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<dross>
lo'
<dross>
ocaml is really fast :)
<dross>
sometimes its actually been beating gcc C, like fibb. algos..
<dross>
I'm curious why so, I've been hearing its slower.. must be my OS
<letaris>
heh, not so
<letaris>
I've been doing performance optimizations on ocamldap recently, and I'm wipeing the floor with openldap's lber decoder
<letaris>
my ldapsearch command is nearly twice as fast as the ldapsearch in openldap 2.1.x
<letaris>
and about 5% faster than the one in 2.2.x (they did a lot of optimization in 2.2)
<letaris>
dross, what are you using Ocaml for?
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<dross>
letaris: I was just testing simple math algorithms, I'll get deeper soon.
<letaris>
oh, cool
<letaris>
yes it excells at that kind of stuff
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<dross>
letaris: also software designing, graphical user interfaces
<dross>
I've been wanting to open my own business. and am trying
<letaris>
hm, interesting
<dross>
I've to say GTK works rather well, adn the API design was well thought out.
<letaris>
yes, lablgtk is a nice toolkit
<dross>
I've been using glade to quickly throw together the apps
<dross>
I wish there was a lablWideStudio, but nope :)
<letaris>
ah, I havn't used mlglade yet
<dross>
lablgtk contains a gladecc2 app
<dross>
you can convert the glade format files to gtk2 ocaml files
<letaris>
yeah, I've been wanting to learn gtk at a low level for a while, so I avoided glade
<dross>
gtk looks okay, I still dislike the license.
<letaris>
0.o
<letaris>
LGPL is pretty free...
<dross>
not for statically linking ;)
<letaris>
really, hm
<dross>
I much perfer WideStudio for 1) MIT licensed, 2) officially supports C/C++,Perl,Python, and Ruby, and 3) works on almost any platform like TK without being so damned messly designed
<dross>
letaris: with the LGPL, if you statically link. You _must_ give out object code so people can relink.
<letaris>
hmm
<letaris>
that isn't soooo bad...
<letaris>
but its certianly annoying
<dross>
asnnoying, yes.
<dross>
and I dislike annoyances
<letaris>
hehe, I guess that's why you want to use Ocaml
<dross>
yep.
<dross>
I started getting annoyed after trying to use gcc C/C++ and icc C/C++ and getting in the compiler mess
<letaris>
hahaha
<Riastradh>
The [L]GPL is ridiculous. Linking, static or dynamic, is much too vaguely ill-defined to possibly be defensible.
<dross>
I like math computation, but I don't wan tot learn 2 million languages
<letaris>
let me put it this way
<dross>
I dislike how FORTRAN look, and I don't like lisp because it has no style
<letaris>
I regurlarly turn down work because they want it done in C
<Riastradh>
No style?
<dross>
(let (us( pro(gram (
<letaris>
or they want me to dig in to some gawd awful C app and fix something
<letaris>
like openldap
<letaris>
good lord
<Riastradh>
...?
<dross>
like( this (all (day2)))
<humasect>
>_<
<dross>
))))
<humasect>
)))))))
<letaris>
200,000 some odd lines of C code
<Riastradh>
dross, do you realize how stupid a response like that is?
<dross>
letaris: I like C code.. but most people don't use dstyle, or don't even program correctly
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<dross>
Riastradh: ()'s play tricks on my eyes
<letaris>
you must irc in emacs then!
<Riastradh>
It would be like if I said 'fun -> match () 3i2 | while for foo' in response to a question like 'what's wrong with OCaml's syntax?'
<dross>
letaris: in erc
<Riastradh>
dross, does the whitespace in newspaper play tricks on your eyes?
<dross>
Riastradh: no, but thats because theres nothing to read there ;)
<Riastradh>
No Lisper reads & counts parentheses precisely either.
<Riastradh>
Once you familiarize yourself a bit with Lisp, you don't notice them any more.
<dross>
Riastradh: I chose ocaml because I started to dislike changing languages frequently
<dross>
Riastradh: lispers are perfect though ;)
<humasect>
if you walk in wooden shoes, you can also not notice them after a while. physiologically this is called numbness.
<letaris>
mmmm, lisp
<letaris>
mmmm
<humasect>
mmmmmmmmm
<Riastradh>
If you use OCaml a lot, you can also not notice the awful syntax after a while. This can also be called numbness, but do you see how pointless these kinds of arguments are?
* humasect
has nothing against lisp. but only the term "getting used to"
<Riastradh>
You have to get used to any syntax before you can use it fluently.
<letaris>
yes, s expressions are beautiful
<humasect>
(it always tends to take subconscious processing space =o)
<letaris>
too bad the language is dynamically typed
<Riastradh>
humasect, how does that change what I said? For any syntax, you must become familiar or comfortable with it before you can use it fluently.
<humasect>
("getting used to" is more often related to a tolerance barrier of pain becoming surpassed)
<humasect>
you said what you meant, it isn't changed at all. i'm being annoying, sorry
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<letaris>
hehe, remember the pa_lisp camlp4 plugin
<letaris>
I like Ocaml's static type safety though, and pattern matching (which makes static type safety bearable)
<dross>
I like ocaml just because its a safe language
<dross>
and compile methods
<dross>
and speed
<letaris>
well, lisp is mostly safe, as safe as ocaml is
<letaris>
its just safe a run time
<letaris>
which is a big difference
<letaris>
s/safe a/safe at/
<Riastradh>
Nothing prevents static analysis of Lisp.
<letaris>
Riastradh, exactly right, something I look forward to happening
<letaris>
but it isn't available just yet
<Riastradh>
Serious Lisp compilers have existed for decades, letaris.
<letaris>
mmm, yes, cmucl is very nice
<Riastradh>
Go look at Stalin, Python, LIAR, &c.
<letaris>
Stalin I have never looked at
<Riastradh>
It is a Scheme compiler roughly analogous to MLton.
<Riastradh>
It was developed originally at NEC's research lab at Princeton based on compiler technology that was developed at about the same time.
<letaris>
hm, cool
<letaris>
I've messed mostly with cmucl
<Riastradh>
Chez Scheme also allegedly has some serious compiler technology, but it's completely closed, proprietary, and a wee bit on the expensive side.
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<Riastradh>
All those compilers I listed are much better than OCaml's, which doesn't even perform any closure optimization.
<letaris>
yet ocaml programs seem to run faster
<letaris>
at least from what I've seen
<Riastradh>
By what measure?
<letaris>
well, bagley's shootout is one measure
<letaris>
though, reading some of the code there
<Riastradh>
...a worthless one.
<letaris>
I wouldn't call it worthless
<letaris>
but it definatly should not be the only one
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<letaris>
we mainly decided on Ocaml for a couple of reasons
<letaris>
1. Its fast enough for us
<letaris>
2. its statically type safe
<letaris>
3. It already had the libraries we needed
<Riastradh>
What libraries in specific?
<letaris>
fairly comprehensive posix bindings
<letaris>
some nice data structures
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<letaris>
ldap, xml parser, web stuff
<letaris>
and a pretty nice FFI
<Riastradh>
(I'm not criticizing you, by the way; OCaml is certainly fast enough for most applications, and I'm just curious why more specifically you chose OCaml.)
<letaris>
reason number one is static type safety
<letaris>
that is very important to us, because it has been shown (by us, in practice) to reduce our debug time by a lot
<letaris>
we don't have a lot of resources, so we need to utilize them as best we can
<Riastradh>
Have you compared it with a good Lisp environment like SLIME and a good compiler that will report errors & warnings statically?
<letaris>
we spent some resources looking at lisp
<letaris>
I cannot honestly say that we HAD enough resources to turn over ever rock
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<_JusSx_>
here nobody talks
<_JusSx_>
pango:
<_JusSx_>
pango: oiaoop
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<pango>
reading
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