<Drakken>
ssbr_ one hack would be to put the :b in an OPT after the a
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<gdsfh>
Hello. I'm trying to write an ocamlbuild plugin to compile OCaml + Coq projects. Here is an attempt: https://bitbucket.org/gds/ocamlbuild-coq-attempt , but the plugin doesn't work as expected: it fails to use rule "ocaml: mli -> cmi" to produce String0.cmi from the existing String0.mli file. If you run script "./run.sh" from repository, you'll see the problem. Any ideas?
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<Drakken>
Is there a way to create module abbreviations in a .mli file without making them part of the signature?
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<flux>
well, you can open another module that does those abbreviations
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<Drakken>
very good :)
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<Drakken>
2nd question: Is there a way to include a sig file in a .mlpack file?
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<jaxtr>
ahh it's a wonderful day
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<hcarty>
mrvn: There are a few logging modules that have camlp4 support. I think Lwt's logging module supports this (and requires that you use Lwt). Bolt does as well - http://forge.ocamlcore.org/projects/bolt/
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<hcarty>
mrvn: And in Batteries 2.x the main logging module has a functor which may give you the customization you want.
<hcarty>
thelema: What do you think of a minimal or possibly comments-only packages file for odb installed by default with ocamlbrew, showing users how to add their own custom/non-oasis-db'd packages?
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<hcarty>
If a function never returns (for example, looping forever) it is better to leave its return type as 'a or force unit in the interface?
<thelema>
hcarty: 'a, as exit
<Ptival>
I'd say 'a too
<thelema>
hcarty: I'm fine with a minimal packages file
<adrien>
but even glib's mainloop returns :-)
<thelema>
I agree about the requires-root packages
<hcarty>
thelema, Ptival: Thanks
<hcarty>
adrien: In this case the only way it's returning is if something raises an exception :-)
<hcarty>
adrien: while true do ... or let rec loop f x = f x; loop f x
<hcarty>
thelema: Ok. I'll see what they come back with on the bug report and go from there. I'll find time to come up with a first pass at a minimal file.
<adrien>
hcarty: well, replacing "while true" with like "while !cond" could be nice too
<adrien>
but it really depends on what you're doing
<hcarty>
adrien: Fair point
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<roconnor>
Hi, when compiling coq-trunk from svn I get the following build error:
<roconnor>
OCAMLOPT -o bin/coqide.byte
<roconnor>
File "ide/coqide_main.ml4", line 1, characters 0-1:
<roconnor>
Error: Error on dynamically loaded library: dlllablgtk2.so: dlllablgtk2.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
<roconnor>
Can anyone tell me how to debug this error; i.e. how do I figure out where ocaml is looking for these dlls?
<roconnor>
so I can point it to the right place
<thelema>
roconnor: do you have a dlllablgtk2.so file and is its location in your ocaml/ld.conf file?
<roconnor>
I have the file, but the compilation is sandboxed so it doesn't have access to any ocaml/ld.conf file.
<roconnor>
I presumably need to set some compilation flags or some environment variables
<adrien>
ocaml*opt* and .so?
<roconnor>
adrien: I don't understand the question.
<adrien>
iirc, opt-compiled executables don't use these dllfoo.so files
<adrien>
and OCAMLOPT outputting a .byte file seems pretty weird
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<adrien>
so, to me, it looks like there's something else going wrong
<thelema>
OCAML_LD_LIBRARY_PATH=<path to dlllablgtk2.so>
<thelema>
or maybe just CAML_LD_...
<adrien>
the whole thing makes no sense; coq's build system looks fucked up
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<roconnor>
thelema: I'll give that a try
<adrien>
complain to the coq devs
<roconnor>
ok
<adrien>
even if the env var stuff works, there's something else that's broken
<adrien>
because no matter if it's naming something "OCAML*OPT*" for bytecode stuff, or calling native-code executables "*.byte", there's something wrong
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<thelema>
roconnor: adrien is right, something is fishy
<roconnor>
hmm, the prebuilt-version from another machine was *not* building coqide ... maybe coqide is broken.
<roconnor>
thelema: indeed, in coq8.3 it doesn't call OCAMLOPT, but rather COQMKTOP
<roconnor>
okay, so defitely something to take up with the coq-devs
<adrien>
"OCAMLOPT" could be anything, including a call to ocamlc of course, but it looks too big for the coq devs to never have seen it (or not seeing it now)
<roconnor>
for now I can probably also disable building coqide
<roconnor>
adrien: a quick glace makes it appear that OCAMLOPT is shorthand for either ocamlopt or ocamlopt.exe
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<mrvn>
.oO(and one would want ocamlopt.opt there too)
<roconnor>
er could be I forget exactly what I read in the makefile
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<thelema>
module A provides type t, module B uses type t, module C includes A and tries to use functions from B that work on A.t, but these don't work because A.t <> C.t (the included copy of A.t)
<mrvn>
thelema: rebind the type?
<thelema>
mrvn: where?
<mrvn>
when you include A
<mrvn>
Although why isn't type C.t = A.t? Why is it abstract?
<thelema>
I'm not sure. It may have to do with me using `module type of` to get the type of A so I can extend A.D
<mrvn>
module A = struct type t let f : t -> t = function x -> x end
<mrvn>
module B = struct let g : (A.t -> A.t) -> (A.t -> A.t) = function x -> x end
<mrvn>
module C = struct include A let h () = B.g f end;;
<mrvn>
Works fine here.
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<thelema>
must have to do with my `include (A:module type of A with ...)`
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<mrvn>
thelema: I think that creates a new type.
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<thelema>
mrvn: well rebinding the new type to the old type seems to be working so far
<thelema>
`and with type t := A.t`
<thelema>
... or not...
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<thelema>
ok, that was a bit ugly - fixed by re-declaring t in the signature (type t := A.t) *and* important that type as another type (so I could access its record fields)
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<mfp>
thelema: did you also try include (A:module type of A with type t = B.t and type ...) ?
<thelema>
B doesn't include A, so it doesn't have a .t
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<wmeyer>
hi
<thelema>
hi
<mrvn>
wo?
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<roconnor>
apparently that OCAMLOPT foo.byte stuff was simply a typo in the makefile ECHO statement while the real command was hidden :/
<thelema>
heh
<roconnor>
I'm working on using VERBOSE=1 to see what is actually being run
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<jarray52>
Does Ocaml support multithreading with shared memory between the threads?
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<mrvn>
yes, just not 2 ocaml threads in parallel
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<jarray52>
mrvn: unfortunate since that's a significant use case.
<mrvn>
yes.
<mrvn>
You can do multiple processes with shared memory if you work at it
<jarray52>
mrvn: What's the overhead of multiple processes sharing memory. Let's assume that one process is attached to each core so that no overhead is incurred from process switches.
<mrvn>
jarray52: 0
<jarray52>
mrvn: hmm... that's pretty good. Are you saying that two processes can access memory as fast as threads can access memory?
<mrvn>
jarray52: threads are just processes too. They just share more.
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<mrvn>
jarray52: on the hardware there is no difference between threads running on different cores or processes.
<jarray52>
mrvn: processes have more information attached to them. And, doesn't the OS(Linux) typically associate memory to 1 and ony 1 process.
<jarray52>
?
<jarray52>
mrvn: Otherwise, it would be a serious security issue, right?
<mrvn>
not with shared memory
<jarray52>
mrvn: Unless there is hardware support, the OS has to check if a process is authorized to write to that shared memory, right?
<mrvn>
That is always checked by the hardware
<jarray52>
hardware supports a multiple process check feature?
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<mrvn>
nothing to do with multiple. The hardware simply has a memory management unit that translates from virtual addresses to physical addresses and does those checks.
<jarray52>
mrvn: Is there an analogue of mutexes?
<mrvn>
jarray52: IPC
<jarray52>
mrvn: In order to lock the memory to one process until the lock is released?
<mrvn>
jarray52: Instead of shared memory you can also do message passing through a pipe or socket. That is often simpler if you only need to share little information at a time.
<mrvn>
Plus that can run on different systems and not just cores of one system.
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<Drakken>
ssbr_ why are you ignoring a in a:b?
<ssbr_>
Drakken: Well, that's the name of a column in a relation, but apparently we never look at the names of columns in relations
<ssbr_>
The grammar was like that when I found it. My job was to let you mix rules and relation definitions freely, without some arbitrary marker separating the two. (Even though they look very similar, up until you hit that colon)
<ssbr_>
(the b part is the domain of the column)
<Drakken>
Anyway, I was going to say you could define a parser that looks for an a and an optional :b, then look for a list of them, and then write your own code to sort things out.
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<ssbr_>
Could, but there's also the trailing "." and some issues with how to present the errors. I'm not sure that's better.
<ssbr_>
I'd really like some way to define rules that aren't quite rules, so that camlp4 can still do its magic LL(1) factorization stuff across them
<ssbr_>
but also so that my grammar is, er, readable
<Drakken>
Can rules and relations appear arbitrarily in the same kinds of places?
<ssbr_>
Drakken: IIRC the normal thing is that all the relations are defined first, and all the rules come afterward
<ssbr_>
allowing mixing is optional
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<Drakken>
Alright. I was only talking about the stuff inside the parens, so the rulebody & periods are a separate issue.
<Drakken>
It would factor the arguments of the two lines together, but it would be more permissive than your grammar, so you would have to write some code that checks to see if you have :b's in rules or if they're missing in relations.
<Drakken>
... and gets rid of the options either way.
<Drakken>
The code you pasted is probably more compact overall.
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<ssbr_>
Blargh.
<ssbr_>
Drakken: for grammars like this, do you think I should use a different parsing tool next time?
<Drakken>
you mean like yacc?
<ssbr_>
Possibly. I don't know what people ordinarily use in the ocaml world :(
<Drakken>
ocamllex/ocamlyacc is popular. I use Camlp4.PreCast because it already has ocaml syntax built in.
<pippijn>
ssbr_: I use menhir a lot
<jarray52>
What is the equivalent of open Batteries_uni;; for compiled code?
<pippijn>
jarray52: does open Batteries_uni not work in compiled code?
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<ssbr_>
OK, dank u. You guys have been a great help :)
<pippijn>
jarray52: what are you using to build your software?
<pippijn>
ocamlbuild?
<jarray52>
pippijn: My .ocamlinit file has the line #require "batteries";;
<pippijn>
oh
<pippijn>
I don't know ocamllint
<jarray52>
ocamlc
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<jarray52>
.ocamlinit is read in line by line by the ocaml interpreter immediately after opening.
<pippijn>
oh
<pippijn>
init
<pippijn>
okay
<pippijn>
I always build with ocamlbuild
<wmeyer>
I had similar problems with Camlp4, it's a very powerful tool for code generation and it's easy to extend Caml grammar. However, if you want more ambigous grammars and custom lexer not extending the language I would really advice on Menhir, Dypgen, parsing combinator library like Planck or one of the packrat implementations. Still however you can generate code through Camlp4, it's just you will not be able to extend existing O
<wmeyer>
grammar.
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<ssbr_>
wmeyer: Message received. Thanks
<wmeyer>
@ARM I had generated 200KLOC of ML using Menhir and Camlp4 and it was quite pleasant. From the other drawbacks I see is that the Camlp4 are not recursive, expand the rules until fixpoint is reached - this is how the Lisp macros work, and in this regard it's weaker paradigm.
<wmeyer>
ssbr_: you are welcome.
<wmeyer>
From other things I would like to see in Camlp4 is sort of type reflection. I want to know the environment during expansion.
<wmeyer>
but that's just blue sky dreams :)
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<wmeyer>
You can also look at MetaOCaml - it's for completely different purpose, but I quite liked the idea when I was reading the paper.
<Drakken>
Does menhir have an ocaml parser?
<wmeyer>
I didn't see that, even if it has, Menhir is not extensible.
<wmeyer>
Menhir however can produce functorised grammars, so this limitation is lifted.
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<wmeyer>
It also allows to define macros, so also it's easier to reuse parts.
<wmeyer>
Packrat parser are nice alternatives, they are fast, with unlimited lookahead, and lexerless.
<wmeyer>
The last two, allows to mix several languages that the grammar is different without any quotations or separators.
<ssbr_>
ehhhh... they're left-biased (or whatever the appropriate term is). I'm not convinced you don't accidentally run into problems
<ssbr_>
(when composing PEGs)
<wmeyer>
Not really, in fact in packrat parsing there exist an algoithm to parse grammars specified with left recursive rules.
<wmeyer>
Other part of story is that you *can* always rewrite left recursive grammar.
<wmeyer>
There is a paper and post saying that the algorithm does not work in every case however. It proves this, but I wasn't strong enough to follow this.
<jarray52>
pippijn: Ocamlbuild worked. Thanks.
<wmeyer>
@Drakken apart from that, Menhir can use ocamlyacc grammars so I suppose porting would be not a problem.
<wmeyer>
But you can't beat lexless parsing in terms of extensibility.
<wmeyer>
It's just much more fine grained.
<mrvn>
wmeyer: we aren't playing quake here
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<wmeyer>
mrvn: OK. I don't want to flood the channel.
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<ssbr_>
wmeyer: no, I mean packrat parsers don't backtrack on an ordered choice
<ssbr_>
they pick the leftmost one that makes sense and run with it, even if a later choice might've made sense
<ssbr_>
or maybe I don't
<ssbr_>
anyway I've heard other people be critical of their ability to compose sanely
<wmeyer>
Exactly, they are deterministic.
<mrvn>
wmeyer: @nick doesn't mean the text goes only to nick.
<wmeyer>
and that's a good thing.
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<ssbr_>
wmeyer: I always liked nondeterministic choice operators. As long as it's unambiguous, it's fine
<wmeyer>
mrnv: Yes, I started using IRC and I had forggotten already how to do this -- in ERC does not seem to complete in either ways.
<wmeyer>
ssbr_: It's a matter of taste, the difference feels like between static typing and dynamic typing with macros.
<wmeyer>
However not having a lexer is adventorous :)
<wmeyer>
You can always have the lexer in PEG if you want to
<wmeyer>
It's just not mandatory
<wmeyer>
(and perhaps a hurdle when you extend the grammar)
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<wmeyer>
ssbr_: What kind of application you are working on?
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<wmeyer>
Right -- I am kind of tired, no staying overnight today, it's been kind of tiring week. night
<bjorkintosh>
does ocaml have anything like sml's "it"?
<mrvn>
which is what?
<bjorkintosh>
in the repl, it represents the last value obtained.
<bjorkintosh>
so if you did 2 + 2 ; you could then say it * 10 ;
<mrvn>
not that i know.
<bjorkintosh>
alright thanks.
<mrvn>
just use let it = 2 * 2;;
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<mrvn>
or write your own toplevel that implicitly binds the result to it
<bjorkintosh>
aha.
<wmeyer>
The problem would be a nested let.
<bjorkintosh>
that sounds right now like a herculean task; i'm learning ocaml from some sml books i got my hands on.
<wmeyer>
let it = let a = 1 in ?
<bjorkintosh>
so i've barely scratched chapter 2.
<ssbr_>
wmeyer: I'm extending a datalog interpreter
<ssbr_>
oh yeah, did I mention it isn't on line 57
<pippijn>
maybe ocaml is missing a __LINE__
<wmeyer>
ssbr_: Add some beer and it will be even worse (or better).
<ssbr_>
it's on line 69
<wmeyer>
ssbr_: ;)
<ssbr_>
now it's on line 7x and 7y
<ssbr_>
What should I replace those error messages with?
<wmeyer>
ssbr_: I will not paste any of the C++ library code.
<pippijn>
ssbr_: try UUIDs
<pippijn>
scott mcpeak does that
<ssbr_>
Well I was thinking the name of the function + some indication of the actual problem
<mrvn>
ssbr_: just remove them
<ssbr_>
but what's a usual approach?
<wmeyer>
ssbr_: It's more useful than failwith ("renaming.ml" ^ string_of_int (Rand.int ()))
<ssbr_>
-____-
<mrvn>
if you want file/line infos then just assert false
<mrvn>
doesn't seem sane there though
<pippijn>
I don't understand why it's raising Failure, anyway
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<pippijn>
it could just let the Not_found propagate up
<ssbr_>
pippijn: I guess to give a line number?
<pippijn>
Printexc
<pippijn>
gives you line numbers in a stack trace
<pippijn>
line and column numbers and file names
<wmeyer>
ssbr_: You can have many solutions here, as it's been noted. Probably the best is to factor out and separate this exceptional behaviors into some function. And yes you can use exception, but you can use monads too if you feel so (I would stay here with exceptions)
<wmeyer>
Here I an see a pattern you look up in enviroment, x and y so you can declare an exception that indiciates on which side it happened (left of right)
<wmeyer>
or you can separate a pass
<pippijn>
monads for exception handling..
<pippijn>
I've thought about that, but it seems to clutter the code
<wmeyer>
that deals with undefined variables
<pippijn>
and it's probably a lot slower
<wmeyer>
not always, but yes - in this case it clutters
<wmeyer>
and not needed
<wmeyer>
you can have separate pass before, to check if you have any undefined symbols, and later trust your find routines.
<wmeyer>
Using failwith is not a very good idea, if you want to catch the exception later. However, as the first cut you should be not worried - because you can refactor later - having a strong typing is another reason to not be worried
<pippijn>
with dependent types, you could first prove that there are no undefined symbols :)
<ssbr_>
wmeyer: I'm pretty sure that the failure would only happen in the case of an error in the algorithm
<ssbr_>
and that those are basically assertions
<pippijn>
I'd just not catch the Not_found, I think
<ssbr_>
pippijn: are there any dependently typed ML dialects other than ATS and its predecessor (Dependent ML) ?
<wmeyer>
ssbr_: hm, then just use find alone
<pippijn>
ssbr_: I don't think so, and I don't think ATS is expressive enough to contain that kind of proofs
<wmeyer>
ssbr_: Coq's Gallina is pretty much close to ML