<letaris>
if you need a library, those are the two places to go before trying google
* dross
will definitely integrate a custom GPS system to the laptop he gets :)
<dross>
is there a pitfalls and fallicies page for Ocaml?
<letaris>
hm, now thats an interesting one
<dross>
I read very much data, I expect everything :)
<dross>
I wish there was a ocaml plugins for FF/MOZ, and IE :)
<letaris>
hah
<letaris>
funny that you mention that
<dross>
it would seriously take over java
<dross>
letaris: I've been mentioning it in the past for the last 3 weeks of ocaml :)
<letaris>
inria actually wrote a web browser in Ocaml, which could handle byte compiled plugins
<dross>
letaris: I thought that was just MMM
<letaris>
I don't see that being useful though
<dross>
letaris: I mean an actual plugin for the popular browsers
<dross>
letaris: oh trust me, it will come useful
<letaris>
I see Ocaml's best suited roll as a language for implementing network daemons and other highly reliable infrastructure
<dross>
so why is the hump broken?
<dross>
it worked 2 weeks ago
<letaris>
0.o
<dross>
the osearch program is broke
<Smerdyakov>
letaris, do you mean that is the best way to demonstrate its quality, or that it is not one of the best choices for most domains?
<dross>
The requested URL /cgi-bin/osearch was not found on this server. ;)
<letaris>
Smerdyakov, at the state we're in now, it is the most perfect fit for several reasons
<Smerdyakov>
letaris, so are you saying it's not a good fit for most domains?
<letaris>
1. no one has to care what language your ldap server is writtent in as long as it speaks ldap
<dross>
does anyone here own a business?
<dross>
what are people looking for when searching for someone to write software?
<dross>
erm
<letaris>
2. network daemons benifit from the type safety and security features of Ocaml
<Smerdyakov>
dross, I think you need to be more specific.
<dross>
does anyone here own a software company, or ever owned a business which has looked for a software company?
<dross>
Smerdyakov: well, I'm thinking to start my own software company.
<Smerdyakov>
dross, what's your angle?
<letaris>
3. You can swap out implementations of such products without having to even notify your user base
<dross>
Smerdyakov: network applications and client applications
<Smerdyakov>
letaris, I'm really not interested in hearing more about that.
<letaris>
hahahaaha
<Smerdyakov>
letaris, I was just curious if you think OCaml is not a general purpose good choice.
<dross>
ocaml is.. interestingf
<dross>
*interesting
<letaris>
Yes, I do think its a good general purpose choice
<dross>
*sigh*
<Smerdyakov>
OK, then.
<Smerdyakov>
And, of course, Standard ML is a better one. :)
<letaris>
My group has adopted it for precicesly that
smkl__ has joined #ocaml
<Smerdyakov>
dross, you are on a different wavelength than most people here are, so you need to be willing to expend extra effort on clear communication.
<letaris>
dross, there are some very useful libraries for network apps in Ocaml
<dross>
Smerdyakov: I speak better than I type :)
<Smerdyakov>
OCaml is on the way out, because it's controlled too restrictively by a narrow group.
<letaris>
if you really do start a company, I would be available to talk with you
<letaris>
Smerdyakov, that...
<letaris>
*sigh*
<letaris>
is a problem
<dross>
hehe
<letaris>
then again, you can join the consortium and get the compiler under the BSD license
<dross>
so is ocaml gogni to die? ;)
<letaris>
I doubt it
<Smerdyakov>
letaris, why would I do that when there's SML?
<letaris>
the community seems to be gaining strength
* dross
grins
<Smerdyakov>
I think OCaml should be dead in 20 years.
<dross>
I could write articles to orielly
<letaris>
Smerdyakov, because the bredth of libraries written in SML is absolutely terriable
<Smerdyakov>
letaris, boo hoo. It's soooo hard to use the FFI to make your own!
<letaris>
there is literally nothing available
<dross>
I believe the popularity is also controlled by the libraries
<letaris>
Smerdyakov, I did, in Ocaml
<dross>
you must have a user base to have those libraries too
<dross>
unless you code them all yourself
<Smerdyakov>
I don't care about people who whine with this "libraries!!" bullshit.
<Smerdyakov>
You still save time using SML, even counting the time it takes to implement libraries.
<letaris>
Smerdyakov, in the real world, libraries are improtant
<letaris>
I couldn't sell SML to my boss
<Smerdyakov>
letaris, to a certain class of people with a narrow view of the world.
<letaris>
but I could sell Ocaml
<Smerdyakov>
letaris, too bad that you have a boss, then.
<dross>
having a boss is sad
<dross>
Smerdyakov: which ML do you believe in again?
<letaris>
0.o
<letaris>
working for a living is NOT sad
<Smerdyakov>
Lots of people do quite fine without having bosses.
<Smerdyakov>
Including academics.
<Smerdyakov>
(This man needs some Emergency Anarchist Literature.)
<letaris>
zomj
<letaris>
:P
<Smerdyakov>
?
<letaris>
Standard ML
<letaris>
there is a standard for ML, from which Ocaml is derived
<Smerdyakov>
SML is going places.
<Smerdyakov>
Will have the best open source optimizing compiler ever, within the next decade. I promise. :-)
<letaris>
anything is better than java if you ask me
<letaris>
but I'll stick with Ocaml for now
<letaris>
which is, by the way, ALSO standardized
<letaris>
and if you hate INRIA so much
<dross>
Smerdyakov: SML of NJ?
<letaris>
write your own implementation
<letaris>
dross, there are lots of SMLs
<letaris>
MLTON is another
<dross>
I don't have any problem with INRIA unless they close source ocaml in the future
<Smerdyakov>
MLton's the one.
<dross>
heh
<letaris>
MLton is completely non workable for buisness
<Smerdyakov>
OCaml is somewhat closed source already, in the sense that they don't seem to take additions from non-INRIA people, or something like that/
<dross>
Smerdyakov: then get in the loop
<Smerdyakov>
letaris, they're working on that. Might even be resolved already.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: its easy
<Smerdyakov>
dross, what?
<letaris>
Smerdyakov, that is completely untrue
<dross>
Smerdyakov: get to know the INRIA people personally
<Smerdyakov>
dross, that only helps for contributions from _me_.
<letaris>
I a lowly buisness programmer have submitted patches to the Ocaml tree
<dross>
Smerdyakov: INRIA is doing the right thing(tm) trust me on this one
<letaris>
and they were accepted faster than just about any other OSS project I've ever worked on (except my own of course)
<Smerdyakov>
letaris, well, someone complained about not being able to get some change accepted. I don't know the details.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: if you don't think so, get in the Ruby community for a while, it will change your mind
<Smerdyakov>
dross, no, look at the SML community!
<dross>
Smerdyakov: having change from non-INRIA is a good thing
<letaris>
Smerdyakov, if they accepted every change the language would suck!
<Smerdyakov>
letaris, already does suck from too many grafted-on "features"....
<dross>
Smerdyakov: Ruby has changes from the community. The problem with accepting everyones changes are the simple fact that it breaks implenmentation between versions
<dross>
Smerdyakov: INRIA is doing the right thing
<Smerdyakov>
I never said "accepting everyone's changes."
<letaris>
I am amazed how cleanly they have managed to tie things together
<dross>
Smerdyakov: even when accepting a few, they poison implementation standards for the compiler
<letaris>
I admit that the syntax is a bit worse for the wear
<Smerdyakov>
Yeah, right. Go magic hash function!
<letaris>
but it really is pretty good
<letaris>
look at the languages currently in use
<letaris>
widespread use
<letaris>
Ocaml is worlds better than any or them
<Smerdyakov>
And SML is counties better than OCaml. :P
<letaris>
actually ANY of lisp, scheme, dylan, SML, Ocaml, etc ANY of them
<letaris>
would be better than whats out there now
<Smerdyakov>
I'm not satisfied until formal high-level specifications are integrated everywhere.
<letaris>
I have news for you, the world doesn't care if you're satisfied :P
CosmicRay has joined #ocaml
<letaris>
I really agree with you though
<Smerdyakov>
Too bad for "the world."
<letaris>
formal specs are very important
<letaris>
but we lowly buisness programmers have to take things one step at a time
<letaris>
I have to fight to convince ppl to use Ocaml over C++
<Smerdyakov>
Why are you a lowly business programmer?
<dross>
Smerdyakov: what did you want to talk about? I won't be registering the business until a year or less
<dross>
Smerdyakov: I need to get ready _every_ piece of paperworkand advertisnig first :)
<Smerdyakov>
dross, when did I indicate that I had something to talk about? (might help me remember what you mean....)
<letaris>
Smerdyakov, because I like it :-)
<letaris>
in order to make a big difference in the world, sometimes you have to crawl down low and give people a hand
CosmicRay has quit ["Client exiting"]
<dross>
Smerdyakov: oops I mean letaris :P
<dross>
letaris: what did you want to talk about?
<letaris>
ah, nothing in particular
<letaris>
but if you're doing network stuff
<letaris>
you may end up using some of my libraries
<letaris>
or libraries I work on
<letaris>
I was offering my general support in that endeavor
<dross>
letaris: do you know why ocaml can beat the optimiser in gcc C?
<Smerdyakov>
dross, dumb luck. Ask the question for MLton and you can get good answers. ;)
<letaris>
not off hand, no
<dross>
letaris: do you know why ocaml can beat the optimiser in gcc C?
<dross>
oops
<dross>
letaris: ocaml beat gcc C by .08ns
<Smerdyakov>
dross, averaged over many trials?
<dross>
Smerdyakov: yes, I sat there running it in a loop in sh
<Smerdyakov>
Still not a significant difference
<dross>
on BSD anyway.. it could be BSDs fault for the speed.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: any speed is a significant speed
<Riastradh>
dross, try it for a significant program.
<Riastradh>
Small benchmarks rarely offer useful results.
<pango>
Riastradh: about portability of the bytecode runtime
<Smerdyakov>
dross, how about you show that you will even fall through with using any functional language for anything serious?
<Submarine>
the bytecode runtime should be portable to any Unixoid system on a 32-bit or 64-bit machine
<Riastradh>
dross, take the plural out of that. I don't use MLton (or any ML much) or agree with the GPL.
<Smerdyakov>
dross, the last "outsider" who used up so much airtime in the ML community ended up deciding he didn't like ML, after months of long messages and forming an in-person interest group. :P
<Riastradh>
pango, no -- why would it be?
<dross>
Riastradh: I agree with GPL at certain times, but not all the time like some people do.
<Smerdyakov>
dross, so, if you might end up the same way, it would be better to withhold any arguments based on trying to make money by selling ML software.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: I can use any langauge I want.
<Smerdyakov>
dross, you can, but that doesn't mean that doing so is sensible.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: some people are smarter at keeping syntax forever in thier head :)
<Smerdyakov>
dross, I don't see the relevance of that.
<pango>
Riastradh: you said ocaml vm wasn't written in C too... you were talking about the native runtime, or... ?
<dross>
Smerdyakov: means I can use any langauge I wish. And the small language problems don't bother me.
<Riastradh>
pango, no, I said that the OCaml VM _is_ written in C.
<pango>
<Riastradh> Virtual machines tend to be written in C, too. (OCaml's is.)
<pango>
ah, for some reason I read isN'T
<Smerdyakov>
dross, ...and?
<dross>
pango: hehe.
<pango>
damn me
<dross>
Smerdyakov: ocaml apps have been decent, the couple gtk apps are decent too
<pango>
so many SML advocacy around here, sometimes you wonder
<Smerdyakov>
dross, you mean you those you have written?
<pango>
are there SML users in #sml too ?
<dross>
pango: I could call them a name most introverts use. but I realize they are just being extrovertant
<Riastradh>
There's really only one SML advocate here, Smerdyakov. I may seem like one, but I'm really neutral in this whole matter.
<dross>
Smerdyakov: not full. I was just dinking around with examples and cut pasting code in a app until I learn ocaml more.
* dross
looks... too much green tea :P brb.
<Smerdyakov>
dross, so you have no evidence that you will even want to use OCaml eventually....
<dross>
Smerdyakov: not for a full app, no.
Snark has joined #ocaml
<Snark>
slt
Amorphous has quit [Client Quit]
Snark has quit ["Leaving"]
Amorphous has joined #ocaml
mbh has joined #ocaml
mbh has quit ["leaving"]
<dross>
`the ORA book isn't 100% clear
<dross>
I'm glad reading those tutorials helped before I read the book.
<dross>
oh well :)
smimou has joined #ocaml
cmeme has quit [Remote closed the connection]
smkl__ has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
mattam has joined #ocaml
<dross>
are there any ML group listings for the US?
pango has quit ["brb"]
drewr has joined #ocaml
zzorn_away is now known as zzorn
pango has joined #ocaml
cmeme has joined #ocaml
cmeme has quit [Remote closed the connection]
cmeme has joined #ocaml
mbh has joined #ocaml
cmeme has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
cmeme has joined #ocaml
_JusSx_ has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
smkl__ has joined #ocaml
mbh has quit ["Lost terminal"]
vezenchio has quit ["Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes"]
vezenchio has joined #ocaml
cmeme has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)]
mlh has joined #ocaml
cmeme has joined #ocaml
cmeme has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
kuribas has joined #ocaml
monochrom has joined #ocaml
cjohnson has joined #ocaml
cmeme has joined #ocaml
cmeme has quit [Remote closed the connection]
cmeme has joined #ocaml
cmeme has quit [Remote closed the connection]
xol has joined #ocaml
cmeme has joined #ocaml
cmeme has quit [Remote closed the connection]
cmeme has joined #ocaml
cjohnson has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
Xolution has joined #ocaml
zzorn_ has joined #ocaml
xol has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
zzorn has quit [Connection timed out]
zzorn has joined #ocaml
Nioate has joined #ocaml
zzorn_ has quit ["They are coming to take me away, ha ha"]
Submarine has quit ["Leaving"]
_JusSx_ has joined #ocaml
<_JusSx_>
lol
<Nioate>
yeah
<dross>
hi there
drewr` has joined #ocaml
xol has joined #ocaml
drewr has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
drewr` has quit ["ERC Version 5.0 $Revision: 1.735 $ (IRC client for Emacs)"]
det has joined #ocaml
Xolution has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
_JusSx_ has quit ["leaving"]
CosmicRay has quit ["Client exiting"]
vezenchio has quit ["Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes"]
Herrchen has quit ["good night"]
cmeme has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)]
malc_ has joined #ocaml
cmeme has joined #ocaml
lmbdwar has joined #ocaml
<lmbdwar>
evening
<lmbdwar>
whats an omega-regular language ?
Xolution has joined #ocaml
malc_ has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
<monochrom>
A language of infinite strings accepted by a certain Buchi automaton.
<monochrom>
Hmm you sound deja vu
cjohnson has joined #ocaml
<lmbdwar>
monochrom, :>
<lmbdwar>
monochrom, what kind of 'certain'
<monochrom>
the existential kind
<monochrom>
L is omega-regular iff forsome Buchi automaton B. B accepts L.