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<peper>
hello
<peper>
anyone know how to capture ctrl + click in lablgtk? :)
<CcSsNET>
omg thats a rediculas hotkey :D
<peper>
why? :)
* CcSsNET
finds a use for it
<peper>
CcSsNET: anyway, any idea how? :)
<CcSsNET>
nope :-/
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<Tianon>
is the 1.0 code in thelema's github repo considered working / stable?
<Tianon>
(for batteries-included)
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<mrvn>
Tianon: That is what 1.0 is suposed to mean
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<emias>
Is there a recommended book for digging into OCaml? From searching around, Jason Hickey's introduction and the online translation of "Développement d'applications avec Objective Caml" seem to be popular. Is either of these (or some other writing) usually preferred?
<julm>
that book is great
<emias>
Which one? :-) Jason Hickey's "Introduction to Objective Caml" or the tranlation of "Développement ..."?
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<gildor>
emias: the translation of "Développement ..." is probably a better choice
<julm>
second
<emias>
I see. Thank you.
<gildor>
I started with it and it gives me a pretty good taste of OCaml
<gildor>
emias: (note: some examples might be outdated)
<emias>
Yup, I figured it's old-ish ...
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<th5>
that's the one where he builds a simple MAKE right? i really liked those slides
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<boscop>
hi. how would you handle mutable game state in functional programming?
<mrvn>
boscop: practicably? With mutable. Theoretically? By passing a global ENV binding around all the time and altering that.
<boscop>
ENV = environment?
<thelema>
yes
<boscop>
is it possible (and scalable, fun, ...) to do everything functional and not object-oriented?
<mrvn>
other languages do it
<boscop>
in what way is the functional way superior to the OO way except for concurrency?
<mrvn>
in everything and nothing.
<boscop>
I've tried to find a site where several programming problems are solved with OO and functional approach and then compared how elegant the solution is, but I couldn't find one
<thelema>
boscop: for one, they both discourage global state, but do so in very different ways
<mrvn>
thelema: I don't see OO that way. That just puts global states in namespaces.
<thelema>
you could compare ruby (or python) vs. ocaml on the PLshootout
<thelema>
mrvn: yes, OO hides global state within objects
<boscop>
but if you have to have a global environment binding for mutable (game) state, isn't that against the goal?
<thelema>
making it a local state.
<mrvn>
But a singleton is just as global.
<mrvn>
boscop: No. For me the goal is to combine what works best.
<thelema>
mrvn: true, but singletons are pretty non-OO
<mrvn>
If the state is global then OO has either a singleton or a global object.
<mrvn>
Never seen anyone passing an state object around in OO.
<mrvn>
boscop: If you go purely functional you can't have O(1) random access arrays.
<thelema>
mrvn: really?
<thelema>
you can't have O(1) lookup arrays?
<mrvn>
read-only, true.
<mrvn>
But then write acces is O(n)
<thelema>
yup. Mutating the array = forbidden.
<thelema>
slicing the array can still be cheap, but yes, writes become expensive with large, immutable, monolithic structures
<mrvn>
And if you speed up writes then reads become slower.
<thelema>
via trees, yes
<mrvn>
I really prefer to have the choice to use a mutable array when that is more usefull. Or objects. Or functional structures. Ocaml allows all.
<mrvn>
That makes it such "fun"
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<thelema>
I like choices too. Although I find Objects rarely the right choice
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<boscop>
is there a good ocaml web framework?
<julm>
ocamlnet ?
<Spiwack>
ocsigen
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<Yoric>
OPA :)
<Spiwack>
OPA isn't ocaml, is it?
<Yoric>
Nope.
<Yoric>
Just a shameless plug :)
<Spiwack>
Should I sue you for dishonest advertising, then?
<Spiwack>
(is it available to start with? So that I can check on it some day)
<thelema>
despite what OPA isn't, it is the only ocaml-ish web framework I'd use.
<Spiwack>
Oh ?
<Camarade_Tux>
why not ocsigen?
<Spiwack>
So I guess that'd require some comments.
<Spiwack>
I'd be interested indeed, as Camarade_Tux put: "why not ocsigen?"
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<Yoric>
Spiwack: sure, it's available. I can give you the URL but I might be sued for complete spamming :)
<boscop>
where to look for ocaml libraries? is there something like CPAN?
* Yoric
wishes to thank thelema for the support.
<Yoric>
boscop: google for "caml hump".
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<Spiwack>
The support is incomplete. We want hints and arguments of why.
<Spiwack>
(support to the OPA cause, I mean)
<Yoric>
More concise, more powerful.
<Yoric>
That's just the hints, no time for arguments atm.
* Yoric
is currently working on improving a lot the OPA stdlib.
<Spiwack>
These looks more like a slogan than a hint. Though I'm quite able to take the "more concise" for granted.
<Spiwack>
Well, anyway, time is of the essence.
<Spiwack>
But then again, this'd be an interesting debate to have someday.
<Spiwack>
To try and understand what both approach have to offer.
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<thelema>
oscigen seems liks it's too structured - generating html programmatically isn't my thing.
<mfp>
thelema: you're not forced to use the XHTML module though; you can use any templating system you want
<thelema>
The structure of the HTML drives the structure of your code - this seems wrong
<Spiwack>
I am not sure what the alternative is. Then again, I don't quite know OPA.
<thelema>
fair enough, maybe I'm just really unhappy with the xhtml module.
<Spiwack>
Well, you can build a higher abstraction.
<Spiwack>
I have only prototype websites in Ocsigen, but really, It doesn't quite feel like writing html (appart when writing chunks of text, when it cannot really be helped)
<thelema>
true. I guess it fails my test of "simple things easily, complex things possible"
<Spiwack>
It seems to me that what you mean is that there lacks tool in Ocsigen.
<Spiwack>
tools*
<Spiwack>
(which is a fair criticism)
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<thelema>
unless your Option.value_exn takes a function as argument, I don't see how it works.
<mbac>
oh right the |! makes that impossible
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<thelema>
which is where batteries' (|-) comes in - let ( |- ) f g x = g (f x)
<mbac>
oh, that's handy
<mbac>
i will appropriate that :)
<thelema>
please appropriate as much of batteries as you want.
<mbac>
anyway what i'm trying to do is make a tagged union for http headers but also allow easy access without writing two dozen accessor functions
<mbac>
so something like find headers ~f:(function Content_length x -> x) seems like the easiest way to grab it (and throw an exception if doesn't exist)
<thelema>
there's not that many http headers that are important - write accessors for those and do whatever for the rest
<mbac>
they're all important to someone
<thelema>
and why not expose the whole thing as a map of some kind (string,string) Hashtbl.t
<mbac>
i demand easy access to TE, damnit
<Tianon>
thelema: speaking of Batteries, every time I build and install (on Gentoo here), it builds fine, and appears to run the tests just fine (although having an example of "good" omake test output would be a nice addition to the repo), but whenever I try to do anything with it from the interactive shell (open Batteries, open BatArray, etc.), I get a fatal error about index out of bounds (can pastebin full log if it would be helpful)
<thelema>
Tianon: please
<mbac>
because each header field value isn't always a string
<mbac>
or, rather, best represented by a string
<thelema>
mbac: at some level it is, and http allows arbitrary header fields.
<mbac>
it does, but arbitrary header fields can get their own tag
<mbac>
Extension of string * string :)
<thelema>
why do you want to pre-parse the header fields instead of providing all the different parsing functions that could be needed?
<thelema>
s/header fields/header field values/
<thelema>
and almost all are strings, the few that aren't are the exception and can be handled by either a list parser or int_of_string
<mbac>
i'm preparsing them because i believe it'll be easier to write content fudging proxies this way
<flux>
mbac, there's a camlp4 module that gives irrefutable pattern matching without disabling the warning globally, where you need
<flux>
mbac, don't remember where it is, though :). pretty sure it's bluestorm's writing..
<flux>
pa_irrefutable.ml maybe
<Tianon>
thelema: just let me know if you want me to dig around and pastebin more stuff :)
<thelema>
Tianon: can you edit your batteries.ml file in the root of the source dir to set ext_syntax = false?
<Tianon>
certainly :)
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<thelema>
then reinstall (omake uninstall install) to put that file in the right place
<thelema>
alternately, you could change your .ocamlinit to load the copy of batteries.ml that you edited.
<Tianon>
hmm, there isn't 'ext_syntax' in batteries.ml, or anywhere in src directory, for that matter
<mbac>
e.g. let quiet_headers = List.map headers ~f:(function Host (host, 80) -> Host (host, 22080) (* use ssh tunnel *) | User_agent _ -> User_agent "noyb" | Pragma stuff -> Pragma "no-cache" :: stuff | h -> h), etc.
<thelema>
Tianon: not in the src directory, right above that.
<Tianon>
oh, heh, my bad :)
<Tianon>
there it is :)
<thelema>
sorry, not the src/ dir, the source dir.
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<Tianon>
hey, no nasty Symtable error anymore, and no more fatal error when I load the modules
<thelema>
but we've not really solved the problem, we just disabled the camlp4 extensions
<Tianon>
right :)
<thelema>
next, put it back to true, and find the line "Topfind.load_deeply ..."
<thelema>
should be L73 in batteries.ml
<thelema>
try removing each of batteries.pa_string.syntax and batteries.pa_comprehension.syntax and see if it works with one of them.
<thelema>
or if it works with neither of them.
<thelema>
Another thing to do to get more debug info is to change L41 to [Sys.interactive := true;;]
<Tianon>
ok, tried with one, then the other of the pa_, then with neither, and none of those worked (same behavior as before), on to getting more debug info :)
<thelema>
so it doesn't work just loading camlp4?
<Tianon>
nope :/
<Tianon>
and setting Sys.interactive to true didn't add anything
<Tianon>
also, I've got two computers both running Gentoo here, and they've both got this same issue
<thelema>
ok, try making the interactive change on your ~/.ocamlinit
<thelema>
it should have a similar Sys.interactive line
<Tianon>
well, that gave more output
<thelema>
pastebin please.
<Tianon>
I'll pastebin and let you decide if it's helpful output :P
<thelema>
should be /usr/lib/ocaml/METAS/META.camlp4
<thelema>
well, could be that.
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<thelema>
This bug should have been fixed in findlib 1.2.5
<Tianon>
yeah, I noticed I was running 1.2.3, so I'm updating
<Tianon>
heh, update to 1.2.5 fixed it (#use "topfind";; #camlp4o;;)
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<thelema>
that should fix the whole thing with no changes to batteries
<Tianon>
cool, thanks, will give it a shot :) it may seem silly, but it might not be a bad idea to mention that findlib needs to be > 1.2.3 in the readme, now :)
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<thelema>
will od.
<thelema>
*do
<thelema>
pushed
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<Tianon>
many thanks :)
<thelema>
you're welcome. Keep reporting bugs.
<Tianon>
I'll do my best! Maybe now I'll actually be able to find meatier ones than simple "AAA still mentioned" :)
<thelema>
Vote on the issues that'll help you in the tracker
<Tianon>
That I can surely do :)
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<Tianon>
by the way, after upgrading to findlib 1.2.5, everything is working :) thanks again! :)
<thelema>
you're welcome.
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<babalu>
hello, if i have a file a.ml which defines some type t = Const of int | Const2 of int blabla ... how can i make a matching on constructors on a file b.ml (i.e. match v with Const i | Const2 i) etc.; for now, if i try to compile, i get Unbound constructor Const
<mrvn>
A.Const i
<babalu>
mrvn: even if do open A in b.ml?
<babalu>
even if i write*
<mrvn>
Nope, then the A. is implicit
<thelema>
if you do [open A], then it should work without the A
<thelema>
"A."
<mrvn>
same if you include A
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<thelema>
but you probably shouldn't include A, and you probably should keep the functions that manipulate the internals of A's types within A
<mrvn>
and opening A pollutes your namespace. So A.Const usualy is best
<mrvn>
Sometimes you also see module A = Another_module_with_a_too_long_name_to_type_every_time
<thelema>
yup
<babalu>
if i do open A; and match with Const i got the error, and i still got the error even if i match with Const.A
<thelema>
babalu: do you have an a.mli file?
<babalu>
thelema: oh, this works if i remove the .mli file, should i define my type in the .mli file also?
<thelema>
babalu: yes, the mli file is like a filter of what's available from the .ml file.
<babalu>
thanks it's better now :)
<mrvn>
babalu: you only need the mli file if you want to hide something from the ml file. Otherwise remove it.
<babalu>
mrvn: it's for a class project so i thought that would be the right place to tell which function does what
<mrvn>
I would do that in the ml file
<babalu>
ok thanks
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<olegfink>
is there a tiny toy compiler written in ocaml? there are nice interpreters on plzoo, but I'd like an equivalently toy-ish compiler.
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