<Submarine_>
that's why, essentially
<Submarine_>
1/ you never allow negative constructors in inductive types in calculi with strong normalization
<Submarine_>
ex: Coq won't allow the above
<vincenz>
negative constructors?
<Submarine_>
2/ once you have inductive types with negative constructors, you have Y and infite recursions
<vincenz>
you mean non-constructive?
<Submarine_>
well, Explode of explode -> unit
<vincenz>
recursive...
<Submarine_>
the explode inside is within one ->
<Submarine_>
you count the number of imbricated ->
<vincenz>
!google imbricated
<vincenz>
why specifically -> tho?
<Submarine_>
because!
<vincenz>
and then I assume you can only have zero or negative but never positive?
<Submarine_>
it's parity that matters
<vincenz>
Submarine_: I mean...theoretically...why -> and not other recursive type-defs
<Submarine_>
negative = odd parity
<Submarine_>
think (-1)^n
<Submarine_>
because the others don't matter
<Submarine_>
* does not matter
<vincenz>
so
<vincenz>
Explode of explode -> int -> unit would be fine
<Submarine_>
think of the translation of inductive types into system F :-)
<Submarine_>
no
* vincenz
is an EE engineer and sadly does not have this background
<Submarine_>
you have one imbricated ->
<Submarine_>
it's Explode of explode -> (int -> unit)
<Submarine_>
-> by default associates like this a -> (b -> c)
<vincenz>
yeah
<vincenz>
binds to the right
<Submarine_>
so here it's only one ->
<vincenz>
(explode -> unit) -> unit
<Submarine_>
this should not be able to loop, afaik
<vincenz>
wow
<vincenz>
I'd love to see the proof o fthis theorem
<Submarine_>
that it does not loop?
<Submarine_>
I think you can do it as follows: translate the inductive types into System F or the Calculus of Constructions, then use the fact that these calculi are strongly normalizing.
<Submarine_>
Afaik the translating only works well if the term is positively recursive.
<Submarine_>
the proof of strong normalization of System F is in Jean-Yves Girard's book, if I remember well
<vincenz>
No need to explain
<vincenz>
but I don't know what system F is
<Banana>
vincenz: if you are interested in these things, maybe you can have a look at "types and programming languages" by Benjamin Pierce.
<Submarine_>
System F is the second order lambda calculus.
<vincenz>
thxn
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<Submarine_>
Banana, with all respect I have for Pierce, I think that Girard's book is available in French. :-)
<Banana>
But with all respect I have for Girard, Pierce book is more understandable even in english ;-)
<Banana>
I sugested the tapl because it gives a general view of many types systems (ML, System F...) and many features (polymorphism, subtyping,...) and show what problems arise when you want to mix all that together.
<Banana>
plus there are exercices and code exemples.
<Submarine_>
Granted, Girard is a pompous and pretentious man.
<Submarine_>
Pierce is quite friendly.
<Banana>
Submarine_: is he really ?
<Submarine_>
Benjamin Pierce?
<Banana>
non Girard.
<Submarine_>
Well, he definitely sounds like he is.
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<Submarine_>
My impression was that he was a kind of genius, but very eager to show it.
<Banana>
yeah some french scientist are like this.
<Banana>
(Patrick Cousot, not to name him...)
<Submarine_>
shit
<Banana>
what ?
<Submarine_>
Are you saying that by mere chance or was it deliberate?
<Banana>
well i have been to a lecture by patrick cousot.
<Banana>
so i can tell.
<Submarine_>
where?
<Banana>
at ENS in Paris.
<vincenz>
thnx
<Banana>
is lecture on abstract interpretation.
<Submarine_>
wow, interesting... his grad course?
<Banana>
yes.
<Banana>
i only went to the first one.
<Submarine_>
Dea de semantique?
<Banana>
:)
<Banana>
I just finished it today :)
* Submarine_
ROTFL.
<Banana>
bon je vois que le canal est trusté par le dea...
<Submarine_>
en fait je suis enseignant au DEA de semantique
<Banana>
et tu n'es pas patrick cousot.
<Submarine_>
non, c'etait mon directeur de these
<Banana>
haaaa.
<Submarine_>
ceci dit, au hit parade des mecs pretentieux, je peux citer
<Submarine_>
Girard, Ed Clarke, Larry Paulson
<Submarine_>
(enfin, ce dernier a une facon bizarre d'exposer)
<Banana>
heu t'as enseigné quoi dans le DEA ?
<Submarine_>
semantiques probabilistes
<Smerdyakov>
It's great that you guys care so much about shielding those of us who don't speak French from the harsh realities of your conversations.
<Submarine_>
Smerdyakov, I've just realized that Banana was in the graduate program where I teach.
<Smerdyakov>
That is pretty harsh.
<Submarine_>
Smerdyakov, and we were discussing pretentious profs... He says Patrick Cousot sounds quite pretentious.
<Banana>
Smerdyakov: sorry sorry, my bad.
<Banana>
Submarine_: well isn't he ?
<Submarine_>
My opinion is that he's perhaps not as bad as Girard, Clarke and Moshe Vardi.
<Submarine_>
Banana, "opinionated" is perhaps a better word, and he likes too much having fun.
<Banana>
yes...
<Submarine_>
I'll refrain from criticizing my dear colleagues, but there are a number of people with a high opinion of themselves anyway.
<Banana>
maybe i'm a bit frustrated because i was not able to follow the "Cousot flying slideshow".
<Banana>
something like 300 slides/hour where he supposes we know everything about Gallois's correspondances and things like this.
<vincenz>
HEy Smerdyakov ?
<Smerdyakov>
Yeees?
<vincenz>
Scott McPeak, what year is he in in his PhD prorgam?
<Submarine_>
Banana, agreed.
<Smerdyakov>
6
<vincenz>
hmm
<vincenz>
damn
<Smerdyakov>
Why?
<vincenz>
I retalked with my supervisor today, it seems he'd prefer me to stick to c++ nonetheless
<vincenz>
two solutions for parsing c++: EDG or Elkhound
<Submarine_>
Banana, I won't comment too much on that, my course was probably not very good either.
<vincenz>
I prefer elkhound: it's ocaml it's opensouce, etc
<vincenz>
however if he's almost done with his PhD I run the risk of having an unsupported product in 2 years
<vincenz>
well not unsupported but unmaintained/discarded
<Smerdyakov>
Yup. We've got a research programmer here making a new C++ front end, but I don't think it's implemented in OCaml.
<vincenz>
shit
<vincenz>
I need a c++ frontend that I know is going to be well sustained
<Smerdyakov>
Well, you should probably ask this guy, or I can ask him.
<vincenz>
sure
<Smerdyakov>
I don't know the details.
<vincenz>
Could you give him my email?
<vincenz>
why not continue with elsa though?
<vincenz>
he seems to be working on the project already
<Submarine_>
what's this elkhound?
<Submarine_>
I once wrote a C frontend and don't want to do that again.
* Submarine_
considers taking Necula's frontend
<vincenz>
elkhound is a new parser-generator
<Smerdyakov>
Submarine_, there is nothing better than Cil in the whole universe.
<vincenz>
Submarine_: necula's frontend aka Cil is from the same group as elkhound
<vincenz>
But I need c++ not C
<Smerdyakov>
Submarine_, I'm not even restricting the discussion to software. ;)
<Submarine_>
Necula is going to visit ENS from January to June.
<Submarine_>
to be fair, I wrote the frontend before CIL was public
<Smerdyakov>
That's right, and that means I won't have a physical advisor for that period. :)
<vincenz>
One of the small but critical shames of Cil is that it changes all loops to while loops
<Submarine_>
ASTREE is the next best thing since sliced bread when it works.
<Smerdyakov>
vincenz, why is that bad?
<vincenz>
well in my domain for-loops are preferable
<vincenz>
either way it's a non-issue now that I found out my advisor wants me to stick to full C++
<vincenz>
he heard o fsoot and wants me to do something similar for C++
<Submarine_>
soot? Laurie Hedren's?
<vincenz>
soot the java thing
<Smerdyakov>
vincenz, I don't understand this "for loops are preferable" business. for loops are a completely unnecessary feature of C.
<Submarine_>
Banana, there's one thing good with Cousot, he's frank.
<vincenz>
Smerdyakov: not for some tools that IMEC ahev developed for optimal-scratchpad usage
<Smerdyakov>
vincenz, that is a fault in your tools.
<Smerdyakov>
vincenz, for loops are trivially compiled into while loops.
<Smerdyakov>
vincenz, and it's easy to recognize the pattern.
<Banana>
Submarine_: i'll belive you. I've only spend some hours with him...
<vincenz>
Smerdyakov: no...the bounds for scratchpad usage (for that tool that's been devloepd a whiole back and is now being sold commercially) needs statically analyzable bounds
<vincenz>
Most of kandemir's work also needs statically analyzable bounds
<Submarine_>
Banana, are you starting your phd? If I may inquire, with which advisor? :-)
<Smerdyakov>
vincenz, and while loops have those whenever the original for's do.
<Banana>
Submarine_: you might ask :)
<vincenz>
Smerdyakov: they're less evident
<Smerdyakov>
vincenz, nonsense. They're trivial to extract.
<vincenz>
are they?
<Submarine_>
vincenz, scratchpad as in temporaries inside special locked cache memory?
<Banana>
Officially with Véronique Benzaken at LRI (Orsay).
<Banana>
Unofficially with Beppe Castagna.
<Smerdyakov>
vincenz, yes. It's easy to look at the loop and identify a test, for instance.
<vincenz>
Submarine_: yeah...basically copy-candidates of bigger arrays for internal loops (After those loops have been ytransformed)
<Banana>
in the CDuce team.
<Submarine_>
Banana, oh, you're with Giuseppe? Will you be in the lingerie?
<Banana>
I was this summer for my internship.
<Smerdyakov>
"Lingerie"?!
<Banana>
but from now on i'll be most of the time in Orsay.
<Submarine_>
Smerdyakov, laundry room
<vincenz>
lol
<Smerdyakov>
Submarine_, ah. It means "frilly underwear for women" in America.
<Submarine_>
Smerdyakov, the comp sci lab at ENS is partially installed in an attic called the laundry room
<Submarine_>
Smerdyakov, this is the second meaning in French
<Submarine_>
Smerdyakov, the officially name is the "computer science heights"
<Banana>
(kof kof an attic, with dust, workers smashing walls with a sledge hammer, paint vapor, and so on).
<Submarine_>
note to the channel: I've just understood Banana was in the same lab as me
<gl>
da french crew.
<Banana>
yo gl.
<Submarine_>
he's in the attic, I'm in the basement
<gl>
yo yo wesh wesh.
<Submarine_>
I like Castagna.
<Banana>
not to criticize but it seems all the Italian were "parked" in the attic...
<Banana>
Castagna, Longo...
<Submarine_>
it's not the reason
<Banana>
Submarine_: yes he is really cool.
<Banana>
Submarine_: i hope it's not.
<Submarine_>
first, Longo and Castagna were in the same group
<Submarine_>
so it makes sense to relocate whole groups, and not split them
<Submarine_>
second, I think that they tried to minimize the distance for people who gave courses
<Submarine_>
neither castagna nor longo give courses
<Banana>
?
<Submarine_>
all the other teams have profs
<Banana>
they both do.
<Submarine_>
the only exception is Pocchiola who was moved there
<Submarine_>
no, they don't give magistere courses
<Banana>
ha ok.
<Submarine_>
the idea was that ENS students should be able to get easy access to the profs close to the teaching rooms
<Submarine_>
at least, this is the official reason
<Submarine_>
I let lab politics flow well above my head.
<Banana>
yeah i've heard of something like that.
<Submarine_>
there was also a question of relocating the entire Cousot team in one of the apartments nearby
<Banana>
how many members are there in his team ?
<Submarine_>
something like 7
TheJohn has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
<Banana>
hum... now that i think of it, Castagna will be pretty lonely this year.
<Submarine_>
two of Cousot's PhD students are graduating
<Submarine_>
he's taking in one
<Banana>
Castagna's student is graduating too...
<Submarine_>
Frisch?
<Banana>
yeap.
<Banana>
but he has already left for INRIA.
<Submarine_>
Alain is exceedingly bright.
<Submarine_>
Yes, I know. :-)
<Banana>
Submarine_: don't tell me about it.
<Submarine_>
Alain is from the Telecom Corps, he's detached to INRIA.
<Submarine_>
INRIA people claim that Rocquencourt is excellent for work.
<Banana>
but it's all trusted by "Normaliens"
<Submarine_>
actually, Rocq used to be full of X-men :-)
<Submarine_>
it's a recent evolution that it's now full of people from ENS and ENSL
<Banana>
yes but X-men nowadays...
<Submarine_>
few want to do science, esp compscoi
<Submarine_>
examples of X-men: Dowek, Levy, Flajolet
<gl>
and me.
<gl>
my other nickname is Colossus
<gl>
:/
<Submarine_>
Alain is so good it depresses me.
<Submarine_>
Ditto for Feret.
<Banana>
Submarine_: and me then ??? i have yet to write my thesis. And when i even look at his master's thesis it seems far far away ...
<Submarine_>
Feret or Frisch?
<Banana>
Frisch.
<Submarine_>
Well, my understanding is that he was educated and paid to be bright, so he cannot afford not to be unless he wants to bring shame onto himself. ;-)
<Banana>
yes... but even among the other at ENS he is really brilliant.
<Banana>
(i mean other student, no offence Submarine_ hey ? ;) )
<Submarine_>
indeed
<Submarine_>
as I said, it depresses me
<Submarine_>
the amount of people more brilliant than myself and the incapacity I have of making non trivial research depresses me
<Banana>
boooohhhh...
<gl>
:)
<gl>
tu peux toujours aller pisser du Java en SSII histoire de voir que finalement y'avait pas de quoi deprimer
<Banana>
c'est sur.
<Submarine_>
not ANOTHER student?
<Submarine_>
aaaaah U-Psud!!!
<Banana>
yeah.
<gl>
I'm no longer at u-psud this year
<Submarine_>
gl: and triple your paycheck
<Submarine_>
gl: don't tell me you're also in the ENS attic
<gl>
no :)
<Banana>
would be fun though...
<Banana>
but he's far to tall to fit in there :)
<gl>
I'll do my phd at ENST (one letter makes the difference)
<Submarine_>
in whose group?
<gl>
uh, let me check
<gl>
:)
<Submarine_>
are you with Hughes Randriamsomething?
<gl>
no, I'm in the Communication and Electronic group
<Banana>
gl: take the grant wherever it is ? i know that :)