flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | 3.11.0 out now! Get yours from http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/release.html
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<Anarchos> hcarty i finally found my mistake : i didn't protect access to caml_local_roots, which is a global pointer
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<palomer> hrmph
<palomer> I'd like to do something in the spirit of haskell's read
<palomer> it's straightforward to do in caml4p, right?
<alexyk> blitz-challenge: what's the shortest way to rotate an array? a lá rot13, but for any offset; same for list
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<Yoric[DT]> hi
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<alexyk> so I needed concurrency and found an ethread package with Thread; then folks pointed out ocaml can't have threads yet due to sequential GC. What gives?
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<robocop> Hello.
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<robocop> I've got a problem with streams in this code : http://paste.pocoo.org/show/95917/
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<robocop> when i write "get_nb [<''1'; ''2'; ''.'; ''3'>];;"
<robocop> i've got : "12" and not "12.3"
<robocop> do you know why ?
<vixey> robocop, I could make wild guesses if you like
<vixey> robocop, maybe it's the order of the pattern matches
<vixey> (in get_nb)
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<robocop> vixey: if i replace the order of the pattern matches; he know "12.3" bot no "12"...
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<vixey> well make up your mind
<robocop> Hum, okey :).
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<hcarty> alexyk: You can use threads in OCaml, but it won't take advantage of more than one CPU
<alexyk> hcarty: ah, so they'll be time-sliced?
<Kerris7> copy of OCaml for Scientists arrived today
<Kerris7> I can see why it costs £85 :V
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<alexyk> kerris7: well I got mine a month ago, and it's spiral-bound, is that why? :)
<Kerris7> haha yeah, it took a bit more than a month for mine to arrive
<Smerdyakov> How is it published?
<alexyk> kerris7: apparently cornell ordered a big batch right before, mine was one but last left after that
<alexyk> Smerdyakov: it's basically a binder you can make yourself
<Kerris7> Smerdyakov: maybe Dr Harrop prefers hand-assemble them personally :V
<Kerris7> prefers to*
<Smerdyakov> alexyk, I was asking about who is doing it.
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<alexyk> Smerdyakov: it doesn't say; a nearby color printer
<Smerdyakov> Dodgy indeed
<alexyk> kerris7: the cost-smarter way now is to buy F# for the same Scientists off of Amazon marketplace for $40+$3 shipping
<Kerris7> alexyk: I have both now :D
<alexyk> kerris7: do they match?
<Kerris7> not completely
<Kerris7> also I have an irrational fear of anything that comes from MSFT
<alexyk> kerris7: well, at least we'll be in the elite list of people who managed to buy the binder for $170
<Kerris7> haha well said
<Kerris7> I wonder how much MSFT paid for the OCaml source code
<alexyk> and it is well-written, it's just unfortunately priced -- lower price would increase volume
<Kerris7> true, I'll probably put the pages into a holder when I find one big enough
<Smerdyakov> Kerris7, what are you talking about, re: buying OCaml source code?
<Kerris7> oh, er, joining the Caml Consortium
<Smerdyakov> The Caml Consortium is cheap. Any giganto company can join at negligible relative expense.
<alexyk> kerris7: and it *is* the first book on ocaml you could ever buy, afaik
<alexyk> in English
<mfp> "To become a member necessitates a contribution that can be as low as 2000 Euros for a minimal support to Caml."
<Kerris7> mfp: yeah, read that page
<Kerris7> I somehow assumed that MSFT derived F# from OCaml source :V
<Smerdyakov> There is a strange fetishism of books among a big subset of developers.
<Smerdyakov> There's plenty of good stuff online for free, folks.
<Kerris7> Smerdyakov: some of us code on typewriters :V
<alexyk> kerris7: folks tell me F# has real threads, so at least that is a serious advantage over ocaml right now
<Smerdyakov> Kerris7, was there any real content to that statement?
<alexyk> I managed to rewrite my forking program, but is was a pain, and much debugging
<Kerris7> er, coding on typewriters, Smerdyakov?
<alexyk> Smerdyakov: bibliophiles love books; if they happen to be developers, it doubles
<Smerdyakov> Kerris7, yes. I'm trying to understand if that was a metaphorical explanation of why you want to buy books.
<mfp> alexyk: except for the fact that it's Windows-only if you want performance --- last I heard, F# on mono was still slow
<Kerris7> oh, I don't really have a good reason for why I like buying books
<alexyk> the flourishment of O'Reilly and APress and Manning proves programmers love books
<alexyk> you need to read them away from computer to learn properly
<alexyk> printing hundreds of pages is tedious, managing printouts is hard
<alexyk> also, a printed book is a fixed checkpoint, git tag "milestone"
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<alexyk> it's a common reference point to all describing a language
<Smerdyakov> alexyk, this is obviously not true of all programmers.
<alexyk> Smerdyakov: of course, it is a generalization; but any Barnes and Noble comp section proves they sell
<robocop> vixey: have you found a solution ?
<Smerdyakov> alexyk, so I pointed out a strange fetishism of books by many programmers, and you're basically just saying you agree that it exists.
<alexyk> Smerdyakov: you definition of strange is a strange one in turn, as usually strange is in minority, and subjectively I assess that book-loving programmers are in the majority
<Smerdyakov> alexyk, I want to tentatively hypothesize an inverse correlation between book-fetishism and effectiveness as a programmer.
<Smerdyakov> alexyk, the great thing about buying a book is that you can pretend you're working while you read it.
<alexyk> Smerdyakov: I'm not interested in being a programmer, I deal with research and teh real question is can you be a good researcher who programs his needs; researchers read books; and they're not the best programmers.
<Smerdyakov> I think researchers in engineering read many more peer-reviewed papers than books.
<Smerdyakov> That's where mos of the good stuff is, especially once you've been in your field for a few years.
<alexyk> Whether people can read books at work is a great criteria for how research and learning-friendly a company is; look around a potential workplace -- if people read books, take it. If everybody is glued to the screen, and feels like reading a book looks like "slacking," don't go there
<Smerdyakov> I didn't mean "pretend you're working" in the sense of convincing anyone but yourself.
<alexyk> Smerdyakov: well I order Springer books often, and papers are not enough to have an effect of a good book on a topic like Markov models; and you can get MIT press books which are collections of the best papers
<Smerdyakov> Markov models are, I think, a good example of something that anyone who's been working in machine learning for 5 years will already have a good understanding of.
<Koordin> hi, does someone have an idea in order to make this code cleaner or prettier ? http://rafb.net/p/UFHTQ175.html
<Smerdyakov> Koordin, wow. Where did you get this weird style?
<Smerdyakov> Koordin, haven't you seen [if] expressions?
<alexyk> Smerdyakov: there're advances in fact, but generally you're right in the sense that if you are a machine learning researcher for years, you generally know it; yet you can get a whole HMM book with cutting-edge stuff you might not know
<Koordin> Smerdyakov: sure i have, but the code would be even uglier with if's
<Smerdyakov> Koordin, I disagree.
<Koordin> the number of parenthesis would be tremendous
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<Smerdyakov> Koordin, also, you have many extraneous parentheses. I think any parenthesis in any of your [when] conditions can be removed.
<Koordin> for each line i should add a set of parentheses
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<Smerdyakov> No, you could translate this into [if] expressions with no parentheses, period.
<Smerdyakov> Actually, I can strengthen my earlier statement: every single parenthesis can be removed, even from your current code.
<Koordin> with no parentheses but with begin/end
<alexyk> need to go before it's dark, see you guys later
<Smerdyakov> No, you need no [begin..end].
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<Smerdyakov> And that's just the trivial syntactic stuff.
<Smerdyakov> It's very easy to write a higher-order function that generalizes that pattern you are demonstrating.
<Smerdyakov> If you don't see how to do that, then you need more practice with functional programming; some kind of textbook might be in order.
<Koordin> yes i think i'll write a function that takes f1 fn as parameters
<Koordin> Smerdyakov: in my actual code, if i don't write the parentheses, how can the interpreter know that " | _ when (b22) && (not b21) -> -1 " is for the second pattern matching and not for the first one ?
<Koordin> the parser*
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<Smerdyakov> That's just the definition of the OCaml language. The grammar is not ambiguous.
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<Koordin> ok i'll write the function you told me about
<Koordin> Smerdyakov: http://rafb.net/p/g1JYfl72.html
<vixey> Koordin, why not put predicatesList as the last parameter?
<Koordin> i don't have any objection, but why is it better to do so ?
<Smerdyakov> Koordin, not bad. I don't like to indent after [let]s like that, and you mention the boolean variables in an inconsistent order in the different tests.
<vixey> I'm just supposing that you would partially apply g, h1 or h2 more often
<Smerdyakov> Koordin, a bigger suggestion would be to use a local function definition, to avoid repeating parameters in recursive calls.
<Koordin> vixey: no the function is for comparing h1 and h2 so i won't call partially the function on h1 and h2
<Koordin> Smerdyakov: what is the problem in repeating parameters in recursive calls ?
<Koordin> the indention after the let is made by emacs (and i like it :))
<Koordin> and the order is consistent (1 - h1 wins ; 2 - h2 wins ; 3 - we don't know yet but g will tell us ; 4 - we really don't know yet)
<Smerdyakov> Koordin, when someone reads someone else's code, he tries to understand why each choice of function-call parameter is correct. Thus, the fewer parameters passed, the easier to understand.
<Smerdyakov> Koordin, let me try again to say what I meant about order: in the first test, [b1] comes before [b2]; in the other tests, the order is swapped.
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<Koordin> yes right
<Koordin> Smerdyakov: you would have written something like that ? http://rafb.net/p/xHRCH170.html
<Smerdyakov> Yes, and you can tweak caml-mode's indenting to avoid indenting after [let] ends.
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<Koordin> ok but i like it this way
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<ski_> Koordin : alternate way <http://rafb.net/p/gNl3YF99.html>
<Koordin> ski_: thanks, this is clearer with a match
<ski_> (you'll note i changed argument order slightly)
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<Koordin> yes, as vixey was suggesting
<vixey> I would also suggest to make a type that says Less Equal or Greater, instead of using -1 0 and 1
<vixey> simply because I do not read '1' as "Greater"
<ski_> (it meant "greater" ?!)
* ski_ didn't actually read the variable names
<vixey> oh yeah I am using the wrong case here
<Koordin> i wanted to do something like Pervasives.compare
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<Koordin> is it possible to trace every function with a single command ?
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<alexyk> anybody programmed a lot both in ocaml and erlang? is it easy to transition to erlang (when concurrency it needed)?
<alexyk> ...and can you interop?
<Anarchos> alexyk al ot with ocaml yes, but never erlang sorry
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<olegfink> alexyk: interop, one of the funnest questions
<alexyk> olegfink: well erlang looks weird to complete newbies, but almost like a just a little weird uncle to ocaml
<olegfink> though I have no idea about erlang, I more need ocaml<->haskell as all my friends speak haskell and it's a pain to rewrite the code every time we need to build something
<alexyk> olegfink: it's like Russian and Ukrraininan, the closer you are, the more confused and ambivalent you are about each other; needing to establish your udentity by delineating differences with the clone :)
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<olegfink> yeah, noone of us wants to use the other language though everyone knows both to at least some extent
<olegfink> you're right, it's the same zealotry I suppose
<Anarchos> alexyk tyii gavario pa russkiy ? ;)
<alexyk> olegfink: did you see prelude.ml? you can force the Haskellkranians to use that
<olegfink> uhm, no, only heard from you. any url (google doesn't seem to serve well for this)?
<alexyk> anarchos: да, конечно
<alexyk> it's by Mr. kig here
<Anarchos> alexyk sorry my occidental irc agent doesn't display cyrillic
<alexyk> anarchos: yes, sure :)
<Anarchos> ia govoriou niemnovo pa russkiy...
<alexyk> anarchos: that makes several of us here :)
<alexyk> man I want to use all -- erlang, haskell, and ocaml -- together
<alexyk> but too much work it is
<alexyk> and erlang has no numerics anywhere... bad sign
<olegfink> well, eh, that, for example, won't give them their beloved (.)
<olegfink> but prelude.ml + deriving would make ocaml look very haskellish, but is there a point in it?
<Anarchos> alexyk i am french but interested in russian
<alexyk> anarchos: and I'm the other way! :) Although French is #3 on my list now, after Italian & Spanish, not to mention Erlang and Haskell
* olegfink can't say two words in french, shaaame
<alexyk> olegfink: surely you can say bonjour, that's one, and adieu, that's two
<Anarchos> alexyk french is much less difficult to learn that russian i think
<olegfink> alexyk: well, anyway, I think there are more people who are interested in FP interop, so we might try something somewhen somehow
<olegfink> alexyk: but... they make no sense _together_ :-(
<alexyk> olegfink: that'sa real shame. I'd take concurrency from Erlang any day
<paul424> hey whats wrong with that .... http://codepad.org/MZWdwuRB ? I get unbound value mcompare
<alexyk> but I need fast numerics and text processing
<olegfink> alexyk: er, sorry, what is?
<alexyk> olegfink: that we can't have it all :)
<alexyk> wow, look what folks on #erlang have just thrown at me: http://code.google.com/p/erlocaml/
<olegfink> nice
<olegfink> I wonder if it is theoretically possible to mix threads from different languages having some basic runtime (like, erlang and jocaml)
<alexyk> olegfink: BTW, was meaning to delve into jocaml over chanukkahxmas; does it do threads for real, and SMP too?
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<olegfink> I have never reall touched jocaml, but from what I understood it does concurrent things as well as distributed, so I guess the answer is yes.
<olegfink> *really
<alexyk> i saw some guy mention some guy heard jocaml can't do smp
<alexyk> and I want linear speedup on 8 cores
<alexyk> olegfink: same guy referring to the same other guy! :) but i don't "totally understand why" at all
<olegfink> at least everyone refers to non concurrent gc, but I have a vague understanding of how this is related
<paul424> please please help me
<olegfink> at least the indirectly referenced guy suggests using processes communicating via channels, and for me it seems like the way it was always done
<olegfink> paul424: mcompare is in module referenced by Key, so you should explicitly qualify it as Key.mcompare
<paul424> oh me so dumb
<alexyk> olegfink: that stinks so much, I'm reading Joe Armstrong today :)
<olegfink> yep, I should look into erlang at some point
<alexyk> pity it's all VM and each character is 2 ints, i.e. 8 to 16 BYTES
<alexyk> in a string
<olegfink> wow, they beat UTF-32
<alexyk> so bye-bye text processing or numerics
<alexyk> and you're left with Ruby :)
<alexyk> for interwebz
<alexyk> well I am getting Windows Vista to dual-boot on my MacBook and do F# threads... like Dr. Faustus
<olegfink> I have some mental defect which has the effect of making me unable to understand any dynamic language out there
<alexyk> olegfink: I did them all and am back to typed ones
<alexyk> but most time is spent coercing types, so I wonder if this purism is in fact a cult too
<alexyk> in fact i just like compiling things :)
<olegfink> sure it's a cult, but among more popular ones
<olegfink> by the way, isn't f# supposed to run under mono?
<alexyk> olegfink: mono suckz, threads are slow reportedly; it's slow for sure
<alexyk> I need concurrency for real research, not theory; a 12 hour compute vs 6 hours is a real difference
<olegfink> well, it is; what I didn't know is that microsoft's impementation was any faster.
<alexyk> olegfink: mfp mentioned mono being slow earlier today, I only used sequential and it looks slowosh
<alexyk> slow-ish
<alexyk> olegfink: I now have a theory while ocmal is better: compiled languages force one to save a script into a file, and with python/ruby it's easy to end up with scripts which worked only with a state in an interpreter; you have to save before you compile.
<alexyk> compiling is a stage inducing thinking and source control
<alexyk> when stuff compiles you can go to bed too :)
<alexyk> and leave running/debugging it till tomorrow
<olegfink> well, half the beginner questions on this channel are related to problems arising people tending to debug things in the toplevel
<alexyk> olegfink: I wish there'd be a command in toplevel, "drop state"
<olegfink> s/arising/& because of/
<alexyk> instead of exit/restart it
<alexyk> so you could ask, "did you reload your toplevel from scratch"?
<olegfink> alexyk: uhm, ^D<up><enter> isn't much more work than some command
<alexyk> olegfink: true, but you feel homeless for a second :)
<olegfink> I think ghci can re-read every file previously :loaded, don't know about state though.
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<mfp> <alexyk> anybody programmed a lot both in ocaml and erlang? is it easy to transition to erlang (when concurrency it needed)? -> using Erlang is pointless if you want parallelism for speed
<mfp> (and btw. OCaml threads *do* concurrency, it's parallelism that is lacking)
* mfp scanning the logs
<alexyk> mfp: right, I mean "real" concurrency; meaning "at the same physical time"... are you sure you can't get true speedup on say 32 cores? 512?
<mfp> <olegfink> at least the indirectly referenced guy suggests using processes communicating via channels, and for me it seems like the way it was always done -> JoCaml adds to that asynchronous channels (that can be remote or local) + join patterns to control that. Iow. JoCaml doesn't add anything to OCaml regarding parallelism (you still need processes), but it makes concurrency/parallelism easier to handle thanks to the join calculus.
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<alexyk> I know you beat the crap out of all erlangs with wide-finder though :)
<mfp> Erlang will give you a speedup, but it's so slow to begin with
<mfp> ...
<olegfink> mfp: aha, makes sense
<alexyk> mfp: well parsing apache logs is better done with compiled regexps for sure, the question is, is there a class of problems where erlang *will* be faster? like some webserver?
<mfp> what Erlang would do better is handling thousands of connections
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<mfp> but each request would be served slower than OCaml would do
<mfp> (assuming each req is processed serially)
<alexyk> mfp: essentially routing sms's, what it was made for
<mfp> thousands of *simultaneous* connections
<mfp> the one thing AFAIK Erlang is *really* bad at is string processing
<alexyk> mfp: so there's no progress for binary strings like in haskell?
<mfp> there are binary strings, but they're a PITA
<mfp> ugly syntax
<mfp> and I don't know if there's usual stuff like regexes over them
* alexyk wants to find reasons to love erlang still :)
* mfp bbl
* alexyk bbl too
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<palomer> bbl three
<palomer> so...
<palomer> how hard would it be to implement Haskell's Read using caml4p?
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<palomer> man, I wish deriving was extendable
<palomer> then I could derive Read !
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<paul424_> how to specify that a class uses the exceptions
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<paul424_> palomer: maybe you could help ...
<Yoric[DT]> palomer: afaik, Deriving *is* extendable.
* Yoric[DT] doesn't understand paul424_'s question but is way too busy to answer even if he did understand.
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<paul424_> Yoric[DT]: http://codepad.org/djUp3N4v heep what's wrong with this class TYpe ?
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<paul424_> grr as usual I left with my own program pitfalls
<paul424_> Yoric[DT]: I mean how to say that some method might rise some exception
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<paul424_> mpeter: could you help me ? how to say that some method in class might rise some exception ?
<Yoric[DT]> paul424_: you don't have to do anything.
<Yoric[DT]> Exceptions are not part of the type in OCaml.
<paul424_> yeap found at last that
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<paul424_> Yoric[DT]: how do you implement the ADS : abstract data structures , you allow to be some mutable functional structure within class and then you order methods to operate on them, yes ?
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<Yoric[DT]> Sorry, I really don't understand your question.
<Yoric[DT]> I have the feeling that you're just starting OCaml and that you're starting it on the wrong foot, too.
<Yoric[DT]> Typically, in OCaml, for abstract data types, you don't use classes at all.
<paul424_> well the thing I have the assigment, and I have to do it in some way.
<paul424_> No I have little knowledge on functional languages, althought the idea of classes in ocaml seems to be a bit dimmy for me
<paul424_> ok thanks