mfurr changed the topic of #ocaml to: OCaml 3.08.2 available! | Archive of Caml Weekly News: http://sardes.inrialpes.fr/~aschmitt/cwn/ | A free book: http://cristal.inria.fr/~remy/cours/appsem/ | Mailing List: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/wilma/caml-list/ | Cookbook: http://pleac.sourceforge.net/
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<JustinWick> wow that's a weird problem
<JustinWick> is that a BSD/OS X problem, tsume?
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<tsume> JustinWick: oh.. I'
<JustinWick> :)
<tsume> JustinWick: oh.. I'm just hacking
<tsume> coding == hacking in real terms
<tsume> JustinWick: its my fault I'm messing up my user enviroment :)
<tsume> JustinWick: its Dragonflybsd
<JustinWick> :-D
<JustinWick> whatsw that for again?
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<tsume> JustinWick: whats what for?
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<JustinWick> Dragonflybsd... I remember hearing about it but... yeah
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<tsume> JustinWick: its a better BSD OS which doesn't have flame mongering developers
<JustinWick> Oh okay. That's fine.
<tsume> like *cough* freebsd*
<tsume> phk == bastard
<JustinWick> My only BSD is OS X and it's good enough for me :)
<tsume> JustinWick: I wish I had a mac
<tsume> JustinWick: have a pb, eb, or imac?
<JustinWick> PB 17" =-D
<tsume> JustinWick: arg! I'm jealous
<tsume> JustinWick: how much?
<JustinWick> Uh... well originally just over $3000 but with all the upgrades etc... it's past $4000.
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<JustinWick> hmm
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<tsume> JustinWick: sounds like a dream machine :)
<tsume> JustinWick: I'm wanting a replacement for my desktop, but will buy a centrino however to install Dragonflybsd on
<tsume> JustinWick: maybe I could buy a mac afterwards
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<tsume> JustinWick: I like the fact that sometimes laptops can be placed under home insurance in case of theft :)
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<det> erk, I would have a hard time spending $3000 on a computer :)
<tsume> I wouldn't
<tsume> I would spent 10k on it if it meant quality
<det> ahh, OS X, 'nuff said :D
<tsume> Macs are great quality Ya! Mac power!
* tsume wants mp3 player.... /me looks
<det> tsume: What would you get for $3000? :)
<tsume> det: a beefed up pbook :)
<det> I spent $1200 for mine including monitor/speakers/keyboard/mouse/wireless card
<tsume> I would buy addons :)
* tsume is reading the ocaml ora book
<det> I can't think of any addon I would ever use
<tsume> this book is kinda big
<tsume> more memory ;)
<tsume> det: I have a gig in my desktop
<tsume> det: I would expand the pb to its max
<det> I have a gig, I have never needed more
<tsume> I need more
<det> What do you use your computer for that requires such vast ammount of memory
<tsume> I'm a serious developer who runs BSD OSes. I use up all my memory buffering data
<tsume> hehe.. video, analyzing data, etc
<det> "analyzing data"?
<det> "video"?
<tsume> yes, all types of input data, from kernel to external devices :)
<det> so you mean compiling a kernel?
<tsume> no, going through the kernel (tracing) and examining the dumps
<tsume> its _fun_
<tsume> hmm
<tsume> det: you know ocaml well?
<det> I bet you go to the library to put books in the dewey decimal system, freak :)
<det> tsume: somewhat, I prefer SML
<tsume> det: hehe :) I'm the ultimate knowledge freak.
<det> tsume: although they are practically the same language excepting a few ocaml features
<tsume> det: other people go out have fun and drink. I'm in reading books gaining more knowledge and earning more money
<det> tsume: hey, whatever floats your boat, no competition here :)
<tsume> det: please explain to me how list modifies this line "Node of 'a * 'a teee list"
<tsume> I'm sitting here staring at the code
<tsume> the ocaml book is written like as if it was written by Bjarne
<det> I dont understand what you mean
<tsume> horribly written
<det> looks like a tree structure
<tsume> type 'a tree = Empty | Node of 'a * 'a tree list;;
<det> do you understand variants?
<tsume> I come from C/C++ :) enlighten the syntax
<det> maybe perenthesising things will help
<tsume> I find ocaml interesting, the number pitfalls don't concern me because I'm a careful coder.
<det> Node of 'a * ('a tree list)
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<tsume> oh I understand that part
<det> What are you not understanding?
<tsume> this book keeps going over advanced examples before explaining them
<tsume> 'a tree list
<det> oh
<det> ('a tree) list
<tsume> I know tree is a type of any specified by 'a
<det> a list of trees of type 'a
<tsume> okay, so its expecting a list?
<tsume> like saying.. tree:list?
<det> type 'a tree = Empty | Node of 'a * 'a tree list;;
<det> as in
<tsume> so the syntax is just specifying the type..
<det> 'a tree is either Empty or a Node of an 'a and a list of trees (of type 'a)
<tsume> the syntax of ocaml is cute.
<det> it is specifying types and Constructors
<tsume> I guess parsing "'a tree:list" would be painful
<tsume> det: yes, thank you. I understand now.
<det> that makes no sense
<tsume> det: erm.. well in specifying the arguments pf a procedure :)
<tsume> *of
<det> I dont understand
<tsume> let funny_func (x:int) (y:float) = function.. etc etc
<tsume> det: just trying to organise the language in my head *humms*
<det> now try an exampke containing what you just typed :)
<tsume> det: I don't know if that specific line is correct. specifying functions are kinda scrwy to me until I get familiar with ocaml
<tsume> *scrwy
<tsume> _grr_ *s.c.r.e.w.y.*
<det> If you really meant (tree: 'a list) then tree would be a poor name as 'a is node a tree
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<tsume> I wish I could delete all C++ knowledge from my brain
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<det> I mean "as 'a list is not a tree"
<det> tsume: you realize you dont need to specify the types?
<tsume> det: I know..
<tsume> let funny_fun x y = function...
<det> SML has a nicer syntax IMO
<tsume> det: ocaml supports more platforms, even windows.
<tsume> det: besides.. mldonkey++ ;)
<det> granted
<det> SML supports windows however
<det> both MLton and SML/NJ
<tsume> det: no, it supports cygwin
<det> MLton has a cygwin -> Mingw cross compiler in CVS
<tsume> cygwin never counts. Its slow and bloated.
<det> is SML/NJ on windows cygwin?
<tsume> det: once they get a native windows port, then I'll consider it.
<det> I ws under the vague impression it was not
<det> tsume: Cygwin is a supperior development enviroment, all that matters is delivering native executables
<tsume> det: cygwin is _very_ slow.
<det> What about it is slow?
<det> I mean, compiler a porjects is a single exec to MLton
<det> and a couple gcc execs (gas)
<tsume> the I/O calls are slow, the api calls to the windows enviroment are slow. forking is a hack and a very slow implementation
<det> but that only affects the compiler
<det> and none of those things relate to it
<tsume> no
<det> in any meaningful way
<tsume> its the cygwin enviroment
<det> I dont understand
<det> A cygwin -> mingw cross compiler produces executables unhindered by cygwin's suckyness
<det> and cygwin wouldnt effect the compiler in any meaningful way
<tsume> you don't need cygwin to use ming.
<det> I understand
<tsume> I've compiled ruby using mingw on windows dozens of times
<tsume> why even bother with cygwin?
<det> why does it matter?
<det> it simplifies things
<tsume> how so?
<det> the cygwin enviroment is more like *nix, and you can generate mingw executables
<tsume> there needs to be a native windows port, not some hack.
<det> How is it a hack?
<tsume> its not a solution, its a work around
<det> most mingw software is compiled this way
<det> using cygwin's gcc with -mno-cygwin -mwindows
<tsume> no, most on windows when being used is compiled by mingw straight forward without a cygwin environment
<tsume> msys is great for unix like development under windows
<det> msys is just a cygwin fork
<det> right?
<tsume> no. its not
<tsume> its just a simple windows with a csh for windows
<tsume> *window
<det> MSys does what cygwin does, i am almost certain
<tsume> the native ports for vi, etc are installed with it
<det> let me look it up
<tsume> no
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<tsume> cygwin is an emulation enviroment
<det> so is msys
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<det> The POSIX layer used by MSYS is a fork of the 1.3.3 version of Cygwin . Cygwin is a full POSIX layer and UNIX-like environment for Win32 providing both server and client utilites.
<tsume> det: and its not slow.
<det> I cant speak for its speed
<det> but the principle is the same
<tsume> they don't use a huge runtime. msys is just meant for devel/compile
<det> What does it matter, it is for development only
<det> it does hinder your users what so ever
<det> does not*
<tsume> not cygwin, that isn't the focus
<det> you dont understand
<tsume> people try running X from cygwin, etc.
<det> MLton can produce 100% native windows binaries
<det> you are confusing several different issues
<tsume> I'm still waiting on a native windows version for MLton
<det> most mingw software is compiled under cygwin with a cygwin gcc
<det> a windows version of MLton would serve very little purpose
<tsume> I don't want to link a program to cygwin1.dll to run mingw/mlton just to get a IDE to understand the concept of compile.
<det> Why does the IDE need to know anything about cygwin
<tsume> the mingw in cygwin is linked to cygwin1.dll
<det> you mean gcc -mno-cygwin?
<tsume> it still needs cygwin runtime to compile
<tsume> not the final binary, but to run
<det> so?
<det> the IDE doesnt need to know this
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<det> MSys programs require a msys.dll (or similar) I am sure
<det> fact is, you need POSIX enviroment for development, whether it be MSys or Cygwin
<det> going out of your way to do a native windows port is a large waste of time
<JustinWick> Is anyone in here intimately familiar with YACC/Bison type grammars?
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<JustinWick> I'm having a difficult problem that probably has a simple but weird solution.
<creichen> Hi! Quick question: If I use ocamlc.opt -dlambda, does that give me the byte-compiler's "lambda" form, or the "closed lambda" form?
<det> creichen: "lambda" is O'Caml's IL, yes?
<creichen> Yes.
<creichen> One of the ILs, actually...
<det> It has two distinct ILs?
<det> ahh
<creichen> My understanding is that it translates the parsed AST into lambda, which goes directly to bytecode for the bytecode compiler...
<creichen> but for the opt compiler it then translates lambda into "closed lambda" form, and then into "C--" (which is quite distinct from http://www.cminusminus.org, though the name was copied from the O'Caml IL), and then to machine language.
<creichen> There might also be something called 'arch' in between... not sure what to make of that yet.
<det> Thanks for the clarification
<det> For the second there I thought C-- was nto vapourware :D
<creichen> Some people claim that SPJ's C-- actually is vapourware ;-)
<creichen> (that's the one from http://www.cminusminus.org)
<det> yeah, that is what I meant :)
<creichen> It seems to have a fairly good design, but they only have a very rough prototype implementation, from what I can tell.
<det> SPJ is GHC, yes?
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<creichen> There may also be some
<creichen> Sorry, wrong channel...
<creichen> SPJ is the GHC guy, yes.
<creichen> (Simon Peyton Jones)
<det> Yeah, I dont imagine he has much time available
<JustinWick> Hmmm... no one around knows about ocamlyacc?
<creichen> JustinWick: I've used it once...
<JustinWick> I just have this really stupid problem.. I'm making a YACC grammar for a simplified ocaml dialect... My problem is I can't seem to get it to parse something like this right:
<JustinWick> func f a b = f a b
<JustinWick> It seems to think "a b" is calling a function "a" with "b" as the paramater
<JustinWick> it's reading it like
<JustinWick> func f a b = f (a (b))
<JustinWick> I want it to read it like
<JustinWick> func f a b = (f a) b
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<JustinWick> I tried screwing with associativity but... I'm not sure what to do.
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<creichen> you have to make it left associative, that's definitely true.
<creichen> One second, please...
<JustinWick> The problem is... it's a conflict between "variable value" and "function name"
<JustinWick> :(
<creichen> You should have some rule like "<APP> -> <APP> <NAME>" to handle recursion (assuming that you represent application directly on the AST).
<creichen> That should enforce left-associativity.
<creichen> Modulo ocamlyacc syntax.
<JustinWick> hmmm...
<JustinWick> *thinks*
<JustinWick> <app> <name> where name is what?
<creichen> <name> would be, well, a name. A terminal, actually. Assuming you don't support infix syntax, you could actually just use
<creichen> <expr> ::= <name> | <expr> <name> | <literal> | "case" <case-branches>
<creichen> or something like that.
<JustinWick> nah I'm infix
<JustinWick> you're saying that something like:
<JustinWick> <app> <name list> is bad?
<JustinWick> where <namelist> -> <name> <name-list>
<creichen> Yes, that's bad. This is right-associative.
<JustinWick> alright
<JustinWick> So that's my problem :)
<JustinWick> So...
<creichen> <namelist> -> <namelist> <name> should work.
<creichen> I think.
<JustinWick> let me try
<creichen> (It's been a year since I took a compilers class, but this looks about right to me.)
<JustinWick> This is making some sense.
<JustinWick> Well I skipped the compilers class because my degree was physics :-D
<JustinWick> I did the chip design class though... so ask me about MIPS any time :-P
<creichen> ;-)
* Riastradh mumbles incomprehensibly about compilers & parsers & unnecessary conflation.
* JustinWick is having more fun with his "toy" language
* creichen wonders why people ever went away from nice, clean LISP syntax
* Riastradh inserts S-expressions into those mumblings.
<Riastradh> Indeed.
<JustinWick> Does anyone know what kind of languages exist that use repeated simplification - in the presence of undefined data (leaving indeterminate expressions alone) as their execution method?
<Riastradh> Scheme's SYNTAX-RULES pattern language I believe meets that.
<JustinWick> So... you can run a program in it partially even if you didn't define all inputs
<JustinWick> and then save the state of that program
<JustinWick> then get more info back in... and simplify it more?
<JustinWick> etc
<Riastradh> Well, that describes partial evaluation.
<Riastradh> Which is usually not the 'main execution method' but more frequently a compiler optimization.
<JustinWick> RIght.
<JustinWick> I'm looking for it as part of a purely functional language (that's what I"m making).
<Riastradh> There's a lot of research on the matter.
<JustinWick> I believe that for certain tasks it's ideal.
<Riastradh> Such as in parser generators, actually! http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/proglang/software/essence/
<JustinWick> Interesting :-D
<JustinWick> Basically I want to be able to write an implicit "data flow" type language that uses partial evaluation to allow for extremely low latency pipelined information processing (where most of the processing occurs outside of the language, the language is just the "conductor" of the operations)
<JustinWick> Alright anyways thanks everyone for your help... I might have it figured out but I'm not too crazy about the solution I seem to have found
<JustinWick> Goodnight all :)
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<mflux> hm, does there exist an exception analyzer for ocaml programs, to discover where there may be leaking exceptions?
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<_JusSx_> OCAML
<solarwind> Oh-Camel.
<_JusSx_> yeha
<_JusSx_> ocaml
<_JusSx_> ohhhhh cammmmelll
<solarwind> It's quite an unique thing in programming that the same animal is used by two programming languages.
<_JusSx_> what are?
<solarwind> Came. OCaml. Perl.
<_JusSx_> Objective caml
<_JusSx_> and ???
<solarwind> Camel too.
<_JusSx_> yeah perl
<_JusSx_> great animal
<solarwind> The camel? Or Perl?
<_JusSx_> camle
<_JusSx_> camel of course lol
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<pingouin> mflux: I think many people are looking for it, but I've never heard of anything doing exception analysis
<mflux> I believe there are such analyzers for some other languages
<mflux> maybe scheme
<pingouin> without typing, it's difficult to make a correct exception analysis I guess
<pingouin> does scheme has more "exceptions" than just call/cc ?
<pingouin> mflux: I think C++ and Java do that, Caml could but they're probably too busy or think it's worthless
<mflux> c++? java surely enforces it
<mflux> hmh, apparently there has been some interest on the subject by those involved with ocaml: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=349230
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<Msandin> doesn't Ocamlexn do something like that?
<mflux> 0 matches from google?
<Msandin> that should be ocamlexc http://caml.inria.fr/ocamlexc/ocamlexc.htm
<mflux> now this is something I was looking for, thanks ;)
<Msandin> i havent tried this, but enjoy:)
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<neale> I'm having trouble linking Xavier's agrep library
<neale> drteeth:~/tmp/testagrep$ ocamlc -o testagrep -I +agrep agrep.cma testagrep.ml
<neale> drteeth:~/tmp/testagrep$ ocamlopt -o testagrep -I +agrep agrep.cmxa testagrep.ml
<neale> gcc: /usr/lib/ocaml/3.08/agrep/agrep.a: No such file or directory
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* tsume is happy
<tsume> I'm rewriting parts of mldonkey so others don't view or have access to any of my file(downloaded or downloading) :)
<tsume> p2p leeching++
<neale> smimou: awake?
<pango> tsume: yuck
<tsume> pango: yummie! :)
<pango> tsume: do you have a good reason to do that ?
<pango> or rather, does it exist good reasons at all
<tsume> pango: poor upload speed of 15k and I don't want to allow even 1k ploads
<smimou> neale: yes ?
<pango> tsume: then don't use p2p
<pango> tsume: use newsgroups or something
<tsume> pango: I'm sending other data all the time, I need my upload
<tsume> pango: nah, I'll use p2p :)
<tsume> pango: mldonkey is nice after ptching
<pango> tsume: p2p users need your upload too
<tsume> *patching
<tsume> pango: they don't need, they want ;)
<pango> looks like a very poor excuse
<tsume> pango: nah. I'm just a nice guy looking for some more speed :)
<pango> no wonder why p2p networks slow down as they grow, they attrack lamers
<neale> smimou: have you ever tried to link agrep with ocamlopt? It keeps telling gcc to use /usr/lib/ocaml/3.08/agrep/agrep.a
<smimou> mmm let's see that
<tsume> i have amule and other clients patched as well :)
<neale> smimou: ocamlopt -o testagrep -I +agrep agrep.cmxa testagrep.ml
<smimou> gcc: /usr/lib/ocaml/3.08/agrep/agrep.a: No such file or directory
<smimou> ok
<smimou> I'll fix this
<neale> smimou: I think it's an upstream problem, when I installed from source it did the same thing.
<pango> tsume: I still think that if you're unable to understand what p2p is all about, you should use something else
<tsume> pango: nah
<tsume> pango: p2p to me is a big rotating ftp servers
* pango slaps tsume with a big rotation trout
<pango> s/rotation/rotating/
<tsume> memories!
<smimou> neale: mmm strange it seems that the file is named libagrep.a
<neale> smimou: well, ocamlopt also passes -lagrep
<pango> tsume: anyway, if you think you're clever, that's only your opinion
<neale> "gcc", "-o", "testagrep", "-I/usr/lib/ocaml/3.08", "/tmp/camlstartup52a670.o", "/u
<neale> sr/lib/ocaml/3.08/std_exit.o", "testagrep.o", "/usr/lib/ocaml/3.08/agrep/agrep.a", "/usr/lib/ocaml/3.08/stdlib.a
<neale> ", "-L/usr/lib/ocaml/3.08/agrep", "-L/usr/lib/ocaml/3.08", "-lagrep", "/usr/lib/ocaml/3.08/libasmrun.a", "-lm",
<tsume> pango: nah, I'm just deleting lines and returning nils :)
<neale> "-ldl"
<pango> brb
<neale> oops, sorry for multi-line
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<smimou> it's rather strange and I'm not very good at those libs things (I usually just use OCamlMakefile which does that very well)
<neale> I don'tu understand it either :)
<smimou> hehe
<neale> should I mail Xavier?
<smimou> no
<smimou> this works :
<smimou> ocamlopt -I . -o opttestagrep agrep.cmxa testagrep.ml
<neale> yes, but only if you have agrep.a in .
<neale> the README says you should be able to
<neale> ocamlopt -I +agrep ... agrep.cmxa ...
<cognominal> I am trying to use otags on its own sources
<cognominal> % otags -emacs -n *.ml
<cognominal> it gives an empty TAGS file
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<cognominal> what am I doing wrong?
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<tsume> pango your shell quit?
<pango> tsume: moving from work to home
<tsume> pango: you bad boi, irc from work.
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<pango> tsume: it's my life, since when do others matter to you anyway ;)
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<smimou> neale: I'll try to fix the pb with ocaml-agrep quickly, feel free to fill a BR in the meantime
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