dan2 changed the topic of #ocaml to: OCaml 3.08.2 available! | Archive of Caml Weekly News: http://sardes.inrialpes.fr/~aschmitt/cwn/ | A tutorial: http://merjis.com/richj/computers/ocaml/tutorial/ | A free book: http://cristal.inria.fr/~remy/cours/appsem/ | Mailing List: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/wilma/caml-list/ | Cookbook: http://pleac.sourceforge.net/
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<dross> I've not yet used ocaml with GUIs. how fast is the bytecode interpreted vs. native. And to java. I've learned java a while ago, but I've been using other languages. C,C++, Ada, Ruby. I'm curious on the runtime speed and overhead of OCAML.
<dross> Trying a couple applicatons with the gtk library. I hope it works well :)
<mrvn> ocaml is way faster than java due to the strict typing.
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<dross> mrvn: well. I've been reading. Would it be possib;e to ocreate a ocaml plugin for FF, MOZ, Konq, and IE?
<dross> mrvn: linked with GTK or TK of course...
<dross> mrvn: just a thought.
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<mrvn> dross: possible certainly.
<dross> mvIt would definiately promote ocaml
<dross> mrvn: ^^
<dross> mrvn: when using ocaml.. does it compile bytecode by default?
<mrvn> But what would be its use?
<dross> how would I compile native?
<dross> mrvn: web aplications like java
<mrvn> ocamlc does bytecode, ocamlopt binary
<dross> mrvn: except better.
<dross> ohh.
<dross> well.. from what I can see.. an OSS alternative to java would definitely be better
<dross> there wouldn't be control over it like per say Sun
<mrvn> The problem is that you need all the extra classes java has to compete.
<dross> what does ocaml lack which java has?
<mrvn> tons
<Riastradh> Libraries.
* dross was expecting a defined answer :)
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<dross> Libraries like?
<dross> looks like someone started a mod_ocaml, then just left it. Cute.
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<dross> has anyone done serious coding with ocaml for commercial aplicatoins?
<dross> *applications
<mrvn> mldonkey
<dross> mrvn: I mean commercial applications :)
<mrvn> dan2 is doing some voip stuff with it it seems.
<dross> mrvn: Just curious about ocaml
<dross> mrvn: I seriously dno't see why java exists higher than ocaml.
<dan2> dross: I have
<dross> dan2: I have seen all over the net about its speed. How is it for you?
<dross> dan2: compared to.. C++, or a interpreted language like Perl or Ruby.
<mrvn> dross: because java is big a flashy and insecure while ocaml is nice, small and save.
<mrvn> s/ a/,/
<dan2> dross: I wouldn't trust my beefy dialer application for asterisk to anything but ocaml at this point
<dross> I'm looking for a powerful language for numerical processing without going to *cough* FORTRAN
<dan2> mrvn: apparently someone made a binding for libevent for ocaml
<mrvn> dross: c
<dan2> mrvn: its absolutely sweet
<Riastradh> Java is a strongly hyped language. That is why it won.
<dross> mrvn: I like coding security and OO :)
<dross> Riastradh: well I know this.
<mrvn> dross: security contradicts speed
<dross> Riastradh: Java is the next pascal. Its already showing it is the next pascal.
<mrvn> dross: and OO slows you down a lot of the time too
<dross> mrvn: well, I mean knowing where problems are.
<dross> mrvn: OO has pros and cons
<dan2> mrvn: depends, if you want to be able to make multiple swapable layers of code, OO is grat
<dan2> freat
<dross> mrvn: the pros outweigh the cons IMO.
<dan2> great
<mrvn> OO can help you in the design and abstraction but in ocaml it will always be slower.
<dross> especially when trying to remember.. 30 thousand functions :)
<mrvn> dan2: nice for you
<dross> dan2: I'm also looking into using ocaml for web generation
<dan2> mrvn: binding to libevent, the only problem is that the guy who made the binding didn't seem to port libevent's data ptr layer
<dan2> dross: thats beyond me
<dross> dan2: the byte compiling caught my eye at first, with the ability to compile native code.
<dross> dan2: having both options is important to any language, which almost all don't have.
<dan2> ocaml bytecompiled code seems fast enough in my cases
<mrvn> dross: makes little difference.
<dross> mrvn: it makes all the difference
<dan2> dross: only for portability
<mrvn> dross: bytecode is just native compilation for a simulated cpu.
<dross> mrvn: its important when you want to write code, and not have to worry about not working on other OS
<dan2> dross: ocaml isn't basic, its bytecode isn't slow
<mrvn> dross: bytecode doesn't always work on other OSes.
<dross> mrvn: sometimes portability isn't an issue, but when it is, I don't want to screw around using another language.
<mrvn> dross: The protability issues are absolutely the same for simulating the bytecode engine or for native code.
<dross> mrvn: depends what methods you use. From what the document says, it needs the same version of the compiler.
<dan2> mrvn: btw, tested out epoll, it absolutely kickass
<mrvn> dan2: told you so.
<dross> dan2: you are about 23?
<dan2> mrvn: i used it with my c++ socket library and just passed my socket instance along with epoll user data ptr
<dan2> dross: 15
<dross> dan2: hehe.
<mrvn> dross: The advantage of bytecode is that you can use another compiler to optimize the engine to the target CPU while for native code the compiler has to be good.
<dross> dan2: your slang is out off date.
<dan2> dross: you on west coast?
<dross> dan2: no. I'm in TN. none of my CA friends use the specific terminology you were using.
<dan2> dross: slang is area specific
<dross> I was born in CA. I moved to this rathole filled with hillbillies :)
<dan2> dross: was gonna say
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<dross> dan2: you would hate it here.
<dan2> dross: my favorite place to go is norcal
<dross> this state is so technology behine it would made you go crazy.
<dross> *behind
<dan2> dross: can't be worse than pennsylvania
<dan2> dross: pennsylvania they still type the letters on a typewriter
<dan2> dross: and the phone numbers actually call a person, not a IVR system
<dross> dan2: what about network sockets and ocaml?
<dross> dan2: builtin, or do I need an external library?
<dan2> dross: fun fun
<dan2> dross: builtin
* dross must have missed the reference
<dan2> dross: if you've used C sockets, they are practically the same
<dross> hmm
<dross> okay.
<dross> oh, I didn't look there. I was looking for 'Sockets' :)
<dross> dan2: does it work on windows?
<dross> dan2: I'm on BSD, but I'm curious for portability reasons
<dross> dan2: ocaml is very interesting.
<dan2> dross: probably
<dan2> dross: supposedly theres a native port of Unix for windows, sockets are easy to port because winsock emulates bsd api for sockets
<dross> dan2: does that mean emulationm layer, or do you mean the Unix module works on windows straight from ocaml?
<dan2> dross: Unix module has to be written with C bindings for known reasons
<dan2> dross: win32unix module should have socket support
<dan2> dross: though if you want complete compatibility, use cygwin instead of native
<dan2> dross: native doesn't implement a lot of useful featuers
* dross wonders
<dross> dan2: oh, okay I see.
<dross> dan2: so they are all implemented except the unix oriented functions
<dan2> dross: yes, but I still reccomend using cygwin vs. native win32 unix
<dan2> dross: otherwise no nonblocking sockets ;(
<dross> nonblocking doesnt work on any windows?
<dan2> no, just not with nativewin32 api
<dross> I think even ruby implemented nonblocking on windows.
<dan2> no, just not nonblocking sockets
<dan2> nonblocking files works
<dan2> anyway
<dan2> bed
<dan2> gnite
<dross> dan2: me as well. Good night
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<CapNemo> hello :)
<CapNemo> is there a way to define an int superior to 0 ??
<Smerdyakov> What..?
<CapNemo> i just want to define a type of int which assert that the values will be superior to zero .. so -10 will not be part of this type
<Smerdyakov> We would say "greater than zero" in idiomatic English.
<Riastradh> Or just 'positive.'
<Smerdyakov> I don't think there's anything like that included with the distribution.
<CapNemo> Smerdyakov, even with my bad english you have understood ;)
<mrvn> CapNemo: not if you want it to behave like normal ints, not if you want + - * / to still work.
<CapNemo> ah yes good point
<mrvn> Otherwise define a module Positive with functions make, add, sub, mul, div, ... and maybe "+,", "-,", "*,", ....
<mrvn> Too bad ocaml doesn't have an UInt32.t
<CapNemo> ;)
<Smerdyakov> SML does.
<CapNemo> SML ?
<CapNemo> what is it?
<Smerdyakov> A programming language
<Smerdyakov> AKA Standard ML
<CapNemo> oh oki
<CapNemo> btw Smerdyakov do you know a way to convert an int to string ?
<Smerdyakov> I suggest you read the Pervasives manual.
<Smerdyakov> (manual page, I mean)
<CapNemo> i have read already a whole book about ocaml :) but i have a little memory hole
<CapNemo> to read a book is a thing .. to apply another
<CapNemo> ahh string_of_int
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<chip> That tutorial link is dead
mfurr changed the topic of #ocaml to: OCaml 3.08.2 available! | Archive of Caml Weekly News: http://sardes.inrialpes.fr/~aschmitt/cwn/ | A free book: http://cristal.inria.fr/~remy/cours/appsem/ | Mailing List: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/wilma/caml-list/ | Cookbook: http://pleac.sourceforge.net/
<mfurr> :)
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<dross> hmmm
<kinners> hmmm?
<dross> kinners: I'm thinking of writing an extention for WideStudio to ocaml if I like ocaml
<karryall> WideStudio ?
<dross> kinners: WideStudio is a C++ toolkit which is really portable(more than gtk, or wxwidgets)
<dross> widestudio.org
<dross> click english if you don't read Japanese
<dross> has bindings for C/C++,Perl,Python, and Ruby supposed by the creators
<dross> no third party module linkings. It has its own dnd designer.
<dross> how active are ocaml developers, and the users with third party libraries
<dross> $$.concat('?')
<karryall> hmm, as for third party libraries, people just write bindings when they need them
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<karryall> I mean, if you're waiting for somebody to write your widestudio bindings, you'll probably wait a long time :)
<karryall> that's a huge task
<karryall> there are still no KDE/Qt bindings, even though qt is much more popular than widestudio
<dross> widestudio is MIT licesned
<dross> I thought about doing it myself
<dross> I use it for C++ and Ruby.
<dross> and since it works on more platforms then tk itself :) It would be valuable to me.
<dross> ocaml is neat. How many besides students and professors use ocaml?
<dross> and why?
<karryall> http://wiki.cocan.org/ lists some companies using ocaml
<dross> how is numerical computation in ocaml compared to C++?
<kinners> the Lindows crowd uses it and MS does too (for code verification purposes afaik)
<karryall> slower, but not as bad as some other "academic" languages
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<dross> karryall: oh so the rigged shootout is wrong? ;)
<dross> maybe I'll just write a test :)
<kinners> ocaml produces good basic code, but not highly optimised code
<dross> a good language is a language which can produce not only bytecode, but native code as well :)
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<dross> kinners: Ocaml seems to be overexagerrated, or iit actually beats the hell out of it. http://cubbi.org/serious/fibonacci/bench.html
<kuribas> it's a pity Ocaml doesn't do extensive optimizations
<karryall> fibonacci isn't really numerical computation
<Riastradh> MLton & Stalin are much better higher-order language compilers than OCaml's.
<kuribas> Stalin is a very bad name for looking up in Google :)
<Riastradh> ftp://ftp.ecn.purdue.edu/qobi/stalin-0.10alpha2.tgz
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<kinners> dross: that just tests recursion (and possibly boxing in the ocaml example), g++ beats out ocaml on my machine (AMD 1.4Ghz)
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<dross> kinners: could be different on intel and amd then.
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