<lmbdwar>
also I seem to notice a difference between omega and omega-regular
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<monochrom>
omega simply refers to infinite strings.
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<dross>
does berkeley use ocaml?
<mattam>
sometimes
<mbh>
for undergrad? no
<mbh>
they teach with scheme in the lower-div classes
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<Smerdyakov>
dross, you ought to be more specific!
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<monochrom>
berkeley is a large place
<monochrom>
I am sure most history students at berkeley will say "no, we use windows not haskell"
<dross>
berkeley is overrated
<monochrom>
err I mean "windows not ocaml".
<dross>
the only reason they get much attention because its an american school which overcharges the students
<Smerdyakov>
Ha.
<Smerdyakov>
Berkeley dominates in grad school and research.
<Smerdyakov>
In the last National Research Council survey, only one PhD program wasn't ranked in the top 10 in the nation.
<Smerdyakov>
...and Berkeley, being a state school, is quite cheap (by American elite university standards) if you are a California resident,.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: and how many people get a job out of those who graduate? its pretty much the same unless they get into a research project for thier major
<Smerdyakov>
What? Do you even know what graduate school is?
<dross>
Harvard is better. they fgive free school now to people who get in who have income under 40k ;)
<dross>
Smerdyakov: yes.
<Smerdyakov>
The school you get a PhD from makes a HUGE difference.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: not really
<Smerdyakov>
Almost NO ONE with a PhD in CS from anywhere but the top 10 schools can get a job.
<Smerdyakov>
Almost everyone from Berkeley does.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: not really.
<Smerdyakov>
Yes, really, if we mean jobs meant for PhD's, where they haven't just wasted their time getting the degree.
<dross>
I know several peopel who graduate from places like Kerkeley, MIT, etc who have a hard time finding a place to work.
<dross>
*people
<dross>
*berkeley
<Smerdyakov>
Yeah, and then look at PhD graduates in CS from programs not rated in the top ~5 who can get PhD-type jobs.
<Smerdyakov>
It's almost NONE.
<dross>
one was even a side story in the newspaper
<dross>
she was from Tennessee
<dross>
Smerdyakov: and the PHd type hjjobs would be? :P
<Smerdyakov>
Professor or research scientist
<Smerdyakov>
Maybe CTO at a company
<dan2>
Smerdyakov: CTOs are more about infield experience
<Smerdyakov>
dan2, hey, I gave it a "maybe."
<dross>
heheheh
<mbh>
dross: please stop with this erroneous logic
<dan2>
the major places they hire PhD CS guys are the NSA, Microsoft, Sun, Ibm ...
<dross>
mbh: its not errornous at all, its an observation
<Smerdyakov>
There's potential to be a CTO and not have wasted 5 years getting a PhD, because you're actually directing research-like activities.
<dan2>
Smerdyakov: my boss is a CTO and he didn't graduate high school
<dan2>
Smerdyakov: its a nice size company
<dross>
dan2: very few CS people at governmentjobs however :) most are EEs
<Smerdyakov>
dan2, obviously it depends strongly on the company.
<dan2>
dross: well... what looks good is Mathematics major and minor in CS
<dan2>
dross: or a double major
<dross>
dan2: math is power! ;)
<dross>
dan2: I couldn't imagine majoring in CS
<dan2>
dross: neither could I
<Smerdyakov>
dross, so now you're caught up on what "PhD type jobs" are. Do you still stand by what you said?
<dross>
dan2: the people(professors) are too childish
<Smerdyakov>
dross, dan2, you must only be experienced with non-prestigious CS departments.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: pretty much, yes.
<dan2>
heh
<dan2>
Smerdyakov: I'm still in high school, and I'm getting paid good money as a developer
<dross>
actually I know more peopel majoring in CS for gaming.. and actuallywriting thier thesis on graphical algorithms
<dross>
what loosers. heh.
<Smerdyakov>
dan2, then that would explain why you have trouble understanding what CS is. :-)
<dan2>
Smerdyakov: hey, 35/hr is decent money
<Smerdyakov>
dan2, I don't see the relevance.
<dross>
these few kids were applying thier algos to this helicopter game.
<dan2>
dross: I'd be more interested if someone wrote a thesis on creating an AI to tetrinet game
<dross>
dan2: hehe
<dan2>
dross: that game kicks ass
<dan2>
dross: from what I know, my boss qualified for the Nintendo Championship in Tetris
<Smerdyakov>
dross, OK, you're not getting out of this one! What's your sample size of PhD graduates from top 5 schools vs. others?
<dross>
Smerdyakov: does it matter if they are in CS or not?
<dan2>
Smerdyakov: are you sure colleges teach people how to program anymore?
<Smerdyakov>
dross, probably not. Sticking to math/science/engineering would be helpful, though, since there are probably large differences outside that.
<dross>
dan2: heh. They try to
<Smerdyakov>
dan2, they never have. What's your point?
<dan2>
dross: all they do is teach about programming
<dross>
dan2: be warned they are using java to teach, unless you find a good college which uses a good langauge
<dan2>
Smerdyakov: the lack of a useful skillset coming from a college cs course
<Smerdyakov>
dross, hey, no getting distracted! Let's see your talent.
<dan2>
dross: I already no
<dan2>
know
<Smerdyakov>
dan2, that's because CS is not about programming....
<dross>
Smerdyakov: meh.. whats wrong with being a business major?
<Smerdyakov>
dross, you can't get a PhD in business, or it's at least a different enough thing that we can't compare it.
<dross>
...
<dan2>
Smerdyakov: how useful is CS if they can't teach you to do at least one task in the field?
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<Smerdyakov>
dan2, programming is not the field of CS.
<Smerdyakov>
dan2, CS is an area of math.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: I really couldn't call most PHds smart. Since most of the papers they write are 99.9% trash
<Smerdyakov>
dross, please give me your sample size statistics. Remember, we are talking about rates of getting jobs with research as the majority responsibility.
<mbh>
dross: have you ever even read a technical paper?
<mbh>
do you have any idea how selective grad school is?
<dross>
35% of PHd in math, cs, ee get low jobs
<dross>
mbh: its easy when you pay people off.
<Smerdyakov>
dross, I don't know what you mean by "low," but I'm talking about "research oriented" as the important criterion.
<dross>
mbh: and no, its not wrong, its business
<Smerdyakov>
dross, which means taking a teaching-only job is not included.
<dross>
35% get part-time teaching posts, high school positions, or non-academic jobs
<Smerdyakov>
dross, now, how many people with PhD's in technical fields do you know?
<dross>
the rest get decent to grat jobs
<dross>
Smerdyakov: many
<Smerdyakov>
I mean to exclude even FULL-TIME teaching posts.
<mbh>
these guys are trolling
<dross>
most of my friends are EE though, and a couple CS, and the couple others are Math
<Smerdyakov>
So if 50% get jobs asf ull-time teachers with great benefits, then they are still considered "failures" for the purposes of this discussion!
<dross>
Smerdyakov: what?
<dross>
Smerdyakov: how are they failures?
<Smerdyakov>
Because they spent ~5 years training to be researchers, and now they aren't doing any appreciable amount of research.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: you dare insult Feynman
<Smerdyakov>
Feynman's job responsibilities were mostly research.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: Feynman is a genious, he tought though. He wasn;t a looser at all
<Smerdyakov>
Like most professors at top schools.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: yes and theres others like Feynmen
<Smerdyakov>
Right.... do you understand what I'm saying?
<Smerdyakov>
The "success" criterion is: The job is MAJORITY research.
<Smerdyakov>
This includes all standard kinds of faculty positions.
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<Smerdyakov>
It doesn't include people with titles (in America) like "lecturer," "instructor," etc..
<Smerdyakov>
Or the title "professor" at a community or regional college
<dross>
Smerdyakov: oh, I see.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: you mean the loosers who just teach to teach without giving a damn
<Smerdyakov>
I mean the people who exercise skills other than those they spent 5+ years developing in PhD programs.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: I don't have any friends like that, who would want friends like that?
<Smerdyakov>
dross, OK, can you please start giving some data points on particular people? Field, university to grant the PhD, current job?
<dross>
Smerdyakov: right, I know the people who myou mean to exclude from being successful
<dross>
Smerdyakov: they don't get paid much anyway. Yes, my friend who spent many many years in math could teach, but he moved to the US and didn't want to teach a bunch of ignorant americans :)
<dross>
he taught at this serbian university, sounded like hell though.
<Smerdyakov>
Are you answering my question now...?
<dross>
and my friend is a ee phd.. he is okay. He earns money but I think he is afriad f something. He tries to apply for research positions
<Smerdyakov>
Where did he get his PhD?
<dross>
actually he is into intelligent energy systems.
<dross>
mmm university of Tennessee
<Smerdyakov>
OK, we have one from a non-top-10 school who can't get a majority-research job.
<dross>
he recently recieved a break and is working on this library in C++ for power cost calculation for CMU
<Smerdyakov>
Seems to support my assertion so far. :)
<dross>
Smerdyakov: UTK is in the list of good school
<dross>
.concat "s"
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<Smerdyakov>
Funny. PhDs.org says it is #60 in the USA for faculty quality.
<Smerdyakov>
And my criterion was top-10.
<dross>
heh
<Smerdyakov>
Funny how? You think UTK deserves to be "top-10 for EE" by some better criteria?
<dross>
well.. not really, his sister is actually smarter than he is. She went to a russian univ though.
<dross>
his sister is in EEtoo :)
<dross>
she wrote a huge book.
<Smerdyakov>
I don't know about Russian universities, so I can't comment there.
<Smerdyakov>
But so far we have one data item (on the subject of American-granted PhDs) which fits my hypothesis.
<Smerdyakov>
Do you have any more data points?
<dross>
and its actually not filled with loads of crap
<dross>
welol not really, but I think univs and success rates depend on the geographical location
<Smerdyakov>
In the USA, it's as simple as the top-10 programs nationally.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: You nkow I've argued with people before wether people against places of degree would get a job over the other or not. I still think no.
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<Smerdyakov>
dross, for PhDs and majority-research jobs, it absolutely does. You've admitted you have no reason to think otherwise.
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<Smerdyakov>
It's kind of comical for you to argue against me when I'm involved in this system, you aren't, and your data support my hypothesis.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: still confuses me how peopel with no degree are able to get high mighty jobs which earn more than phds ;)
<dross>
like the kids who work on Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis graphics
<Smerdyakov>
Why are you using money as the main indicator here?
<dross>
theres a 19, 17, 21, and 29. then the others who they hire.
<Smerdyakov>
People get PhDs because they want to do RESEARCH.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: because its important
<dross>
they write thier own algorithms
<dross>
Smerdyakov: they do research.
<Smerdyakov>
Most of what they do is not research.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: hah
<Smerdyakov>
I'm talking about majority research.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: wanna bet?
<Smerdyakov>
Yes.
<dross>
every try writing good algorithms for a graphics program?
<dross>
I know for one, 3dsMAX has an excellent built in language
<Smerdyakov>
I'll bet that doesn't take up 51% or more of their time.
<Smerdyakov>
And I bet they keep their results secret, which is another disqualifier as far as I'm concerned.
<dross>
have you tried creating 3d objects? its time consuming
<Smerdyakov>
So is cleaning toilets....
<dross>
Smerdyakov: excuse me? no they don't
<dross>
I've watched progress of someone who makes even games for a living making oddles of money, its timeconsuming
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<dross>
though I think hes an idiot for not applying his knowledge to something not throw away work :)
<Smerdyakov>
In what format do these people publicize their research results?
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<dross>
Smerdyakov: in closed source format :)
<Smerdyakov>
OK, then it's not "scientific research," which is what I meant.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: my friend who is writing code for CMU writes closed source work as well
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<Smerdyakov>
Whether this doesn't fit with your definition or not, I'm considering only work that is explained in detail through peer-reviewed publication processes.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: ...
<dross>
Smerdyakov: closed source work matters too
<dross>
Smerdyakov: the power systems are a large area
<dross>
the equations are publicissed enough
<Smerdyakov>
There are many kinds of work that matter.
<Smerdyakov>
There's "research" and there's "development."
<Smerdyakov>
"Research" provides fundamental results of interest to a large community.
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<vodka-goo>
have anyone ever heard about a decent vim indent mode for ocaml ?
<vodka-goo>
also, troll: xavier leroy said he's done with ocaml, will ocaml die ?... :D
<Smerdyakov>
It's already dead, as far as I'm concerned.
<Smerdyakov>
No standard language. One implementation, with little interest in optimization.
<vodka-goo>
You're right. However, ocaml is already quite fast without optims.
<Smerdyakov>
And MLton is faster. :)
<vodka-goo>
ok...
<vodka-goo>
I should eventually try it, second time I hear about that.
<mbh>
Smerdyakov: free pizza in wozniak lounge
<vodka-goo>
MLton follows SML spec ?
<Smerdyakov>
mbh, thanks, but I'm at home now, and I don't like pizza if it has animal products in it. :)
<Smerdyakov>
vodka-goo, yes
<Smerdyakov>
vodka-goo, best optimizing compiler in Debian now for a non-C language (this even includes C++).
<vodka-goo>
I didn't think SML included objects...
<Smerdyakov>
It doesn't.
<vodka-goo>
I think I like it... but for a bad reason ;) There are 'end' keywords for let
<vodka-goo>
is there endif for if ?
<Smerdyakov>
No
<vodka-goo>
shit
<monochrom>
you can use begin ... end
<vodka-goo>
I'm currently getting mad trying to write ocaml indentation for vim
<monochrom>
if h then begin end else begin end
<vodka-goo>
and this kind of details really bother me ;)
<Smerdyakov>
You probably know that functional language hackers as a whole strongly prefer emacs.
<monochrom>
in fact you can also do: if begin h end then begin end else begin end
<Smerdyakov>
You wouldn't need to write your own mode if you used emacs.
<monochrom>
begin ... end = ( ... )
<vodka-goo>
I used emacs and tuareg for a while, but I'm willing to move to vim
<vodka-goo>
Actually, I moved to vim, I won't go back !
<vodka-goo>
I don't think elisp is a good reason for "functional language hackers" to prefer emacs
<Smerdyakov>
CPU usage scores for 56 language implementations on Linux.... first is Intel's C compiler, then gcc, then MLton.
<Smerdyakov>
vodka-goo, I didn't say that's the reason. I'm sure part of the reason is that somehow this came to be the case, and so it's convenient to stick with what the FP community has always done.
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<vodka-goo>
is mlton completely open-source ?
<vodka-goo>
I'm using gentoo and saw it needs a pkg named mlton-bin... strange
<Excedrin>
there's no reason for that, it's GPL
<monochrom>
Building MLton takes a long time. You see, it applies all its global analyses on itself.
<Smerdyakov>
I'm not sure if it is now, but it had some license-encumbered code a few months ago. Resolving this was an ongoing issue.
<vodka-goo>
monochrom: ok
<vodka-goo>
fun
<Smerdyakov>
BTW, there is #sml, too. ;-)
<vodka-goo>
I just tried #mlton ;)
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<naudix>
hello
<Smerdyakov>
naudix, I talked to you before.
<naudix>
Smerdyakov: Yes
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<Smerdyakov>
naudix, I am talking to you again.
<naudix>
Smerdyakov: Yes
naudix is now known as DesaixVeygoux
DesaixVeygoux is now known as DesaixDeBurgh
<DesaixDeBurgh>
Smerdyakov: Is there something you want ?
<Smerdyakov>
Hello, DesaixDeBurgh. Have you ever met naudix?
<DesaixDeBurgh>
haha
<vodka-goo>
mmmm, weird
<Smerdyakov>
DesaixDeBurgh is a Presbyterian priest.
<DesaixDeBurgh>
No I'm not.
<DesaixDeBurgh>
That just happens to be my denomination.
<DesaixDeBurgh>
I'm not a priest.
<Smerdyakov>
And he gets upset if you tell him that rewriting UNIX is a bad idea.
<vodka-goo>
héhé, I've got a friend like that
<Smerdyakov>
Instead of arguing his position like a sane human being.
<gim>
maybe mlton-bin is used for bootstrap like ghc-bin for haskell ?
<Smerdyakov>
gim, MLton is usually compiled with a binary bootstrap version, yes.
<vodka-goo>
here he is --> gim :)
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<vodka-goo>
gim: there was no bootstrap, it's already finished
<vodka-goo>
dbaelde@igloo ocaml-3.08.2 $ mlton
<vodka-goo>
MLton 20040227 (built Fri Feb 27 21:23:55 2004 on redhat71)
<vodka-goo>
yuk!
<vodka-goo>
outdated and precompiled...
<vodka-goo>
looks like they need a maintainer
<Smerdyakov>
Just like gcc had to be originally....
<Smerdyakov>
Besides, if you want to use non-mainstream programming languages, you shouldn't be using Gentoo.
<vodka-goo>
we have a good ocaml maintainer
<Smerdyakov>
Debian dwarfs everything else for package count, so if a project is willing to maintain packages for one distro, it will be Debian.
<vodka-goo>
:)
* vodka-goo
likes gentoo, but won't troll about that...
<DesaixDeBurgh>
objective Caml version 3.06
<DesaixDeBurgh>
NetBSD blackhole 2.0.1 NetBSD 2.0.1 (zev) #8: Thu Jan 27 01:43:53 EST 2005 naudix@blackhole:/usr/src/sys/arch/i386/compile/zev i386
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<gim>
mine is 3.09+dev13 (2005-01-04), hum maybe i'm no more up to date...
<gim>
new warnings are nice :)
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<davidmccabe>
hi folks.
<davidmccabe>
what comparison do I want to use in a method that searches a list for an instance of self?
<davidmccabe>
er, for self, the very same instance.
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<pango>
davidmccabe: physical, probably (==)
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<mflux>
let out = Printf.fprintf stdout in out "hello world %s" "bar" doesn't work, how come?
<karryall>
flush stdout
<karryall>
or use "hello world %s%!"
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<karryall>
and you want to write it as
<mflux>
no, it doesn't compile
<karryall>
le out fmt = Printf.fprintf stdout fmt
<mflux>
well that did come to my mind but I wonder why
<mflux>
is this a special case of currying not working?
<karryall>
no, it's about the string literal
<karryall>
in your first version the "hell world %s" is of type string
<karryall>
when it is an argument of the printf it's of type format
<mflux>
hmh, the type of 'out' looks the same, with or without the fmt-argument
<mflux>
but that versino does compile
<mflux>
thanks
<karryall>
no it's not the same
<karryall>
the first one has value restriction
<mflux>
val out : ('a, out_channel, unit) format -> 'a = <fun> vs val out2 : ('_a, out_channel, unit) format -> '_a = <fun>?
<karryall>
yeah, notice the _ in '_a
<mflux>
oh yes. what does it mean?-)
<mflux>
I imagined it's only part of a unique label