Alpounet changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | 3.11.1 out now! Get yours from http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/release.html
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<c0m> all of those three list items seem to "pass"
<c0m> anyone disagree?
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<orbitz> what are you asking c0m ?
<c0m> the checklist
<c0m> does the code pass the checklist
<orbitz> your check list is a bit vague
<c0m> it is the instructors checklist
<orbitz> what is item 3?
<orbitz> what does it mean by "smaller values"?
<c0m> smaller-sized list
<c0m> or smaller number
<c0m> or smaller something
<orbitz> which is it?
<c0m> depends on the recursive function in question
<orbitz> well i'm pretty sure you want me to look at this one, so consider taht
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<c0m> it passes #3 because it takes the head off
<orbitz> which defintion of "smaller value" are you using?
<c0m> x1::x2::xs
<c0m> becomes x1::xs or x2::xs
<c0m> which is smaller
<c0m> for the recursive call
<c0m> i don't see anything else with respect to that number
<c0m> do you?
<orbitz> ok
<orbitz> you realize your sort does no twork right?
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<c0m> because of <= ? specifically the = part?
<orbitz> [1; 1; 1; 0]
<orbitz> how do you expect the 0 to get to the front?
<c0m> ahh
<c0m> it only looks ahead by one
<c0m> duh
<c0m> actually, thinking about the checklist
<c0m> that would mean #2 does not pass
<c0m> but if you think about it, it does return the correct value
<c0m> although it doesn't sort (which is the purpose of the function)
<orbitz> what algorithm are you implementing?
<c0m> not me
<c0m> instructor put it up
<c0m> that sort function
<orbitz> taht is his code?
<c0m> used as an exercise
<orbitz> k
<c0m> what do you think
<orbitz> what do I think of what?
<c0m> because the recursive call does return the correct value
<c0m> x1 <= x2 gets evaluated correctly
<orbitz> if the goal is to return a sorted list, it does not
<c0m> i know that
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<c0m> last one
<c0m> #2, same checklist
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<c0m> hmm
<c0m> i know
<c0m> err
<c0m> "clue that something is wrong" is because the inferred return type of mergesort is 'b list while the accepted type is 'a list
<c0m> but have trouble seeing what could be wrong according to that "checklist"
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<flux> is that caml light, not ocaml?
<flux> in any case, do you know how to write a function 'a -> 'b?
<orbitz> I don't think the checklist is about proving types c0m
<c0m> it is f#
<c0m> flux: unfortunately no :(
<c0m> well maybe .. just do some kind of translation of a variable and it should infer a different type, right?
<orbitz> c0m: you might want to learn first then
<c0m> actually, nvm
<c0m> may you help me understand how to infer a different type than specified
<c0m> please?
<orbitz> what?
<c0m> either of you
<orbitz> i do not understand your question
<c0m> how do you write a function that takes 'a yet gives 'b
<c0m> maybe you could give me clues instead of just telling me the answer
<orbitz> look at map
<orbitz> what is the type of map?
<c0m> map ..
<c0m> List.map?
<c0m> 't -> 'u
<orbitz> try again
<c0m> 't list to 'u list
<orbitz> try again
<c0m> list.map, right?
<orbitz> yes
<c0m> ('t -> 'u) -> 't list -> 'u list
<orbitz> there you go
<c0m> a function that takes 't and return 'u which is a list of type 't and then returns a list of type 'u
<orbitz> so if you can figure out how to use map you have figure dout how to write a function 'a -> 'b
<orbitz> assuming that is what flux meant
<c0m> i know how to use map
<c0m> but have trouble seeing the type situation
<orbitz> what type situation?
<c0m> just the types
<orbitz> coudl you be more specific?
<c0m> ('t -> 'u) -> 't list -> 'u list
<c0m> i know what it means
<c0m> but no idea what it means
<c0m> if that makes sense
<orbitz> it doesn't
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<c0m> ok can you tellm e what that means
<c0m> please
<c0m> map takes a function with a param 't and returns a 't list of 'u types
<c0m> ?
<orbitz> how many arguments does map take?
<c0m> 2
<c0m> a function and a variable
<orbitz> "a variable"?
<c0m> a 't list
<orbitz> wnad what does the function do?
<c0m> whatever it does
<c0m> whatever function you call
<c0m> that's why it is a polymorphic type
<c0m> because it could be a range of functions
<orbitz> sounds like you understand map then
<c0m> well sure
<c0m> but if i really understood then i'd be able to answer #2 and #3
<c0m> but am stuck
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<orbitz> what types are inferred
<c0m> val merge : 'a list * 'a list -> 'a list
<c0m> val split : 'a list -> 'a list * 'a list
<c0m> val mergesort : 'a list -> 'b list
<orbitz> why would mergesort have a type of 'a list -> 'b list?
<c0m> not sure, even in accordance with your previous question of map ... don't see it
<orbitz> why would sorting something change its type?
<c0m> maybe because when comparing, it depends on how it is compared?
<c0m> or when moving items around, a type change may happen
<c0m> why, not entirely sure
<orbitz> the type of List.sort is
<orbitz> val sort : ('a -> 'a -> int) -> 'a list -> 'a list
<c0m> well, though, mergesort splits and merges items together
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<c0m> so during that process it is possible to change?
<orbitz> What are you asking me?
<orbitz> question 1 says "identify what is wrong with merge sort", based on looking at the types
<orbitz> sorting should not chagne types
<c0m> i know what is wrong
<c0m> the type change, yes
<orbitz> thus, somethign is funky if F# thinks it's turning an 'a to a 'b
<c0m> but why, not sure
<c0m> why with respect to the code
<c0m> btw, thanks for your help and time... i very much appreciate it
<flux> c0m, a function 'a -> 'b in ocaml: let rec foo a = foo a
<orbitz> does F# not require 'in', in lets?
<thelema_> c0m: it splits and merges items or lists?
<c0m> no, you can use in for let
<c0m> require, no
<c0m> they have different meanings (obviously)
<orbitz> ugh, also allows varaibles to start with capital letters?
<c0m> if in is missing
<c0m> thelema_: lists
<thelema_> c0m: and the returned list should be a list of the same things as the input list?
<c0m> flux: that function wouldn't work because it'd be infinitely called
<c0m> thelema_: exactly but i don't see where in the code the cause of the type change is happening
<flux> c0m, indeed!
<thelema_> c0m: what code?
<orbitz> c0m: you can still define it though
<flux> c0m, now think how it applies to your problem.. :)
<c0m> flux: how he infinite recursion affects this?
<c0m> *the
<c0m> oh wait
<c0m> during merge
<orbitz> c0m: you are looking for the wrong pattern
<orbitz> it's not infinite recursion you are seeking
<c0m> it could be a string and an int
<c0m> well
<c0m> "test" and "5"
<orbitz> huh?
<c0m> err
<flux> c0m, think what happens, step by step, if you give list ['a'] as the argument to mergesort
<c0m> flux: sorts it
<c0m> value by value
<flux> c0m, really? how?
<c0m> persey
<flux> (I assume finding out what happens when you give it [])
<c0m> *persay
<c0m> gives back p[
<c0m> * []
<flux> so after let (m, n) .., what are contents of m and n?
<flux> I doubt you're really trying ;)
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<c0m> i am but i just don't get it ;[
<flux> well, answer that question then
<c0m> m and n are split l and merge (mergesort m, mergesort n) .. repsectively
<flux> so m is.. exactly what? if l is ['a']?
<c0m> split L
<c0m> or ['a'] and []
<flux> ok
<flux> so what is mergesort ['a'] then?
<c0m> ['a'] and []
<c0m> and [] is of type unit
<c0m> ?
<flux> whaat?
<c0m> scratch that
<c0m> so ['a'] and [] but so what?
<c0m> oh wait
<c0m> you started out with ['a'] and ended up with ['a'];[]
<flux> I think you're onto something here..
<c0m> well i don't see what else there is after that
<c0m> or
<flux> what do you mean by ['a'];[] anyway?
<c0m> if you have [], you end up with []p]
<c0m> err, [][]
<flux> m is ['a'] and n is []
<flux> it calls plain mergesort ['a'] (AND mergesort []), I don't see any ['a'];[] anywhere.
<c0m> err, nvm, base case of mergesort handles [] as a param
<flux> so it calls mergesort ['a'] in the function
<flux> remember though, that we were originally evaluating mergesort ['a']
<flux> so if evaluating mergesort ['a'] requires evaluating mergesort ['a']..
* c0m is thinking
<orbitz> wait fo rit...
<orbitz> waait for it....
<c0m> infinite loop?
<orbitz> c0m: why don't you perform an experiment to find out
<c0m> fucking brilliant.
<c0m> mergesort [5;2;4;1]
<orbitz> c0m: why not just try the testcase flux just mentioned?
<c0m> error FS0030: Value restriction. The value 'it' has been inferred to have generic type val it : '_a list Either define 'it' as a simple data term, make it a function with explicit arguments or, if you do not intend for it to be generic, add a type annotation.
<flux> hm, F# is funny
<flux> so basically you can't run that function?-o
<flux> although you can define it
<orbitz> Hrm, i hd heard F#'s type system was a bit broken, but I din't realize like this
<c0m> so what do you recommend
<orbitz> if you just solve it you should fix your problem
<orbitz> otherwise you can try to prove it by adding a type annotation
<c0m> basically if i do ['a']
<c0m> it will try to merge ['a'] and []
<flux> really?
<flux> that would be the case if you called merge (m, n) - but you don't
<c0m> well it calls merge (mergesort M, mergesort N)
<orbitz> so mergesort [1] will try to do merge (mergesort [1], mergesort [])
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<c0m> yes
<orbitz> this looks like flux's previous example of let rec f a = f a
<c0m> because [1] gets split into [1] and []
<c0m> according to the code
<c0m> and then merge them together, just becomes 1 again
<c0m> it seems
<c0m> err, oh wait
<c0m> yeah
<c0m> i got it
<orbitz> how would it ever merge them togther?, that becoems merge (merge (mergesort [1], mergesort []), [])
<c0m> to fix it, need to add another pattern to mergesort
<orbitz> hot
<c0m> | [x] -> [x]
<c0m> done
* c0m thinks
<c0m> fucking awesome.
<c0m> you guys rule
<c0m> that you for all of your time .. and for not telling me the answer and helping me understand this
<c0m> all of you
<flux> happy to help. may the lambda be with you!
<c0m> and also with you!
<orbitz> why can't math peepz choose something other than lambda
<flux> :)
<orbitz> functional programming would be way cooler if it were omega calculus, everyone seems to be goign the FP route anyways, so it seems like the end of the road as is!
<c0m> nah
<c0m> everyone isn't going the functional programming route
<c0m> neither are languages
<orbitz> sure they are
<c0m> but traditionally imperative languages are including functional programming characteristics
<c0m> just to jump on the bandwagon
<orbitz> naw, it's more than bandwagon thing
<orbitz> the peopel who are getting those FP ideas into those mainstream languages are really FP people
<orbitz> like Meijer
<c0m> what do you define as functional programming ideas
<c0m> first-class functions, anonymous functions?
<c0m> more use of recursion?
<orbitz> first class functions, LINQ
<orbitz> closures
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<orbitz> type inferencing
<c0m> closure is just scope
<c0m> just with a different name
<c0m> err, wait a minute
<c0m> yeah, just scope
<orbitz> it's a type fo scope
<orbitz> it's only really useful if you ahve first class functions
<c0m> i don't see what the big fuss is about over FCFs
<c0m> however that could be a naive thing to say even though i've been programming for 10 years or so
<orbitz> they remove a lot of boiler plate code
<c0m> type inference is an ok idea too
<c0m> yeah it removes the need for strict typing
<orbitz> hrm?
<c0m> but sometimes it is confusing
<orbitz> HM type systems tend to be stricter
<c0m> sure but sometimes it could be ambiguous just when looking at the code
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<orbitz> I don't follow
<c0m> meaning private int num = 5;
<c0m> let num = 5
<c0m> obviously num is an int in both cases
<c0m> but sometimes with huge lines of code and many things going on and variables that are derived of other variables ... it is sometimes difficult to quickly understand the meaning/type/etc of a variable
<c0m> so sometimes it pays to be more verbose
<c0m> rather than striving for conciseness
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<orbitz> keeping functions short is a good way around that
<flux> I sometimes - in some cases even often - annotate function types
<c0m> sure
<c0m> that's good
<flux> I might possibly annotate object's attribute type also
<c0m> but the instructor is so pedantic
<orbitz> I do it pretty often in Haskell
<c0m> he's like, never use annotations
<orbitz> but with typeclasses erro rmesages become unmanagable without
<c0m> always do it this way and that way
<flux> in any case your editor (atleast in ocaml) is able to give you back the types, I assume this is the case in F# also
<c0m> but it sometimes seems impractical
<orbitz> IMO, Ocaml types tend to stay so simple annotations don't necessairly help *that* much. but flux probaly has much more experience than I do
<orbitz> c0m: hvae you worked in a language with HM type system before? I think som eof what you are feeling will subside once you get used to the type system
<c0m> hm?
<orbitz> hindley milner
<flux> orbitz, the thing is that if I start by first writing the interface, I just copy the interface to the implementation and continue on that
<flux> so the types go along 'automatically' in that case
<orbitz> flux: so yo write a signature first?
<flux> orbitz, sometimes
<orbitz> flux: that makes more sense then. most of what i have written tends t obe replacemetn sfo rpython scripts where I'm not making use of the module system
<flux> perhaps more likely if I'm not sure what I need. sort of designing the module in the interface.
<c0m> i speak, though, w/o fluently writing in a language that uses type inference
<c0m> so i could be a bit naive in speaking about that
<flux> and then just copying it over to the implementation side and putting failwith "not implemented" as the implementation
<orbitz> c0m: yeah, that's what I'm saying. I think a lot of what you are feeling now will subside once you get used to work in HM type system more
<orbitz> although F# might not be the best place for that since it's a bit retarded
<c0m> but some languages i use more fluently dont explicitly require type either
<c0m> like php
<orbitz> that is quite different though
<c0m> yeah, it isn't strict in nature
<orbitz> i think you are looking for strong/static
<orbitz> rather than strict
<c0m> gah
<c0m> love to chat some more but i need to run
<c0m> thanks again all for the help!
<c0m> i'll be idling since you guys are cool dudes
<c0m> :P
<c0m> .o/
<c0m> see ya
<c0m> wave ^
<c0m> something to leave you guys with
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<Camarade_Tux> morning
<flux> goood morning!
<flux> and that concludes the discussions about this morning.
<Camarade_Tux> he ^^
<Camarade_Tux> today I'm trying obus :)
<flux> obus?
<Camarade_Tux> (right after my breakfast :) )
<Camarade_Tux> ocaml implementation of dbus
<flux> ah
<Camarade_Tux> hit 1.0rc1 two days ago (had been 0.1 for a year before that)
<Camarade_Tux> (actually there had been 0.3 and 0.2 before that)
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<flux> so, does it work? or is that the point of this exersice?
<Camarade_Tux> I'm going to see ;-)
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<Camarade_Tux> (although I may use dbus-glib in the end since I'll need an event loop and don't want to write [ while true ... done ])
<Camarade_Tux> bah, I don't have darcs
<Camarade_Tux> (and I have to compile it to get it)
<flux> man, that sucks, do you need to compile ghc first?-)
<Camarade_Tux> and since ghc doesn't bootstrap nicely...
<Camarade_Tux> flux: exactly
<flux> which platform?
<Camarade_Tux> x86_64, I have http://slackbuilds.org/repository/13.0/development/ghc/, but I boycott ghc because of this -_-
<Camarade_Tux> (and mlton, ah, that was funny to try...)
<Camarade_Tux> last time I needed to get something from darcs, I just used wget
<flux> can't do it this time too?
<Camarade_Tux> sure, it's already downloading :)
<Camarade_Tux> well, it's probably pretty inefficient too
<gildor> Camarade_Tux: if darcs is not used with checkpoint, it is exactly the same thing
<Camarade_Tux> gildor: OUCH!
<gildor> Camarade_Tux: but if you want 100% efficiency, ssh to forge.ocamlcore.org
<gildor> and darcs export /darcsroot/obus/obus/
<Camarade_Tux> gildor: I'll remember that next time, it shouldn't take too long now (I hope)
<Camarade_Tux> I might do it in parallel actually
<Camarade_Tux> gildor: hmmm, darcs failed: No such command 'export'
<gildor> better something like darcs dist
<gildor> Camarade_Tux: you can do a "darcs get /darcsroot/obus/obus/"
<gildor> Camarade_Tux: cd obus
<gildor> Camarade_Tux: darcs dist
<gildor> and download the tarball generated
<Camarade_Tux> I thought I couldn't cd there so I just used tar :p
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<Camarade_Tux> and wget just finished
<gildor> cd obus will be somewhere like /home/Camarade_Tux/obus
<Camarade_Tux> (my connection is crappy)
<Camarade_Tux> gildor: oh yeah, I had missed the line where you said "darcs get", makes more sense now ;)
<gildor> bah, this is for next time
<Camarade_Tux> I probably won't forget, 13 minutes is long enough
<gildor> is your connection so much crappy or ocamlcore.org has a problem ?
<Camarade_Tux> gildor: "Neuf WiFi" right now, I don't even know where the routers are
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<Camarade_Tux> definitely the connection
<gildor> .... is this YOUR connection ;-)
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<Camarade_Tux> I just moved in ;-)
<Camarade_Tux> I wanted to go for optic fiber but the building is not connected ='(
<gildor> and they don't protect their wifi network... I just cannot understand
<Camarade_Tux> no, that's "Neuf Wifi" and "FreeWifi", it's a free "service", you allow people to connect to these networks from your box and you can connect to them from theirs
<gildor> ah ok
<Camarade_Tux> (provided you are a neuf or free customer, or have a dns tunnel [ which I don't have right now ;) ] )
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<Camarade_Tux> crap, obus needs lwt 1.2.0 and godi only has 1.1.0
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<Camarade_Tux> errr, not 1.2.0, 2.0.0
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<Camarade_Tux> and lwt depends on react through findlib but react doesn't install with ocamlfind, time to steal some META file
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<Camarade_Tux> or time to write it myself
<mfp> (Debian's)
<Camarade_Tux> strange, I missed it
<Camarade_Tux> thanks
<Camarade_Tux> ok, it was there actually (/me hides)
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<Camarade_Tux> why would ocamlfind tell me : "Installed /ocaml/lib/ocaml/site-lib/react/META"
<Camarade_Tux> and
<Camarade_Tux> ocamlfind query react
<Camarade_Tux> /ocaml/lib/ocaml/std-lib/react
<Camarade_Tux> ?
<Camarade_Tux> I love ocamlfind but that is a bit annoying
<Camarade_Tux> cp solved that problem...
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<flux> camarade_tux, godi?
<flux> because I think it mixes things up a bit
<Camarade_Tux> flux: yeah, godi
<Camarade_Tux> someone here made a comment about how it was almost impossible to install an ocaml package that didn't come from godi once you were using godi, I didn't understand ... at first =/
<Camarade_Tux> anyway, it seems obus doesn't want lwt 2.0.0+rc1's api which means I can't compile it
<flux> well, you get points for trying
<Camarade_Tux> ;p
<Camarade_Tux> I may package daniel bunzli's libraries for godi
<Camarade_Tux> he doesn't use ocamlfin but he provides a META file :)
<thelema_> yay, I have aaa-batteries compiling, and the tests running again. Now back to more architectural cleanup
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<Camarade_Tux> cool, the first function I have to use for "labldbus" is one that can't be bound automatically since it has an out-parameter (GError**) :)
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<kaustuv_> What is the omake invocation equivalent to make distclean?
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<Camarade_Tux> yeah, kernel-headers are required for regular compilation (php for instance) [ follow-up for something months old ]
<hcarty> Camarade_Tux: I use lots of non-GODI libraries with GODI, including React, and I haven't had any trouble with ocamlfind looking in the right place. Is it possible something got mixed up in the installation?
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* thelema_ is able to dogfood aaa-batteries again
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<thelema> now I probably need someone to test it...
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<hcarty> thelema: Does it work alongside Batteries?
<thelema> It's not nearly as monolithic as it was, although there's a compatibility layer to allow the nice "open Batteries" effect.
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<thelema_> it should work alongside batteries - it installs as a separate findlib package - 'aaa'
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<hcarty> thelema_: I'm happy to test it out, though it will likely be a few days before I get a chance.
<hcarty> My hope is still for success on the monolithic Batteries front though. I think that its improvements to OCaml are very important.
<Camarade_Tux> hcarty: I haven't changed anything, but I think I have one other package that is non-godi and has no problem, so pretty weird (and I haven't spent much time on that)
<Camarade_Tux> (since that was for obus, I went back to ocaml-gir/dbus-glib and improved a few things which will maybe give me the functions I need by tonight [that is if I get home early enough])
* thelema_ hopes AAA leads to 1) better structure for (non-aaa) Batteries and 2) more flexible install for Batteries
<thelema_> the improved structure directly leading to easier absorption of other libraries
<thelema_> other stdlib replacements
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<hcarty> thelema_: I hope that happens too. There are some very good ideas for restructuring Batteries on the list. I hope to be able to contribute to that effort soon.
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<thelema_> I welcome your support
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