mfurr changed the topic of #ocaml to: OCaml 3.08.2 available! | Archive of Caml Weekly News: http://sardes.inrialpes.fr/~aschmitt/cwn/ | A free book: http://cristal.inria.fr/~remy/cours/appsem/ | Mailing List: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/wilma/caml-list/ | Cookbook: http://pleac.sourceforge.net/
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<davidmccabe> hi folks.
<davidmccabe> I just started using ocaml. liking it so far.
<davidmccabe> However I'm annoyed by the interactive interpreter.
<davidmccabe> What I'm looknig for is one that supports command history and editing and such.
<davidmccabe> any pointers?
<Smerdyakov> Use emacs or rlwrap.
<davidmccabe> thanks.
<davidmccabe> k
<davidmccabe> neato!
<Riastradh> ...or ledit, which is written in OCaml.
<Riastradh> (But just running it under Emacs is best.)
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<davidmccabe> hey folks, what's the usual file name extension for ocaml sources?
<davidmccabe> brb
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<davidmccabe> nm; I need sleep. gnight.
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<Lez> c'est grave si je parle en français ici ?
<Submarine> bof
<Lez> c'est pour vous éviter mon lamentable anglais...
<Lez> alors bonjour tout le monde :)
<Lez> je cherche à tester qu'un chemin correspond bien à un répertoire
<Lez> et il n'y a pas l'air d'avoir ce genre de chose dans les modules sys ou filename
<Lez> j'ai vu qu'il existait une lib fileutil mais je n'ai pas envie d'une dépendance juste pour ce petit truc...
<Lez> donc pour l'instant je me base sur l'exception système
<smimou> regarde du côté de Unix.stat
<Lez> ...
<Lez> oui désolé j'ai même pas pensé à regarder de ce coté là
<Lez> oui il y a ce qu'il faut
<Lez> merci
<Lez> bon je suis encore un newb sur ocaml...
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<Lez> comment accèdes ton à l'enregistrement d'un type définit définit dans un module sans avoir importé ce dernier
<Lez> autrement dit j'ai un objet de type Unix.stats
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<Lez> et j'aimerais accéder à son champs st_kind
<smimou> st.Unix.st_kind
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<smimou> (où st est la valeur de type Unix.stats)
<Lez> ...
<Lez> j'avais tenté s.(Unix.st_kind)
<Lez> merci
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<Lez> est-il possible d'utiliser <- et -> pour naviguer dans la ligne courante de l'interpreteur ?
<Submarine> Lez: utilise ledit ou emacs
<Lez> non je n'ai pas envie :)
<Lez> j'aime pas emacs
<Lez> ledit par contre je ne connais pas...
<Lez> "A line editor to be used with interactive commands."
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<Lez> mhh je ne vois pas trop à quoi ça correspond
<Submarine> à un truc qui te permet d'avori l'édition des lignes de commandes dans ocaml
<Lez> c'est exactement ce que je recherchais, merci Submarine
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<Lez> je suis entrain de regarder les exemples de PCRE-OCaml
<Lez> et je ne comprends pas du tout l'utilité de cela :
<Lez> let quick = ref false
<Lez> bon en fait c'est lié au module Arg qui demande une référence
<Lez> sinon je ne vois pas à quoi sert l'opérateur ~
<Lez> compris
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<Lez> dans le livre "Développement d'applications avec OCaml" il parle des labels comme fesant parti de l'extension O'Labl qui a donc été integré...
<Lez> je n'ai pas trouvé de ref à ce ~ dans ce livre
<pango> le bouquin d'o'reilly commence à dater...
<Lez> quel choix a été fait par rapport au conflit de syntaxe avec la déclaration explicite de type ?
<Lez> bon en fait c'est également dans la page de ton lien
<Submarine> c'est simple
<Submarine> si tu mets une espace avant : c'est un type
<Submarine> si tu n'en mets pas c'est un label :-)
<Submarine> (et les labels faut aussi ~)
<Lez> ok ce qui n'était pas le cas dans O'Labl
<Lez> d'où l'introduction du ~ qui n'est donc pas dans le livre
<Lez> tout s'explique
<Smerdyakov> Fine. If you don't want help from people who don't speak French, be that way!
<Lez> excuse me, Smerdyakov but my english is horrible... and there enough frogs here to be able to answer me...
<Smerdyakov> Your English is great, if that line is representative! :)
<Lez> it isn't representative :)
<Lez> but i will try, it's a good training and i have the time to prepare my phrases
* Submarine weeps.
<Lez> ?
<Submarine> Nothing. I'm trying to use Coq for Real Work (TM).
<smimou> kidding ?
<Smerdyakov> You and your bizarre proving requests. :D
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<Lez> i have a recursive function : "let rec walk dirname callback" and i want to call it with a mapping function (Array.iter) which work on dirnames
<Submarine> so?
<Lez> how can I do this, "dirname" is the first argument and labels don't help me
<Lez> or i don't see how labels can help me
<Lez> For the moement, I reversed the order of arguments, so I can call "walk" with :
<Lez> Array.iter (walk callback) (Sys.readdir ".");
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<letaris> hi
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<letaris> hi teiax
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<dross> lo'
<dross> ocaml is really fast :)
<dross> sometimes its actually been beating gcc C, like fibb. algos..
<dross> I'm curious why so, I've been hearing its slower.. must be my OS
<letaris> heh, not so
<letaris> I've been doing performance optimizations on ocamldap recently, and I'm wipeing the floor with openldap's lber decoder
<letaris> my ldapsearch command is nearly twice as fast as the ldapsearch in openldap 2.1.x
<letaris> and about 5% faster than the one in 2.2.x (they did a lot of optimization in 2.2)
<letaris> dross, what are you using Ocaml for?
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<dross> letaris: I was just testing simple math algorithms, I'll get deeper soon.
<letaris> oh, cool
<letaris> yes it excells at that kind of stuff
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<dross> letaris: also software designing, graphical user interfaces
<dross> I've been wanting to open my own business. and am trying
<letaris> hm, interesting
<dross> I've to say GTK works rather well, adn the API design was well thought out.
<letaris> yes, lablgtk is a nice toolkit
<dross> I've been using glade to quickly throw together the apps
<dross> I wish there was a lablWideStudio, but nope :)
<letaris> ah, I havn't used mlglade yet
<dross> lablgtk contains a gladecc2 app
<dross> you can convert the glade format files to gtk2 ocaml files
<letaris> yeah, I've been wanting to learn gtk at a low level for a while, so I avoided glade
<dross> gtk looks okay, I still dislike the license.
<letaris> 0.o
<letaris> LGPL is pretty free...
<dross> not for statically linking ;)
<letaris> really, hm
<dross> I much perfer WideStudio for 1) MIT licensed, 2) officially supports C/C++,Perl,Python, and Ruby, and 3) works on almost any platform like TK without being so damned messly designed
<dross> letaris: with the LGPL, if you statically link. You _must_ give out object code so people can relink.
<letaris> hmm
<letaris> that isn't soooo bad...
<letaris> but its certianly annoying
<dross> asnnoying, yes.
<dross> and I dislike annoyances
<letaris> hehe, I guess that's why you want to use Ocaml
<dross> yep.
<dross> I started getting annoyed after trying to use gcc C/C++ and icc C/C++ and getting in the compiler mess
<letaris> hahaha
<Riastradh> The [L]GPL is ridiculous. Linking, static or dynamic, is much too vaguely ill-defined to possibly be defensible.
<dross> I like math computation, but I don't wan tot learn 2 million languages
<letaris> let me put it this way
<dross> I dislike how FORTRAN look, and I don't like lisp because it has no style
<letaris> I regurlarly turn down work because they want it done in C
<Riastradh> No style?
<dross> (let (us( pro(gram (
<letaris> or they want me to dig in to some gawd awful C app and fix something
<letaris> like openldap
<letaris> good lord
<Riastradh> ...?
<dross> like( this (all (day2)))
<humasect> >_<
<dross> ))))
<humasect> )))))))
<letaris> 200,000 some odd lines of C code
<Riastradh> dross, do you realize how stupid a response like that is?
<dross> letaris: I like C code.. but most people don't use dstyle, or don't even program correctly
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<dross> Riastradh: ()'s play tricks on my eyes
<letaris> you must irc in emacs then!
<Riastradh> It would be like if I said 'fun -> match () 3i2 | while for foo' in response to a question like 'what's wrong with OCaml's syntax?'
<dross> letaris: in erc
<Riastradh> dross, does the whitespace in newspaper play tricks on your eyes?
<dross> Riastradh: no, but thats because theres nothing to read there ;)
<Riastradh> No Lisper reads & counts parentheses precisely either.
<Riastradh> Once you familiarize yourself a bit with Lisp, you don't notice them any more.
<dross> Riastradh: I chose ocaml because I started to dislike changing languages frequently
<dross> Riastradh: lispers are perfect though ;)
<humasect> if you walk in wooden shoes, you can also not notice them after a while. physiologically this is called numbness.
<letaris> mmmm, lisp
<letaris> mmmm
<humasect> mmmmmmmmm
<Riastradh> If you use OCaml a lot, you can also not notice the awful syntax after a while. This can also be called numbness, but do you see how pointless these kinds of arguments are?
* humasect has nothing against lisp. but only the term "getting used to"
<Riastradh> You have to get used to any syntax before you can use it fluently.
<letaris> yes, s expressions are beautiful
<humasect> (it always tends to take subconscious processing space =o)
<letaris> too bad the language is dynamically typed
<humasect> riastradh: okay, sorry. let's say "become comfortable and/or familiar with"
<Riastradh> humasect, how does that change what I said? For any syntax, you must become familiar or comfortable with it before you can use it fluently.
<humasect> ("getting used to" is more often related to a tolerance barrier of pain becoming surpassed)
<humasect> you said what you meant, it isn't changed at all. i'm being annoying, sorry
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<letaris> hehe, remember the pa_lisp camlp4 plugin
<letaris> I like Ocaml's static type safety though, and pattern matching (which makes static type safety bearable)
<dross> I like ocaml just because its a safe language
<dross> and compile methods
<dross> and speed
<letaris> well, lisp is mostly safe, as safe as ocaml is
<letaris> its just safe a run time
<letaris> which is a big difference
<letaris> s/safe a/safe at/
<Riastradh> Nothing prevents static analysis of Lisp.
<letaris> Riastradh, exactly right, something I look forward to happening
<letaris> but it isn't available just yet
<Riastradh> Serious Lisp compilers have existed for decades, letaris.
<letaris> mmm, yes, cmucl is very nice
<Riastradh> Go look at Stalin, Python, LIAR, &c.
<letaris> Stalin I have never looked at
<Riastradh> It is a Scheme compiler roughly analogous to MLton.
<Riastradh> It was developed originally at NEC's research lab at Princeton based on compiler technology that was developed at about the same time.
<letaris> hm, cool
<letaris> I've messed mostly with cmucl
<Riastradh> Chez Scheme also allegedly has some serious compiler technology, but it's completely closed, proprietary, and a wee bit on the expensive side.
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<Riastradh> All those compilers I listed are much better than OCaml's, which doesn't even perform any closure optimization.
<letaris> yet ocaml programs seem to run faster
<letaris> at least from what I've seen
<Riastradh> By what measure?
<letaris> well, bagley's shootout is one measure
<letaris> though, reading some of the code there
<Riastradh> ...a worthless one.
<letaris> I wouldn't call it worthless
<letaris> but it definatly should not be the only one
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<letaris> we mainly decided on Ocaml for a couple of reasons
<letaris> 1. Its fast enough for us
<letaris> 2. its statically type safe
<letaris> 3. It already had the libraries we needed
<Riastradh> What libraries in specific?
<letaris> fairly comprehensive posix bindings
<letaris> some nice data structures
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<letaris> ldap, xml parser, web stuff
<letaris> and a pretty nice FFI
<Riastradh> (I'm not criticizing you, by the way; OCaml is certainly fast enough for most applications, and I'm just curious why more specifically you chose OCaml.)
<letaris> reason number one is static type safety
<letaris> that is very important to us, because it has been shown (by us, in practice) to reduce our debug time by a lot
<letaris> we don't have a lot of resources, so we need to utilize them as best we can
<Riastradh> Have you compared it with a good Lisp environment like SLIME and a good compiler that will report errors & warnings statically?
<letaris> we spent some resources looking at lisp
<letaris> I cannot honestly say that we HAD enough resources to turn over ever rock
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<_JusSx_> here nobody talks
<_JusSx_> pango:
<_JusSx_> pango: oiaoop
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<pango> reading
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