<thelema>
well, it's a bit technical, but you're not working at the level of any particular value of x or y, your values are the polynomials x^2 and y^3
<thelema>
does it make sense to have a lattice of polynomials?
<c0m_>
not seemingly
<thelema>
ok, think about making substitutions for x in x^2 - what polynomials can you get?
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<c0m_>
anything
<c0m_>
if x is t^2
<c0m_>
then (t^2)^2
<c0m_>
err polynomial you said
<c0m_>
err
<thelema>
not quite anything. You can't get x^3 by substituting a polynomial in for X in X^2
<thelema>
I see. Then polynomial unification doesn't help you at all.
<thelema>
does the W example make sense?
<c0m_>
seems so
<c0m_>
if you have an if statement, recursively iterate over the string to determine if it is well typed
<c0m_>
by doing unifications of substitutions
<c0m_>
but trying to understand the unification more
<thelema>
It looks like your instructor has written almost all the code for you.
<c0m_>
for IF he has
<c0m_>
we have to do it for the rest
<thelema>
he's written unify, newtypevar, typ2str...
<thelema>
code for substitutions and environments
<c0m_>
yeah he started us off
<c0m_>
are you doing cs at msu ?
<c0m_>
bs, ms, or phd?
<thelema>
yes, phd
<c0m_>
got a thesis yet?
<thelema>
nope, just started this semester
<c0m_>
you get a stipend?
<c0m_>
was your masters in cs ? what was your thesis?
<thelema>
yes, am on fellowship
<thelema>
no masters, going right from BS to PhD
<c0m_>
orly
<c0m_>
never seen/heard of that
<c0m_>
i've seen, however, the 4+1 type programs
<c0m_>
where you get a bs and ms
<thelema>
nope.
<thelema>
just BS + PhD
<thelema>
well, and BA. (I got both in undergrad)
<c0m_>
what fields
<c0m_>
cs and what else
<thelema>
Math
<c0m_>
nice
<c0m_>
i've been getting interest into math lately
<c0m_>
specifically applied statistics
<c0m_>
also theoretical physics
<c0m_>
but was only an idea
<thelema>
I'll be doing machine learning next semester - I expect to have plenty of applied statistics
<c0m_>
nice
<c0m_>
i've honestly lost interest in cs
<c0m_>
i mean i love to program
<c0m_>
but in terms of a lot theoretical stuff
<c0m_>
i'm not sure
<thelema>
The theory isn't for everyone.
<c0m_>
i have a semester and one summer session left before i graduate
<c0m_>
thinking of doing a masters if i get my grades up
<c0m_>
maybe one in business and one in information technology
<thelema>
masters is expensive
<c0m_>
not because it is easier but because it is a more managerial based background
<c0m_>
while masters in cs is more research oriented
<c0m_>
and i love research
<c0m_>
but for some reason not as much in cs
<c0m_>
who knows, ever since going back to school i've been doing a lot of thinking :D
<c0m_>
in-state tuition is reasonable
<thelema>
theoretical cs is mostly math.
<c0m_>
yeah
<c0m_>
but masters in cs is mostly theoretical, right?
<c0m_>
that's what i was saying
<thelema>
depends on what you specialize in. If you're just going to be a programmer, why do you need a masters?
<c0m_>
i dont
<c0m_>
also i don't want to be a programmer
<c0m_>
i've been a programmer for 10 years
<c0m_>
i love to program
<c0m_>
but looking for something more
<c0m_>
maybe managerial
<c0m_>
also looking maybe for masters so i can get funding
<thelema>
sounds like you're stuck going into IT
<c0m_>
i've built out a substantial idea and to get it to the next level need funding
<c0m_>
having a degree or more than 1 gives my background more credibility and legitimacy
<c0m_>
and makes the investors a bit more comfortable that their money isn't going to some schmuck
<thelema>
only for people who haven't done anything yet. Have you done nothing in your 10 years?
<c0m_>
also, though, senior level partner at some company would require some academic background
<c0m_>
at least for the "checklist" when applying for jobs
<c0m_>
what do you mean "have you done nothing in your 10 years"
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<c0m_>
i've been employed in the corporate world for about 7 years or so and owned my own enterprise level development and consulting company for about 5
<c0m_>
and a few more years in the corporate world but not in tech
<c0m_>
but, still, during that time i was programming on my own
<thelema>
and you programmed nothing of consequence in that time?
<c0m_>
of course i have
<c0m_>
what is your underlying question?
<c0m_>
why am i going to school if i have all that experience?
<thelema>
why do you think you can't show your experience through your accomplishments?
<c0m_>
i know i can
<c0m_>
but still sometimes it is not enough
<c0m_>
some people and some companies have a checklist that says "has degree"
<c0m_>
if not, regardless of experience, you aren't considered
<c0m_>
not only for the aforementioned reasons but i'm settling down now too so having the piece of paper (degree) is just an extra layer of safety
<thelema>
then you can't work for any of those companies. And you probably wouldn't want to.
<thelema>
do you read news.ycombinator.com?
<c0m_>
no but i know ycombinator startups have high chance of receiving funding
<c0m_>
also having the degrees allow me to negotiate higher salary
<c0m_>
and higher positions
<c0m_>
do you get an office now too?
<c0m_>
since you started the phd program
<thelema>
I have a nice corner of a lab, with a couple desks and chairs.
<c0m_>
hehe
<thelema>
I dunno any university where grad students get offices.
<thelema>
We have a postDoc who's lucky to have an office, and that's only because a professor that likes him isn't using his office.
<c0m_>
physics phd seeker i know at the school i go to has an office
<thelema>
all to himself?
<c0m_>
yup
<c0m_>
allegedly
<thelema>
lucky him.
<thelema>
ah, you've not seen it.
<c0m_>
but i think so
<c0m_>
"come by my office room <blah>"
<c0m_>
"you have your own office?" "yeah"
<c0m_>
so...
<thelema>
I could call my space in my lab my "office"
<c0m_>
are there any specific rules for having to be on campus?
<thelema>
not that anyone told me.
<c0m_>
like i know for teachers, they have to be in school to teach (obviously) and office hours to help students
<c0m_>
but other than that, i think they can go home if they want
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<thelema>
nope, it's recommended that I show up for classes, but if I do good research, I can do it anywhere
<c0m_>
so if they teach two classes, one hour each a day, and have one hour of office hours, they only need to "work" for 3 hours
<thelema>
In theory. In practice, they spend a lot of time in meetings with other teachers or with students
<c0m_>
the research you must do is independent study with advisor?
<c0m_>
... generally ...
<thelema>
yes
<c0m_>
hmm
<c0m_>
and if you make some groundbreaking discovery that if it were in the business world, you'd patent .. but if yo umake some discovery .. it is credited to the school
<c0m_>
and your name
<c0m_>
with your advisor listed as doctoral advisor
<thelema>
if I was working for a company, they'd own the patent
<c0m_>
right
<c0m_>
but if it were your business, you would
<thelema>
as far as MSU is concerned, there's only so much that they can patent - they only patent things that are evaluated to be potentially valuable.
<thelema>
I don't really know the IP policy, and never signed over the rights to my ideas to MSU (as far as I know)
<thelema>
but I plan on putting into the public domain as much of my research as possible.
<c0m_>
what is the max you can take to finish your phd?
<thelema>
My fellowship covers 5 years
<c0m_>
given you show continued and progressive research .. right
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<alp_>
thelema, how's MSU btw ?
<thelema>
Grad school is great for me. MSU as a university - I don't have much to compare with. It's a much larger school than my undergrad
<thelema>
but at the same time, the CS dept is not a major component of the school, so...
<alp_>
'cause I'm strongly willing to find a Ph.D in an American university
<thelema>
There's some good profs, and some not so good ones, and I'll do my best to avoid the not so good ones.
<alp_>
thus looking here and there which ones seem good, etc
<thelema>
I think there's mostly good profs in CS
<thelema>
MSU is lke 26th in terms of top CS programs
<alp_>
ok
<alp_>
nice
<alp_>
expensive, I guess, then ?
<thelema>
not for me - fellowship pays for all my costs and gives me a fair salary
<thelema>
Not as good as I was making outside academia, but good enough for me to live on
<alp_>
it'll be better after the Ph.D :)
<alp_>
right ?
<thelema>
yes
<alp_>
in France it's a shame
<alp_>
you may have heard about it via David
<thelema>
not much
<alp_>
well
<alp_>
in general, people getting a Ph.D starts their researcher career with something like 2.000€ per months
<alp_>
start*
<alp_>
month*
<thelema>
after having a PhD?
<alp_>
(tired, 4:31 AM here)
<alp_>
yeah
<alp_>
more if you're really good, with fundings from big companies of your field, etc
<thelema>
working in a university as a researcher.
<alp_>
yeah
<alp_>
in public research labs
<thelema>
private research labs?
<alp_>
it's much better there
<alp_>
R&D researchers get quite good salaries
<alp_>
I have a friend who did a Ph.D in signal processing / maths / C-S
<alp_>
more precisely about manifold learning
<alp_>
it was a great work
<alp_>
but since the guy is very good and wanted a decent salary
<alp_>
he went to Total
<alp_>
doing R&D stuffs
<thelema>
ok, so if I move to france, I won't work in a public research lab
<alp_>
whereas there are many, MANY "paths" to follow to discover some nice results
<alp_>
in his field, thank to his work
<alp_>
he told me that
<alp_>
he told me he would have loved to go on on these stuffs but that he was just motivated to do such works for something like 2000€ per month
<alp_>
after 8 years of college studies
<alp_>
so yeah, do some research about such matters before deciding to move to France :-p
<thelema>
so the lack of pay kept him from following other paths?
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<alp_>
thelema, yeah
<alp_>
he could have continued his Ph.D work as a researcher (post Ph.D I mean)
<alp_>
but rather chose to do some R&D for Total
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<thelema>
I wouldn't mind working a private research lab, I think.
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<alp_>
thelema, yeah, I think getting the salary we deserve is a key criterion for a job
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<thelema>
interesting. Salary is important to me, but the work I'm doing is much more important - I couldn't be paid $1E6/yr to do a horrible job
<alp_>
yeah yeah
<alp_>
but for research I think it's important to have decent salary
<alp_>
I mean most of the researchers deserve it !
<thelema>
maybe there's an amount of money I'd do any particular job for, but it'd be a *lot* for many jobs.
<thelema>
as to what people deserve - that's not quite so easy to say. If there's a lot of people wanting to do research, do they still "deserve" as much money as if there's only one?
<alp_>
clearly not
<thelema>
I guess I'd argue that if researchers want to trade their time and energy for little money, they're free to do so.
<alp_>
yeah
<alp_>
but when I saw the average salaries for researchers abroad
<alp_>
I just got mad man
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<thelema>
your english seems fair - get a job abroad
<alp_>
I plan to leave France soon
<alp_>
don't worry ...
<alp_>
I'm still an undergrad student but I'll do it, definitely.
<thelema>
I wish you luck. And I wish you sleep, with your apparent insomnia.
<alp_>
hehe
<alp_>
passion leads to insomnia
<alp_>
I'll give a talk about functional programming soon
<alp_>
I need to prepare the slides :p
<thelema>
ah, passion for ocaml. great.
<thelema>
You and David - staying up all night to prepare slides for your presentation in the morning.
<thelema>
I just can't stay up all night ane be useful in the morning.
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<alp_>
thelema, hmm, David's talks definitely are more interesting
<alp_>
mine will just be an intro to FP
<alp_>
thelema, the secret is coffee, for me
<alp_>
passion and coffee ? you can do everything you want with them
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<munga_>
is there a way to suppress specific warnings in ocamlbuild ? in particular I find annoying the "Warning X: bad source file name:" if my binary is named like "my-bin" . the - This is not a valid module name, but a perfectly valid bainary name ...
<flux>
that particular class of errors ('all other') can be switched off by giving ocamlc switch -w x
<munga_>
thanks !
<munga_>
so the next step is ... can I pass -w x as an option in _tags or I've to embed it in myocamlbuil.ml ? (the second I fear :) )
<flux>
I'm thinking the latter, but I don't really know
<flux>
I suppose there could be a pre-defined tag for that
<flux>
ocamlbuild had a way of outputting predefined tags, didn't it?
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<fx_>
warn_x
<fx_>
true: debug, annot, thread, warn_A, warn_e
<fx_>
ocamlbuild -documentation | grep is your friend
<fx_>
munga, and better be more specific with suppressions - so "my-bin": warn_x
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<sgnb>
munga: and there are even more control on warnings in the trunk (r9407..)
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<munga>
thank you everybody.
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<middayc>
has anyone done anyting similar to tuple spaces in ocaml?
<thelema>
not that I know of.
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<middayc>
if I understood things right last time I could never make a program A that would hold for example a list of ints, recieve string with anonymous function like
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<middayc>
.. "fun x -> x > 0" execute it on a List.filter and return the results (back over tcp)
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<middayc>
(unless I make a interpreter for the code that should be passed in in OCaml)
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<flux>
basically true
<flux>
there is one possibility for a workaround, though: you could write the data into a file, compile it, and use Dynlink to load the code into your program..
<flux>
I think metaocaml does something like that
<flux>
I don't know how toplevel does it, I guess it uses the compiler interface directly
<middayc>
aha.. haven't thought of that aproach
<middayc>
if that anonymous function would be used for many calculations then that would be ok approach
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<middayc>
but I have to admit I have no idea how I would call this function that I "compiled in" from the already compiled part of the language
<middayc>
I suposse ocaml can't get a function name to call from a runtime value like a string?
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<middayc>
(probably that last is a stupuid question anyway.. I have to look how dylink works at all)
<middayc>
is AliceML a dead project?
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<Yoric[DT]>
middayc: the answer is no, OCaml can't.
<Yoric[DT]>
This can be somewhat encoded.
<Yoric[DT]>
(with hashtables)
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<middayc_>
I guess I have been working too much with the scripting languages :)
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<middayc_>
what does this mean from then Dynlink page "No facilities are provided to access value names defined by the unit. Therefore, the unit must register itself its entry points with the main program, e.g. by modifying tables of functions."
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<thelema>
middayc_: when you dynlink in a module, you don't get direct access to that module's namespace.
<thelema>
The way to use a dynlinked module is to have it on load register its functions with the loading program
<middayc_>
so what do you ?do .. I was googling for tutorial or example but didn't find any
<middayc_>
how does it register them .. is there like some API?
<thelema>
no, but it's easy to do this by hand.
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<robthebob>
hi all, having some trouble trying to use extlib, the Option package in particular
<robthebob>
ocaml test.ml
<robthebob>
File "test.ml", line 53, characters 25-43:
<robthebob>
Error: Unbound value Option.map_default
<robthebob>
i'm sure it is something simple, but i cannot find any answers to the problem with google
<thelema>
ok, how are you compiling?
<olegfink>
speaking of metaocaml, has it been updated since 3.09?
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<thelema>
olegfink: Feb 3, 2006.
<Yoric[DT]>
middayc_: one possibility: if you have a value [v] with type [t] in your module [M] (linked dynamically), create a module [M2] containing a value [v] with type [ref t] and make sure that your module [M], when loaded, does [M2.v := v].
<Yoric[DT]>
You can also do something that doesn't quite expose that much the dynamic linking, but it's generally the same idea.
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<middayc_>
does "re-writing of the symbol tables which" mean that you have dummy functions in main program and they get "owerwritten" if the dynamically linked module defines them too?
<middayc_>
I typed this before I say what you wrote Yoric .. I will process your explanation a little
<robthebob>
thelema, i'm just trying to load my program into the toplevel
<robthebob>
actually, just run it through the interpreter
<thelema>
middayc_: yes
<middayc_>
thelema: aha.. then it's simpler than I thought .. nice
<thelema>
middayc_: they don't automatically get overwritten - the module you load has to overwrite them.
<middayc_>
aha, with the code that Yoric showed me, now it all makes sense .. and seems better and safer than v.no1
<robthebob>
thelema, are you suggesting I should put that at the top of my file? that causes a syntax error. I then tried running ocaml and entering that (result was "unit" twice), and the "#use 'test.ml'"
<robthebob>
but i got the same response
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<thelema>
robthebob: after the [#use "topfind";;], can you list what ocamlfind packages you have installed?