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<Yoric[DT]>
Hi
<julm>
_o/
<Camarade_Tux>
morning :)
<gildor_>
hi all
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<thelema>
Camarade_Tux: do you have any experience making win32 installers?
<Camarade_Tux>
thelema: some but not much, if you're looking for a nice installer, you should probably try NSIS
<thelema>
I know a lot of open source projects use NSIS, that's a good recommendation
<Camarade_Tux>
it's open-source itself I think
* thelema
is thinking on community ocaml being necessary for windows
<thelema>
one install for everything
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<Camarade_Tux>
well, that's one of the reasons I'm currently doing my package manager
<Camarade_Tux>
but ocaml-mingw-maxi was probably nice too
* Camarade_Tux
hates google
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<kaustuv>
Who do I have to waterboard to get some more recent ocaml releases in cygwin?
<Camarade_Tux>
kaustuv: I've been wondering the same thing but most things in cygwin are oooold
<Camarade_Tux>
kaustuv: what versions of gtk/glib are available?
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<Camarade_Tux>
any small module/lib/anything that can parse command-lines, like `cp "My Documents" b' would be parsed properly with regard to the space in "My Documents"?
<thelema>
it's different in windows and linux
<thelema>
under windows, your app gets the command line as a string, and you have to split it into args
<thelema>
in linux, you get a pre-split array
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<Camarade_Tux>
thelema: I've always written 'int main(int argc, char* argv[])', no matter the platform but that main, not WinMain
<Camarade_Tux>
but I'm doing it the other way round, I'm calling an app
<thelema>
if you're using a unix-like system(), you get to provide an argv
<thelema>
if you're providing a string, it's complicated.
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<Camarade_Tux>
maybe I can manage without that, I'll try to avoid needing that first
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<Camarade_Tux>
regarding the messages on the mailing-list, I think creating a livecd isn't a very good idea, it's a very good technology demo but it's very rigid and not very handy (add files to it?)
<Camarade_Tux>
a virtual disk however... :)
<Camarade_Tux>
(plus you don't have to deal with drivers)
* thelema
doesn't see the use of a livecd
<thelema>
and virtual PCs aren't that common, are they?
<Camarade_Tux>
virtualbox on windows installs very easily
<Camarade_Tux>
faster than burning a disk ;)
<Camarade_Tux>
but a livecd is just bundling everything in a package that works and that everyone can use no matter the OS, for students it can be very useful
<hcarty>
I think a virtual image (for virtualbox, as Camarade_Tux suggests) would be useful in the longer term.
<hcarty>
I'm not sure where it could be hosted. But it should be easier to keep up to date than an ISO.
<Camarade_Tux>
can host it
<hcarty>
Problem solved :-)
<hcarty>
If I get a few hours to play around with it then I may give it a shot, just as a proof of concept. Not sure if/when I will have the opportunity though.
<Camarade_Tux>
I made a livecd nearly two years ago and I really think a virual disk image it a better solution, a good livecd is too hard compared to that
<hcarty>
Probably running either Debian or Ubuntu, and 32bit to maximize compatibility.
<Camarade_Tux>
(I never completed it because I lacked time, not because it was too difficult, but had I done a virtual disk, I had probably finished it)
<Camarade_Tux>
32bit definitely
<Camarade_Tux>
and we can probably have it hosted by a few uni (lip6.fr which is where PPS is)
<thelema>
Camarade_Tux: why 32-bit?
<hcarty>
ocamlcore may host as well
<thelema>
32-bit hosts can't host a 64-bit virtualbox?
<hcarty>
thelema: I think virtualbox on supports 64bit guests on 64bit hosts.
<Camarade_Tux>
lately I've been thinking about such a virtual machine disk, it could provide several niceties such as cross-compilers to windows ;)
<thelema>
ok.
<Camarade_Tux>
thelema: nope, they can't
<thelema>
Camarade_Tux: yes, that would be a very nice
<hcarty>
I think qemu can, but it's not as quick or easy to setup on non-Linux systems as virtualbox
<Camarade_Tux>
actually only qemu really virtualizes nowadays and can host 64bit on 32bit hardware but it's slower
<hcarty>
A simplified Ubuntu desktop may be a good start. Provide OCaml + Batteries + (other libraries) + emacs + tuareg.
<hcarty>
Emacs tweaked to be simpler to get started with ... CUA mode perhaps.
<Camarade_Tux>
and it should be very easy to do :)
<hcarty>
Camarade_Tux: That's the hope :-)
<thelema>
optimizations to OS to start quickly
<hcarty>
thelema: Yes, definitely
<thelema>
drop tons of services
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<Camarade_Tux>
also, don't forget the doc on the desktop ;)
<hcarty>
Camarade_Tux: Good call :-)
<hcarty>
Yes, local docs are a must.
<Camarade_Tux>
I'm too non-slackware-disabled to do anything however
<Camarade_Tux>
btw, such a disk would compress a *lot* with 7z, like <25% (actually something like 15% is likely)
<hcarty>
Camarade_Tux: I think most of the customization will be in the appearance - make it REALLY obvious where everything is.
<hcarty>
Start with something like the moblin images :-)
<Camarade_Tux>
yeah, moblin's ui is impressive :)
<Camarade_Tux>
actually, ubuntu's first screen is terribly flawed
<Camarade_Tux>
I'm gonna try that (I'm on 64bit but I don't have the hypervisor)
<hcarty>
I think that the limitations of OCaml on 32bit are less important for general testing and evaluation of the language and libraries.
<hcarty>
There are certainly exceptions to that.
<hcarty>
But the expanded compatibility is likely a larger plus at this point.
<hcarty>
And thanks for the affection :-)
<Camarade_Tux>
hcarty: the reason is that despite being on 64bit, I can't have any 64bit machine, I've tried several VMs but never succeeded (qemu could but it doesn't support windows well)
<Camarade_Tux>
and that's a fantastic news, for me but also for a few other people ;)
<Camarade_Tux>
and that means I can run my win7 x64 installation (rc) while on linux which is gonna ease everything a *lot*
<hcarty>
I should probably re-install a Win7 RC VM for testing as well.
<hcarty>
It's too bad OSX can't be (easily?) run under a VM. My advisor is a Mac person and I'd like to be able to hand off binaries for him to use.
<hcarty>
I'm building ocamlnat now. Hopefully making the two play nicely together won't be overly difficult.
<hcarty>
Then hopefully I can get a native-code version of the lablgtk2 toplevel.
<Camarade_Tux>
also, I checked if ocamlfind had 'ocamlopt.opt' in it, seems not
<Camarade_Tux>
any special motivation for a native lablgtk2 toplevel?
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<hcarty>
I have some data analysis I'm working on, where it would be very nice to have the flexibility of the toplevel, speed of execution of native code, and a threaded GUI.
<hcarty>
The labltk2 toplevel conditions may be easily reproducible under a vanilla toplevel though, so that's further down the list.
<hcarty>
findlib support is my main concern.
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<Camarade_Tux>
yeah, a native toplevel would be really nice for that :)
<hcarty>
Compilation is thankfully quite quick with OCaml. But a toplevel would be even nicer during development.
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<hcarty>
There is apparently some issue with the Toploop module, at least with my build. ">> Fatal error: Opttoploop.dll_run /tmp/camlTOP432aa8b.so: undefined symbol: camlToploop"
<hcarty>
This happens whenever I try to do anything with the Toploop module.
<Camarade_Tux>
using ocamlnat and not trying with ocamlfind?
<hcarty>
Yes
<hcarty>
Which, interestingly enough, is exactly the same error "#use "topfind";;" gave in a separate ocamlnat session.
<hcarty>
In both cases, the toplevel dies and boots me back to the command line.
<Camarade_Tux>
I found 0 reference to camltoploop on google unfortunately
<hcarty>
I'm wondering if I missed something in the build
<Camarade_Tux>
the bug-tracker seems to have 0 bug about ocamlnat, I'm wondering if anyone is really using it right now
<Camarade_Tux>
is that 3.11.0 or 3.11.1?
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<hcarty>
Camarade_Tux: 3.11.1
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<hcarty>
I don't think people really are. It's labeled as experimental and unsupported.
<Camarade_Tux>
hcarty: you might want to try with 3.11.0, I remember that Harrop used ocamlnat successfully
<Camarade_Tux>
and not compiled by default :p
<hcarty>
That's true - he spoke/wrote several messages about it.
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<hcarty>
I reported a bug on mantis. Hopefully it will be addressed.
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<kaustuv>
ocamlnat is completely experimental and not meant for serious use
<hcarty>
kaustuv: Indeed. I was hoping for a bit more from it, but it appears that it needs a lot more love before it's a reasonable ocaml replacement.
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<Alpounet>
the poll about why batteries isn't used is interesting
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<Alpounet>
we should have done that before :/
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<bluestorm>
hm
<bluestorm>
I wonder why nobody has replied my time-consuming email of last night :-'
<Alpounet>
too long ? :-p
<Alpounet>
I've read it, quickly, but I was at work, I'll take more time now, but my opinion isn't very important here.
<bluestorm>
ok
<Anarchos>
bluestorm what about ?
<Alpounet>
Anarchos, making batteries' installation and usage easier.
<Alpounet>
bluestorm, for the installation, what about a ready-to-execute install script, which would take care of checking all dependencies, installing the missing stuffs, compiling and installing batteries.
<Alpounet>
that, for Linux & Mac
<Alpounet>
for Windows, I might do a setup program, graphical etc, asking where OCaml is installed, etc.
<Alpounet>
s/do/write
<Camarade_Tux>
that means you don't have a package manager that handles dependencies which is hard to find on linux (even I use godi for that)
<Alpounet>
OTOH, if you want to use the package manager, just use it (to install batteries)
<Alpounet>
that's for the other cases.
<bluestorm>
it's really not trivial to do what you suggest in a truly portable way
<Alpounet>
it'd need distro specific stuffs yeah...
<Camarade_Tux>
hmmm, right, I stopped trying to install ocaml and its libs by myself but that doesn't mean some people aren't masochistic :)
<Alpounet>
hmm
<Alpounet>
for true beginners, we could even provide a complete setup : ocaml + batteries dependencies + batteries itself.
<Alpounet>
that'd be a good thing IMO.
<Camarade_Tux>
well, going to bed, good night :)
<Alpounet>
gn Camarade_Tux
<Alpounet>
bluestorm, what do you think of that ?
<bluestorm>
well
<Alpounet>
yes ? :-)
<bluestorm>
Alpounet: our ability to do that strongly depends on the dependencies we have
<Alpounet>
That's to say ?
<bluestorm>
for example, if there is non-ocaml among our dependencies, it's almost impossible to do that without using the (non-portable) os facilities
<bluestorm>
non-ocaml software
<bluestorm>
(if, for example, we were to depend on SQLite)
<bluestorm>
wich comes down to the "pains" i mentioned in my post
<bluestorm>
but yes
<bluestorm>
a pack such as you suggest is the idea of a "community distribution" that was invoked a few years ago and is still alive
<bluestorm>
I'm not sure it's really reasonable to plan on building something like that while we aren't sure yet what should be included in Batteries
<bluestorm>
(but your Windows packaging skills will certainly come handy, good to know :p)
<Alpounet>
bluestorm, I don't have any special skill, but with Qt I can do that pretty quickly and easily.
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<Alpounet>
bluestorm, do you have Qt installed ?
<bluestorm>
hum
<bluestorm>
not currently but that would be easy (but I use GNU/Linux)
<Alpounet>
yes
<Alpounet>
I know
<Alpounet>
that's for showing you what the installer'd look like, as I see it.
<bluestorm>
oh
<Alpounet>
I'm workin' on it.
<bluestorm>
Alpounet: I won't stay late tonight
<Alpounet>
In the worst case, I'll email you the binary.
<bluestorm>
don't be afraid of posting your work on the mailing-list
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