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<f[x]>
mfp, what I find missing in extprot is an ability to map some generated types to host ones. e.g. think of 'a option - I want to use ocaml's option, not the generated one and have to use to_maybe/of_maybe to map all messages back and forth
<f[x]>
this is quite cumbersome, taking into consideration ocaml's record fields naming restrictions
<f[x]>
so I am thinking of adding ability for the host language to map extprot type to some host type
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<mfp>
f[x]: there's an undocumented mechanism to equate types from the extprot protocol to other OCaml types
<f[x]>
I am all ears
<mfp>
it looks like this: type opt 'a = None | Some 'a options "ocaml.type_equals" = "option"
<mfp>
there's also a way to apply of_t/to_t functions automatically on (de)serialization, so the generated type is not exactly the low-level one used in the protocol
<mfp>
e.g. type uuid = string options "ocaml.type" = "Uuid.t, Uuid.of_string, Uuid.to_string"
<f[x]>
ouch!
* f[x]
removes half of yesterday's code
<mfp>
sorry
<f[x]>
that's pretty cool, thanks!
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<mfp>
it's not documented because it's very ad-hoc and thought I'd probably change it (e.g. to use a tuple in actual OCaml syntax instead of a comma-separated string), but in the end it stayed that way
<f[x]>
I thought of doing it in separate file from .proto cause it is not really protocol thing but more like mapping annotation
* f[x]
should have thought that it is already implemented
<mfp>
that'd indeed be cleaner, conceptually, but in practice keeping it in the .proto is convenient
<f[x]>
yes :)
<mfp>
btw, in case you bump into this need, there's another undocumented thing IIRC
<mfp>
polymorphic record types
<mfp>
they look like
<mfp>
type error 'data = { data : 'data; desc : string }
<mfp>
then you can define messages using message foo_error = error<some_message_or_type>
<f[x]>
ok
<f[x]>
btw I forgot to add extprot.a in ocamlfind patch
<mfp>
i.e. polymorphic record types allow to define message types conveniently, but, as other types (not messages), do not have associated (de)serialization functions
<mfp>
because the communication is always done with concrete messages, not with polymorphic ones
* f[x]
understands
<mfp>
and forcing the basic unit of communication to be a message ensures we can extend it later (by adding fields, other constructors, etc.)
<f[x]>
is there a way, given two proto files, to check whether they are back/forward compatible?
<mfp>
not atm.; I meant to write one, but never managed to
* f[x]
finds extprot pretty useful now, will see how it goes
<mfp>
most serialization formats either do not support rich types (tuples, sum types) or give no thought to compatibility :-/
<f[x]>
sum types are a killer feature
<flux>
I guess it'd be fair to say that most serialization formats are at the level of C structs..
<flux>
serialization seems to be a recurring topic, though
<flux>
how many serialization/deserialization solutions are there for ocaml already?-)
<f[x]>
concerning compatibility I would prefer speed - i.e. smth like keeping all history of protocol revisions and generating readers for each protocol version into latest data format
<f[x]>
so deserialization is possible only with proto file (and history)
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<adrien>
in emacs, it looks like that when a paragraph ends with a line with non-zero indentation, the following line keeps the indentation instead of being actually empty
<adrien>
does anyone know if it's something needed/wanted or just that noone cared?
<adrien>
(it breaks some things in vim: ) and ( in particular)
<kaustuv>
"following line"? You mean if you use C-j?
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<adrien>
ah, my bad, it's not emacs, it's camlp4: I keep on forgetting that lablgtk2's src/gtkSignal.ml is actually generated from src/gtkSignal.ml4 (and I always edit the wrong file too >< )
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<adrien>
rixed: you mentionned something with ocaml-text and lwt on the godi list recently, did you have this issue: "source package godi-lwt requires godi-ocaml-text>=0.4"?
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<adrien>
ok, "just" have to upgrade all, I'm not sure why I got that now, 33 packages to recompile
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<adrien>
"let _id, text = Y.text e#as_entry in let foo = React.S.map print_endline (Obj.magic text) in" (yeah, I'm aware of the Obj.magic, will have to check what's going on)
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<pdhborges>
Hi!
<pdhborges>
the code for the bytecode runtime is shared with the native runtime correct?
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<flux>
what code?
<flux>
source code for standard library, sure
<flux>
there can be some differences in the c library calling conventions
<flux>
also there's a different threading library
<pdhborges>
flux: the code under byterun
<pdhborges>
is used for the asm runtime
<pdhborges>
?
<flux>
pdhborges, I'm not certain what you mean
<flux>
philtor, bytecode runs with an interpreter
<flux>
native code is assembler
<flux>
so the interpreter is not used
<pdhborges>
I'm taking about ocaml's source code
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<pdhborges>
s/taking/talking/
<flux>
a lot of code (parsing etc) is shared
<pdhborges>
in the repo
<pdhborges>
there is a asmrun folder
<kaustuv>
The runtime library is mostly the same. Some bytecode stubs are different
<pdhborges>
and a byterun folder
<pdhborges>
a
<flux>
pdhborges, well, I imagine they dont't have a lolt of code
<pdhborges>
okay
<orbitz>
Hello, are there any good documents/books for how to design software in ocaml? I find I don't quite grok modules and functors (I'm used to modules in the Python/Java sense)
<flux>
most being in other directories
<kaustuv>
orbitz: You can use pretty much everything in Larry Paulson's book Standard ML for the Working Programmer
<orbitz>
Ok
<orbitz>
I've looked at soem of teh Core code and I don't really grok what they are doing somtimes (or how it is useful to me) like having comparable sub modules in List/String
<orbitz>
ah looks lik ei already had the 2005 version of this book
<orbitz>
thanks
<kaustuv>
However, I am not sure how much it will help you grok the Core code, given that Core has essentially zero documentation.
<kaustuv>
And anyway Core has a more SML-y design than other OCaml modules
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<kaustuv>
The Comparable etc. stuff is a kind of poor man's type classes. Basically, if a module M ascribes to Comparable (i.e, this typechecks: module MC : Comparable = M), then you can use M as an argument to any functor that expects a Comparable
<orbitz>
Ok
<orbitz>
I have my first real Ocaml program and I need to refactor it out ot be much les sof the kludge that it is
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<thelema>
orbitz: don't worry about module structure - factor into functions first and then group related functions in modules
<orbitz>
ok
<thelema>
if you wanted to rewrite your program to use a more complex architecture, then you might consider module types and functors
<thelema>
but before doing this, have a really good understanding of the working parts of your current solution and their relationships to each other and to the data types
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<kaustuv>
xkill
<kaustuv>
ugh
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<kaustuv>
If Jane St. is so successful, why aren't other Wall St. firms adopting OCaml? Or are they?
<thelema>
kaustuv: ocaml is just a tool - how you use the tool is the critical part.
<thelema>
I don't think jane street is so successful that their every detail will be copied by others
<thelema>
and ocaml is just one detail.
<kaustuv>
reading threads like http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2235204 gives me the impression that a lot of people think that OCaml is a great language to learn if you want to work in computerized finance
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<orbitz>
F# is used by a few firms
<orbitz>
and Goldman uses Haskell for a few things I think
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<thelema>
ocaml is just a bit hard to work with because of 1) confusing compiler error messages and 2) lack of polymorphic print (anything else the most troubling to new users?)
<kaustuv>
I would have said ocaml's byzantine build system is more immediately problematic, in comparison to Hakell say where dependencies are automagically loaded and compiling is no harder than ghc --make
<thelema>
agreed, ocaml dependencies are in the dark ages, but is it really any worse than C/C++?
<adrien>
I use a _tags file...
<kaustuv>
And I find OCaml's error messages much clearer than GHC's. If I do 1 + "hello", OCaml says that "hello" is not an int. Haskell would say "there is no instance for Num [Char]"
* adrien
didn't know you could do worse than ocaml
<thelema>
adrien: in order to do that, you have to use a magical myocamlbuild.ml that integrates with findlib
<adrien>
thelema: use ocaml 3.12 and ocamlbuild -use-ocamlfind
<thelema>
adrien: okay, you still have an external dependency and a magical build flag
<kaustuv>
ocamlbuild + ocamlfind still doesn't do dependency resolution across packages
<adrien>
and then, 'pkg(lablgtk2-react, mikmatch), syntax(camlp4o)' iirc
<thelema>
and declare your dependencies outside your source files and probably use a makefile to give the full ocamlbuild command to build your main file
<adrien>
kaustuv: I don't think it's a big issue
<adrien>
maybe documentation more
<adrien>
or showing that to newcomers
<thelema>
ocamlbuild + findlib helps a lot in using a library that's already installed (that supports findlib)
<thelema>
many ocaml libraries still don't support findlib, and we're waiting on oasis-db for installing the library we need
<thelema>
oh yeah, and ocamlbuild has problems on win32, iirc
<adrien>
I've been building yypkg in msys without issues
<adrien>
less features maybe but no issue
<kaustuv>
The thing is, if I want to use Wiz.Bang.Zoinks in cabal package flurble in Haskell, I would just put import Wiz.Bang.Zoinks at the top, hit C-c C-l, and ghci would load flurble automatically. The issue of explicit #require, #load, etc. just never shows up in ghci
<thelema>
adrien: maybe the issues are fixed.
<thelema>
yes, dependencies in the ocaml toplevel are extra miserable, especially dependencies on your own code
<adrien>
thelema: I'm pretty sure that there's still issues but it works well enough
<thelema>
I don't use the toplevel to debug my code because loading all my code into the toplevel to use it is so hard.
<kaustuv>
Maybe an oasis+findlib aware toplevel should be considered
<adrien>
kaustuv: imho it's not the most critical thing: you'll probably get an error because you've forgotten to edit the build config but it's easy to fix it
<kaustuv>
adrien: I am not saying it's the most critical thing. Thelema asked about new user problems.
<thelema>
kaustuv: findlib already integrates pretty well in the toplevel. as I said, in-project (non-findlib) dependencies
<thelema>
having to load each cmo in the right order
<adrien>
kaustuv: yes, but for this I tend to think it's rather the visibility of docs and howtos
<kaustuv>
well, for that you can just build a .cma with ocamlbuild and load that instead
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<kaustuv>
but there is still the issue of saying #directory "../_build/src" and all the subdirs thereof
<adrien>
we probably need some testers and ask them to try to start learning ocaml and see what they do and what they get
<kaustuv>
I'm sure we get a fresh batch of "testers" at the start of every college semester
<thelema>
yup, they show up pretty regularly
<kaustuv>
question is are they motivated to learn or to do just enough to get by
<thelema>
Maybe we should ask them for contact info on their profs so we can get more info there
<thelema>
the profs would know best common problems
<adrien>
I think you don't need to look very far: take anyone with five or ten minutes free and see what they do and get
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