mfurr changed the topic of #ocaml to: OCaml 3.08.2 available! | Archive of Caml Weekly News: http://sardes.inrialpes.fr/~aschmitt/cwn/ | A free book: http://cristal.inria.fr/~remy/cours/appsem/ | Mailing List: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/wilma/caml-list/ | Cookbook: http://pleac.sourceforge.net/
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<dross> hmm
<dross> so, does the ocaml community need any special website for anything?
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<Smerdyakov> What does that mean?
<dross> it means does the ocaml community need any type of site to help expedite the ocaml langauge
<dross> I've plenty of servers to take on any powerful needed webapps or net app services for ocaml people.
<letaris> a kind gesture, but we like the current websites just fine
<letaris> write some cool libraries
<letaris> or applications
<letaris> or get involved with godi, package other peoples cool libraries
<letaris> or test on different platforms and debug
<dross> godi?
<letaris> godi is like CPAN for Ocaml
<dross> *sigh*
<letaris> godi.ocaml-programming.de
<dross> I'm tired of wasting my time on those.
<letaris> hahaha, well ok
<letaris> godi saves me a lot of time
<dross> Unless they are going to focus on interfacing with the package manager systems in the OS
<dross> like CPAN-BSD
<dross> its part od CPAN
<dross> registers packages with the OS
<dross> *of
<letaris> that would be a geat add on to godi
<letaris> the problem it it supports so many OS's
<letaris> but I'm sure Gerd would listen to a proposal, or look at a patch
<dross> it would be OS specific
<dross> it would be a good feature however
<dross> especially on *BSDs
<dross> they all use a different package system
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<letaris> yeah, you could start with the BSD's and perhaps debian
<letaris> actually, unifying our packaging efforts with debian would probably be a good thing
<dross> I don't use any other OS except BSD
<letaris> hehehe
<letaris> which BSD if I might ask?
<dross> DragonFlyBSD, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD
<letaris> ooooh, HOW is dragonfly
<dross> I've not touched DarwinBSD because I've no ppc
<letaris> I've read a lot about it
<letaris> I'm a fan of darwin, I have a powerbook right next to me
<dross> I want to get a x86 notebook before I get a ppc
<dross> dragonflybsd is good.
<letaris> yes, notebooks are the best
<letaris> last year I transitioned completely to notebooks for my personal systems
<letaris> will not look back
<letaris> well, as far a Ocaml goes
<dross> I want to replace my desktop system with laptops
<dross> desktops are a utter waste
<letaris> do you have a particular itch to scratch?
<letaris> yes, they are a waste of space, and they're not portable
<dross> itch to what?
<dross> I'm not a gamer, I'm a scientific gneious ;)
<letaris> is there something you see missing that you need :-)
<dross> I like math and physics
<dross> letaris: porting around data
<Smerdyakov> Not an English genius, I guess.
<dross> Smerdyakov: nope. I'm not one who likes the English language
<letaris> hm, like, to databases...
<letaris> have you looked at the hump, and or the link database?
<dross> Smerdyakov: letwell.. I really don't have any use for a tower, and dont always use 2 net cards, or 2 burners
<letaris> if you need a library, those are the two places to go before trying google
* dross will definitely integrate a custom GPS system to the laptop he gets :)
<dross> is there a pitfalls and fallicies page for Ocaml?
<letaris> hm, now thats an interesting one
<dross> I read very much data, I expect everything :)
<dross> I wish there was a ocaml plugins for FF/MOZ, and IE :)
<letaris> hah
<letaris> funny that you mention that
<dross> it would seriously take over java 
<dross> letaris: I've been mentioning it in the past for the last 3 weeks of ocaml :)
<letaris> inria actually wrote a web browser in Ocaml, which could handle byte compiled plugins
<dross> letaris: I thought that was just MMM
<letaris> I don't see that being useful though
<dross> letaris: I mean an actual plugin for the popular browsers
<dross> letaris: oh trust me, it will come useful
<letaris> I see Ocaml's best suited roll as a language for implementing network daemons and other highly reliable infrastructure
<dross> so why is the hump broken?
<dross> it worked 2 weeks ago
<letaris> 0.o
<dross> the osearch program is broke
<Smerdyakov> letaris, do you mean that is the best way to demonstrate its quality, or that it is not one of the best choices for most domains?
<dross> The requested URL /cgi-bin/osearch was not found on this server. ;)
<letaris> Smerdyakov, at the state we're in now, it is the most perfect fit for several reasons
<Smerdyakov> letaris, so are you saying it's not a good fit for most domains?
<letaris> 1. no one has to care what language your ldap server is writtent in as long as it speaks ldap
<dross> does anyone here own a business?
<dross> what are people looking for when searching for someone to write software?
<dross> erm
<letaris> 2. network daemons benifit from the type safety and security features of Ocaml
<Smerdyakov> dross, I think you need to be more specific.
<dross> does anyone here own a software company, or ever owned a business which has looked for a software company?
<dross> Smerdyakov: well, I'm thinking to start my own software company.
<Smerdyakov> dross, what's your angle?
<letaris> 3. You can swap out implementations of such products without having to even notify your user base
<dross> Smerdyakov: network applications and client applications
<Smerdyakov> letaris, I'm really not interested in hearing more about that.
<letaris> hahahaaha
<Smerdyakov> letaris, I was just curious if you think OCaml is not a general purpose good choice.
<dross> ocaml is.. interestingf
<dross> *interesting
<letaris> Yes, I do think its a good general purpose choice
<dross> *sigh*
<Smerdyakov> OK, then.
<Smerdyakov> And, of course, Standard ML is a better one. :)
<letaris> My group has adopted it for precicesly that
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<Smerdyakov> dross, you are on a different wavelength than most people here are, so you need to be willing to expend extra effort on clear communication.
<letaris> dross, there are some very useful libraries for network apps in Ocaml
<dross> Smerdyakov: I speak better than I type :)
<Smerdyakov> OCaml is on the way out, because it's controlled too restrictively by a narrow group.
<letaris> if you really do start a company, I would be available to talk with you
<letaris> Smerdyakov, that...
<letaris> *sigh*
<letaris> is a problem
<dross> hehe
<letaris> then again, you can join the consortium and get the compiler under the BSD license
<dross> so is ocaml gogni to die? ;)
<letaris> I doubt it
<Smerdyakov> letaris, why would I do that when there's SML?
<letaris> the community seems to be gaining strength
* dross grins
<Smerdyakov> I think OCaml should be dead in 20 years.
<dross> I could write articles to orielly
<letaris> Smerdyakov, because the bredth of libraries written in SML is absolutely terriable
<Smerdyakov> letaris, boo hoo. It's soooo hard to use the FFI to make your own!
<letaris> there is literally nothing available
<dross> I believe the popularity is also controlled by the libraries
<letaris> Smerdyakov, I did, in Ocaml
<dross> you must have a user base to have those libraries too
<dross> unless you code them all yourself
<Smerdyakov> I don't care about people who whine with this "libraries!!" bullshit.
<Smerdyakov> You still save time using SML, even counting the time it takes to implement libraries.
<letaris> Smerdyakov, in the real world, libraries are improtant
<letaris> I couldn't sell SML to my boss
<Smerdyakov> letaris, to a certain class of people with a narrow view of the world.
<letaris> but I could sell Ocaml
<Smerdyakov> letaris, too bad that you have a boss, then.
<dross> having a boss is sad
<dross> Smerdyakov: which ML do you believe in again?
<letaris> 0.o
<letaris> working for a living is NOT sad
<Smerdyakov> Lots of people do quite fine without having bosses.
<Smerdyakov> Including academics.
<Smerdyakov> (This man needs some Emergency Anarchist Literature.)
<letaris> zomj
<letaris> :P
<Smerdyakov> ?
<letaris> Standard ML
<letaris> there is a standard for ML, from which Ocaml is derived
<Smerdyakov> SML is going places.
<Smerdyakov> Will have the best open source optimizing compiler ever, within the next decade. I promise. :-)
<letaris> anything is better than java if you ask me
<letaris> but I'll stick with Ocaml for now
<letaris> which is, by the way, ALSO standardized
<letaris> and if you hate INRIA so much
<dross> Smerdyakov: SML of NJ?
<letaris> write your own implementation
<letaris> dross, there are lots of SMLs
<letaris> MLTON is another
<dross> I don't have any problem with INRIA unless they close source ocaml in the future
<Smerdyakov> MLton's the one.
<dross> heh
<letaris> MLton is completely non workable for buisness
<Smerdyakov> OCaml is somewhat closed source already, in the sense that they don't seem to take additions from non-INRIA people, or something like that/
<dross> Smerdyakov: then get in the loop
<Smerdyakov> letaris, they're working on that. Might even be resolved already.
<dross> Smerdyakov: its easy
<Smerdyakov> dross, what?
<letaris> Smerdyakov, that is completely untrue
<dross> Smerdyakov: get to know the INRIA people personally
<Smerdyakov> dross, that only helps for contributions from _me_.
<letaris> I a lowly buisness programmer have submitted patches to the Ocaml tree
<dross> Smerdyakov: INRIA is doing the right thing(tm) trust me on this one
<letaris> and they were accepted faster than just about any other OSS project I've ever worked on (except my own of course)
<Smerdyakov> letaris, well, someone complained about not being able to get some change accepted. I don't know the details.
<dross> Smerdyakov: if you don't think so, get in the Ruby community for a while, it will change your mind
<Smerdyakov> dross, no, look at the SML community!
<dross> Smerdyakov: having change from non-INRIA is a good thing
<letaris> Smerdyakov, if they accepted every change the language would suck!
<Smerdyakov> letaris, already does suck from too many grafted-on "features"....
<dross> Smerdyakov: Ruby has changes from the community. The problem with accepting everyones changes are the simple fact that it breaks implenmentation between versions
<dross> Smerdyakov: INRIA is doing the right thing
<Smerdyakov> I never said "accepting everyone's changes."
<letaris> I am amazed how cleanly they have managed to tie things together
<dross> Smerdyakov: even when accepting a few, they poison implementation standards for the compiler
<letaris> I admit that the syntax is a bit worse for the wear
<Smerdyakov> Yeah, right. Go magic hash function!
<letaris> but it really is pretty good
<letaris> look at the languages currently in use
<letaris> widespread use
<letaris> Ocaml is worlds better than any or them
<Smerdyakov> And SML is counties better than OCaml. :P
<letaris> actually ANY of lisp, scheme, dylan, SML, Ocaml, etc ANY of them
<letaris> would be better than whats out there now
<Smerdyakov> I'm not satisfied until formal high-level specifications are integrated everywhere.
<letaris> I have news for you, the world doesn't care if you're satisfied :P
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<letaris> I really agree with you though
<Smerdyakov> Too bad for "the world."
<letaris> formal specs are very important
<letaris> but we lowly buisness programmers have to take things one step at a time
<letaris> I have to fight to convince ppl to use Ocaml over C++
<Smerdyakov> Why are you a lowly business programmer?
<dross> Smerdyakov: what did you want to talk about? I won't be registering the business until a year or less
<dross> Smerdyakov: I need to get ready _every_ piece of paperworkand advertisnig first :)
<Smerdyakov> dross, when did I indicate that I had something to talk about? (might help me remember what you mean....)
<letaris> Smerdyakov, because I like it :-)
<letaris> in order to make a big difference in the world, sometimes you have to crawl down low and give people a hand
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<dross> Smerdyakov: oops I mean letaris :P
<dross> letaris: what did you want to talk about?
<letaris> ah, nothing in particular
<letaris> but if you're doing network stuff
<letaris> you may end up using some of my libraries
<letaris> or libraries I work on
<letaris> I was offering my general support in that endeavor
<dross> letaris: do you know why ocaml can beat the optimiser in gcc C?
<Smerdyakov> dross, dumb luck. Ask the question for MLton and you can get good answers. ;)
<letaris> not off hand, no
<dross> letaris: do you know why ocaml can beat the optimiser in gcc C?
<dross> oops
<dross> letaris: ocaml beat gcc C by .08ns
<Smerdyakov> dross, averaged over many trials?
<dross> Smerdyakov: yes, I sat there running it in a loop in sh
<Smerdyakov> Still not a significant difference
<dross> on BSD anyway.. it could be BSDs fault for the speed.
<dross> Smerdyakov: any speed is a significant speed
<Riastradh> dross, try it for a significant program.
<Riastradh> Small benchmarks rarely offer useful results.
<letaris> yes, such as, decoding lber http://ocamldap.sourceforge.net/performance/index.html
<dross> ermm.. actually..
<Smerdyakov> letaris, confusing page. I don't know what the numbers mean.
<dross> Riastradh: well.. large apps are difficult to benchmark
<dross> Riastradh: the implementation depends on the programmer who can use bad style in implementation
<dross> dross@dfbsd0:~/fib> time ./fib_c 900
<Riastradh> That is correct, dross. What's more important is a profiling tool, then, not a set of benchmarks.
<dross> 10.634u 0.051s 0:11.10 96.2% 0+26k 0+0io 0pf+0w
<dross> dross@dfbsd0:~/fib> time ./fib_ml 900
<dross> 4.618u 0.026s 0:04.81 96.2% 13+117k 0+0io 2pf+0w
<Smerdyakov> I see. The column headings are hiding at the top of the page.
<dross> Riastradh: looping seems to be better optimised in ocaml
<dross> does ocaml produce asm for gcc to use or C?
<letaris> Smerdyakov, yeah, sorry, I didn't have much time
<letaris> but there may be a paper in it, I'm talking to my advisor
<dross> okay well.. maybe more than .08 seconds
<dross> looping must just be optimised poorly in gcc C optimiser
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<letaris> lo'
<lucca> hail
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<slashvar> Hi there
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<_JusSx_> YEAH
<_JusSx_> OCAML
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<dross> mrvn: hehe
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<dross> hmm
<dross> the ocaml book from ora says its needs ocaml 2.04
<dross> is there an updated version of the book?
<dross> or is this fine for learning ocaml?
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<pango> it's ok to learn the first 90% of the language. Then you can find info elsewhere for the remaining 10%
<dross> hmm
<dross> what would the 10% cover?
<pango> I can only think of labels...
<pango> don't remember what is new in ocaml 3
<Smerdyakov> I think the tutorial in the manual should be fine..
<Smerdyakov> Especially if you learn general functional programming ideas elsewhere first.
<dross> Smerdyakov: I've only used C, Ada, C++, Ruby, Perl, PHP, GWBASIC, QBASIC, CBASIC, and Java ;)
<Smerdyakov> dross, I think this book is good for SML: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rwh/smlbook/
<dross> Smerdyakov: I want to learn ocaml first :)
<Smerdyakov> Sure, but maybe there isn't as good educational material for a closed language like OCaml....
<dross> Smerdyakov: you haven't ever tried ruby, so don't judge a langauge with comittees
<Smerdyakov> What do you mean?
<dross> Smerdyakov: Ruby is very open to chagned by the people, so the syntax changes every 2 weeks from add ons
<dross> Smerdyakov: I don't even want to heart the anti-comitee crap
<Smerdyakov> Ruby and OCaml don't have standards, and they only have single implementations.
<Smerdyakov> In the case of OCaml, the developers of it don't care so much about optimization.
<Smerdyakov> So the user community loses.
<Smerdyakov> For SML, MLton was started independently, and now we have the neato-est optimizing compiler ever! :)
<dross> Smerdyakov: and there aren't really any online libs, docs, or updated info on MLton
<Smerdyakov> Ha!
<Smerdyakov> Ridiculous statement.
<dross> Smerdyakov: you say it has both byte and native, yet theres no documentation specifying
<Smerdyakov> The only problem we've identified so far is lack of information on the bytecode backend.
<dross> Smerdyakov: no, its a observant staement
<Smerdyakov> (Because interest in that is relatively low.)
<Smerdyakov> If you have any other facts to back up your assertion, I'd like to hear them.
<dross> Smerdyakov: well theres one big weakness right there
<Smerdyakov> That's not big...
<dross> the developers are people ignorant and denying what people need
<Smerdyakov> What?!
<dross> even though it doesnt look like it, doesnt mean theres not many people using bytecode
<dross> Smerdyakov: there are plenty interested in byte code
<Smerdyakov> Look, send an e-mail to users list, and I guarantee you someone will create a wiki page on the subject in response.
<dross> Smerdyakov: same with the ocaml community
<Riastradh> dross, I'm curious: what's interesting to you about a byte code MLton back end?
<dross> or any community for that matter.
<dross> Riastradh: portability for a few applications which need to stay closed
<Smerdyakov> Hardly any functional language people care about closed software.
<Riastradh> dross, how is a byte code back end any more portable than a C back end?
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<dross> Riastradh: depending on what the application is, bytecode is portable.
<dross> C sin't portable
<Riastradh> Perhaps you could elaborate a bit on that assertion.
<dross> trying to write a app in C, then making sure it works on 64bit platforms is kinda a pain
<Smerdyakov> MLton sticks to ANSI C, I would expect.
<Smerdyakov> Which makes it portable.
<Smerdyakov> It's just used as a portable assembler; nothing fancy.
<dross> Smerdyakov: I know
<Riastradh> Byte code, which is far more general a term than C, can be just as unportable as C can be.
<dross> I;'ve read the book on virtual machines
<Riastradh> You can make things portable or you can make things not portable. I'm asking about things inherent in C or the notion of byte code.
<dross> Riastradh: I simply don't want to compile targets for each platform
<Riastradh> Virtual machines tend to be written in C, too. (OCaml's is.) What benefit do you get, then, if you compile to some byte code?
<Smerdyakov> dross, you don't have to if you don't stupidly refuse to release the source.
<dross> Riastradh: I wish to write once and give out, not write one and compile 20 times :)
<dross> Smerdyakov: they pay extra for the source :)
<Smerdyakov> Bad business model.
<Smerdyakov> It leads to low quality software.
<dross> Smerdyakov: well then theres many stupid people out there ;)
<Smerdyakov> Joe Hacker knows a way to improve your software, and he can't!
<Smerdyakov> So people get worse software.
<dross> Smerdyakov: Joe hacker doesnt need access to the algorithms
<dross> its IP ;)
<Smerdyakov> I don't believe in such things.
<pango> Riastradh: so, is http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/portability.html incorrect ?
* dross smells MLton users
<Riastradh> pango, incorrect how?
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* dross also smells GPL nazis
<pango> Riastradh: about portability of the bytecode runtime
<Smerdyakov> dross, how about you show that you will even fall through with using any functional language for anything serious?
<Submarine> the bytecode runtime should be portable to any Unixoid system on a 32-bit or 64-bit machine
<Riastradh> dross, take the plural out of that. I don't use MLton (or any ML much) or agree with the GPL.
<Smerdyakov> dross, the last "outsider" who used up so much airtime in the ML community ended up deciding he didn't like ML, after months of long messages and forming an in-person interest group. :P
<Riastradh> pango, no -- why would it be?
<dross> Riastradh: I agree with GPL at certain times, but not all the time like some people do.
<Smerdyakov> dross, so, if you might end up the same way, it would be better to withhold any arguments based on trying to make money by selling ML software.
<dross> Smerdyakov: I can use any langauge I want.
<Smerdyakov> dross, you can, but that doesn't mean that doing so is sensible.
<dross> Smerdyakov: some people are smarter at keeping syntax forever in thier head :)
<Smerdyakov> dross, I don't see the relevance of that.
<pango> Riastradh: you said ocaml vm wasn't written in C too... you were talking about the native runtime, or... ?
<dross> Smerdyakov: means I can use any langauge I wish. And the small language problems don't bother me.
<Riastradh> pango, no, I said that the OCaml VM _is_ written in C.
<pango> <Riastradh> Virtual machines tend to be written in C, too. (OCaml's is.)
<pango> ah, for some reason I read isN'T
<Smerdyakov> dross, ...and?
<dross> pango: hehe.
<pango> damn me
<dross> Smerdyakov: ocaml apps have been decent, the couple gtk apps are decent too
<pango> so many SML advocacy around here, sometimes you wonder
<Smerdyakov> dross, you mean you those you have written?
<pango> are there SML users in #sml too ?
<dross> pango: I could call them a name most introverts use. but I realize they are just being extrovertant
<Riastradh> There's really only one SML advocate here, Smerdyakov. I may seem like one, but I'm really neutral in this whole matter.
<dross> Smerdyakov: not full. I was just dinking around with examples and cut pasting code in a app until I learn ocaml more.
* dross looks... too much green tea :P brb.
<Smerdyakov> dross, so you have no evidence that you will even want to use OCaml eventually....
<dross> Smerdyakov: not for a full app, no.
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<Snark> slt
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<dross> `the ORA book isn't 100% clear
<dross> I'm glad reading those tutorials helped before I read the book.
<dross> oh well :)
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<dross> are there any ML group listings for the US?
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<_JusSx_> lol
<Nioate> yeah
<dross> hi there
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<lmbdwar> evening
<lmbdwar> whats an omega-regular language ?
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<monochrom> A language of infinite strings accepted by a certain Buchi automaton.
<monochrom> Hmm you sound deja vu
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<lmbdwar> monochrom, :>
<lmbdwar> monochrom, what kind of 'certain'
<monochrom> the existential kind
<monochrom> L is omega-regular iff forsome Buchi automaton B. B accepts L.