gildor changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 3.12.1 http://bit.ly/nNVIVH
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<fasta> What is this even supposed to mean (from omake INSTALL file)? http://paste.kde.org/538808/
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<fasta> If $LIBDIR is an absolute path and $INSTALL_DIR is also, then it is the concatenation of two absolute paths.
<fasta> As such, it's just garbage as it stands there right now.
<fasta> I suppose I could just read the source code, but then why is there an INSTALL file in the first place?
<flux> you mean INSTALL_ROOT? the paste doesn't mention INSTALL_DIR
<fasta> flux: sure, INSTALL_ROOT.
<flux> the purpose is this: let's say you have LIBDIR = /usr/lib
<flux> and you're building a debian package
<flux> you don't want to install to /usr/lib, because that would screw your system and you need to be root to do that anyway
<flux> to you set INSTALL_ROOT = /home/fasta/src/somepackage/debian/build-root
<flux> then when you do 'make install' it creates directories /home/fasta/src/somepackage/debian/build-root/usr/lib etc
<flux> and you can make an archive with the root of /home/fasta/src/somepackage/debian/build-root . that directory won't appear in the resulting package.
<flux> if you're not building a package, you probably don't want to touch INSTALL_ROOT
<fasta> flux: I just want to use omake.
<fasta> flux: but doing apt-get install omake and then running it, gives me some errors.
<fasta> flux: probably because it is compiled against a different version of OCaml.
<fasta> flux: is it possible to use Godi and manually installed packages in one installation?
<flux> maybe, not sure if manually installed packages can satisfy a dependency though
<fasta> All of these closed world assumptions in these systems are annoying.
<fasta> 'We are the One True Packaging system'.
<fasta> Except in the end you end up compiling everything from source.
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<fasta> hcarty: is there some way to let GODI + odb + ocamlbrew cooperate?
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<b`> Hi, I am trying to install godi on debian but ./bootstrap fails with: Checksum mismatch for ocaml-make-6.29.3.tar.gz.
<b`> Make sure the Makefile and checksum file (/opt/godi/build/godi/godi-ocamlmakefile/distinfo)
<b`> are up to date. If you want to override this check, type
<b`> "godi_make NO_CHECKSUM=yes [other args]"
<b`> any idea how to resolve this?
<hongboz> b` have you tried odb.ml? it seems much more lightweight and easier to install
<b`> hongboz: no, i am trying ocaml and wanted to try: https://github.com/martindemello/ocaml-tetris and it says: "makefile assumes everything has been installed via findlib (if you have installed ocaml and batteries via godi this should hold good)."
<b`> so was blundering my way through installing godi without knowing exactly what it is
<hongboz> odb.ml also supports ocamlfind by default, it's a single file
<b`> ok, trying odb.ml, godi seems too difficult for me to install
<hongboz> odb.ml is a single file, good luck
<b`> thanks! but already: ocaml odb.ml
<b`> File "odb.ml", line 54, characters 25-26:
<b`> Error: Syntax error
<b`> :D not my day
<hongboz> let me have a look. from git repo?
<b`> yep
<hongboz> b`: what's your ocaml version?
<b`> ocaml -version
<b`> The Objective Caml toplevel, version 3.11.2
<hongboz> b`: it seems it requires at least ocaml version 3.12
<b`> ooh :(
<hongboz> Unix.((lstat e).st_kind = S_LNK) ==> (lstat e).Unix.st_kind=Unix.S_LINK
<hongboz> have a try?
<b`> sorry, what is this
<hongboz> go to line 54, find 'Unix.((lstat e).st_kind = S_LNK)'
<hongboz> replace with my phrase
<b`> doing
<hongboz> b`: works or not?
<b`> second
<b`> I made it look like
<b`> iff (fun e -> (lstat e).Unix.st_kind=Unix.S_LINK)
<b`> and now i get
<b`> ocaml odb.ml
<b`> Cannot find file topfind.
<b`> Unknown directive `require'.
<hongboz> oh, you need get ocamlfind installed, it should be easy
<b`> ok, so i guess you mean this in debian: p ocaml-findlib - management tool for OCaml libraries
<hongboz> b`: ye, go ahead
<b`> now i get this
<b`> Cannot load required shared library dllstr.
<b`> Reason: /usr/lib/ocaml/stublibs/dllstr.so: /usr/lib/ocaml/stublibs/dllstr.so: undefined symbol: caml_atom_table.
<b`> Cannot load required shared library dllunix.
<b`> Reason: /usr/lib/ocaml/stublibs/dllunix.so: /usr/lib/ocaml/stublibs/dllunix.so: undefined symbol: caml_atom_table.
<b`> File "odb.ml", line 1, characters 0-1:
<b`> Error: Reference to undefined global `Unix'
<b`> when running odb.ml
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<b`> :( Maybe i need to learn ocaml first before i try installing and running stuff on it
<adrien> b`: what is your distribution?
<adrien> why do you have ocaml 3.11.2? it's pretty old
<b`> debian squeeze
<hongboz> b`: upgrade to ocaml 3.12?
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<adrien> 3.12.1 to be precise
<b`> allrighty, seems best
<hongboz> unix since 3.12 is in search path. before 3.12 it seems you need to add "#directory "+unix";;"
<adrien> and there are syntax differences between 3.11 and 3.12 too
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<b`> ok, thanks hongboz and adrien, i will upgrade in sometime but syntax diff, might mean the program i wanto try ~ tetris graphics might not compile~!
<adrien> no, the other way round
<adrien> 3.11 syntax works on 3.12, 4.00, ...
<adrien> 3.12 syntax doesn't work on 3.11
<adrien> which might be the issue you had earlier
* Anarchos is porting ocaml byterun in MMIX :)
<b`> adrien: thanks!
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<adrien> I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really hate mac os x
<thelema> adrien: switch to a real OS
<thelema> :)
<adrien> thelema: heh, I never said I was running it
<adrien> but lablgtk2 released this morning
<thelema> and it doesn't work under osx?
<adrien> installation issues this afternoon; of course, on osx
<thelema> doesn't findlib take care of that?
<thelema> I didn't see much emphasis in the release notes of extra findlib or oasis goodness for lablgtk2
<adrien> well, Jacques has tested it on OS X (he has made some particular changes) but the issue with this crappy platform is that there is no compatibility between versions
<adrien> plus the bug report is about installation through mac ports and I wonder if it doesn't break the build logic (the user ends up with .so files, not .dylib)
<thelema> sounds like it'll be tough to debug/fix
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<adrien> we'll see; so far there are no logs
<adrien> but it's really something when you see a bug report and think "must be os x", and you're right 95% of the time
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<adrien> but it was a great idea to get beer, bread, butter and cheese before checking my emails :-)
<thelema> the OSX package installation story is... complicated by hand-crafted hacks
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<ontologiae> adrien: it's probably a general *BSD problem
<adrien> ontologiae: Jacques seems to run on FreeBSD actually
<ontologiae> adrien: ok
<adrien> and I've also updated the godi package for lablgtk2; godi is derived from pkgsrc; and mac os x had been checked but I guess it was on a different version
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* thelema is amazed by the set of features available in tcl's "standard library": https://gist.github.com/3453108
<thelema> online documentation: http://tcllib.sourceforge.net/doc/index.html
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<thomasga> does batteries work with 4.00.0 ?
<thomasga> seems that 1.4.3 don't
<thelema> thomasga: the latest 1.4.x version of batteries should work with 4.00.0
<thelema> err, not 1.4.x, 1.5.0
<thomasga> ok thx, will use it then
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<fasta> Godi cannot use a custom compiler, can it?
<fasta> I'd say that odb.ml solves a problem and that Godi only introduces new ones if that's the case.
<thelema> fasta: I'm sure there's some complex way for Godi to use a custom compiler
<thelema> I don't know what that is
<fasta> thelema: sure, that would be the problem.
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<thomasga> fasta: you can use opam if you want to support a custom compiler
<thomasga> no official release yet, but it start to stabilize
<thomasga> starts*
<thelema> thomasga: what's the complexity cost of opam over odb.ml?
<thomasga> depends what are you need
<thomasga> needs*
<thelema> there's variable complexity costs of opam?
<thomasga> hum
<fasta> thomasga: why don't you use nix?
<thomasga> how do you evaluate the complexity cost ?
<fasta> thomasga: i.e. why develop something custom when a very well considered solution already exists?
<adrien> considering the adoption of nix, I don't think it's less "custom" than any other too
<adrien> tool*
<thomasga> fasta: does it work with source packages + strong interface checking ?
<fasta> thomasga: it can do source and binary.
<fasta> thomasga: and there is no checking, because it's impossible to mess up by construction.
<fasta> thomasga: also, the guys who created it have PhDs. on the subject.
<thomasga> well, a lot of people have PhDs
<fasta> thomasga: and some ocaml packages have already been packaged.
<thomasga> but I'll have a look
<fasta> thomasga: not on that specific subject.
<fasta> thomasga: I'd say that Nix is about 100,000$ away from absolute perfection.
<thelema> thomasga: for examples of "complexity costs", I think of complex install, work to add metadata to packages to make them available, installed package database usage (+ potential problems with it), fit into existing systems, and I'm sure more
<fasta> thomasga: which is _very_, _very_ close in my world.
<fasta> It only depends on a C++ compiler, AFAIK.
<fasta> The C++ code is readable.
<wmeyer> I was told that I can write an OCaml syntethiser that fits into 4KB then use GIMP to compose that http://soundcloud.com/goalien/goalien-nitzhonotizm
<thomasga> thelema: I'm using OPAM every day and I'm happy with it - so your question is very subjective :-)
<thelema> thomasga: I'm not saying that opam won't provide a great user experience
<thomasga> I mean: OPAM is more complex than odb.ml, but it does solve my every-day problems
<fasta> wmeyer: can you make derived works on soundcloud.com?
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<thomasga> but I've used odb.ml for small projects
<thomasga> and I was happy with it as well
<thelema> thomasga: if I may probe, what problems does opam solve that odb.ml doesn't?
<thomasga> optional dependencies and support of multiple compilers mainly
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<thomasga> (and multiple remote repo)
<thelema> I consider odb's support of multiple compilers (and multiple repos) to be excellent.
<wmeyer> fasta: well, not really thinking about getting on the way and stealing anything, that is pretty much commercial (see the gaps; can you see?), but yes a synth on LiqiudSoap would be interesting.
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<fasta> wmeyer: more formally: what is the license on the content?
<thomasga> thelema: how do you handle dev version for packages ?
<thelema> I agree that odb is weak on optional dependencies, but what should be done there? suggest dependencies to the user (you may want to install foo)? or are you talking about things like utop needing lwt built with react support
<thomasga> yea, lwt/react is a good example
<thelema> thomasga: http://oasis.ocamlcore.org/dev/odb/ - three repos; unstable, stable, testing
<wmeyer> fasta: No idea, it's hard to say
<fasta> I think the whole stable, unstable stuff is a bad idea in principle.
<thomasga> thelema: 'opam install lwt' will install lwt with minimal dependencies
<thelema> thomasga: same with odb
<fasta> I'd prefer to have things with maximal dependencies.
<thomasga> 'opam install react` will install react, recompile lwt (with the right ./configure options) and all the packages which depends on lwt
<fasta> Or rather, configurable in a configuration file.
<thelema> thomasga: really? wow. I've looked into re-compiling the packages that depend on what just got installed, but knowing the right configure options for every optional dependency... wow.
<fasta> thomasga: can you install multiple versions next to eachother?
<thomasga> for dev packages, you can do 'opam pin lwt </local/path/to/your/version/of/lwt', and every time you modify something in your local path, "opam update && opam upgrade" will recompile the package and the packages which depend on it
<fasta> thomasga: and can you already install react 0.94?
<fasta> thomasga: because I noticed that odb lagged.
<thomasga> fasta: no I can't for now, because I'm relying on ocamlfind which does not support that
<fasta> thomasga: you could support that via nix easily.
<thelema> thomasga: odb's solution to your dev package scenario is a local packages file that provides the metadata of where the source comes from, and which overrides the remote repo
<thelema> fasta: if you want react 0.9.4, you can upload it to oasis-db (or point to it in a packages file)
<thelema> thomasga: that's pretty nice; not as ugly as I would have expected.
<fasta> thelema: how does authentication work then?
<thelema> fasta: authentication of a local file?
<thelema> fasta: oh, authentication of the uploaded package.
<thomasga> md5
<thomasga> (half-implemented)
<thelema> fasta: it's recorded and publicly displayed who the uploader is.
<thomasga> (the hard half is implemented)
<fasta> thelema: so, it's based on trust basically.
<thelema> fasta: you do have to be logged in to ocamlforge
<thelema> fasta: yes. No amount of crypto will change that.
<fasta> thelema: some amount of CS will change it, though.
<fasta> Never mind.
<fasta> (It could theoretically change it, but likely it won't, because of other off-topic reasons)
<thelema> fasta: react 0.9.4 is now in --unstable
<fasta> thelema: did you just do that?
<thelema> yes
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<fasta> thelema: how can I ask odb whether a new version is available?
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<fasta> thelema: of package X.
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<thelema> fasta: you can't; the oasis-db server doesn't provide information on what version of a package is available
<fasta> thelema: because installing version X and then installing it again requires a force, but you don't want to reinstall the same version.
<fasta> thelema: that seems to be a design failure then.
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<thelema> thomasga: typo in the react url line 1 : "hhttp"?
<thelema> and tbzz
<fasta> thelema: yeah, I noticed that too.
<fasta> thomasga: is there any notion of versions with this system?
<thomasga> ha yes
<fasta> Also, md5 checksums are a joke.
<wmeyer> fasta: do you want to make a derivative of this?
<thomasga> yes, package are versioned
<fasta> wmeyer: no, I was just wondering as it is an important part of their business model.
<fasta> thomasga: so, there is some command to get the version of react and get back 0.94?
<thomasga> sure
<thomasga> opam info react
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<wmeyer> fasta: of course it perhaps support collaboration
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* thelema is pleasantly impressed by opam
<thomasga> thx
<thomasga> not totally ready for an official release yet
<thelema> and now needs to get back to his other work.
<thomasga> but I'm happy to get some feedback if you start using it
<thomasga> (and I'm happy to steal the good idea of odb.ml as well :-))
<fasta> thomasga: how do you support completely custom ocaml compilers (i.e. patched compilers).
<thomasga> you can add a "patch: [ xxx ]" line
<fasta> thomasga: then I do believe you have all the important bases covered.
<thomasga> sorry, "patches: [ "http://xxxxx" ]"
<thelema> thomasga: where would such a patched compiler be installed to?
<thomasga> ~/.opam/<name of the file.com>/bin
<fasta> thomasga: local files also work, I assume?
<thomasga> default install is in ~/.opam/system/{lib,bin}
<fasta> thomasga: i.e. no 'http'.
<thomasga> fasta: not currently, but yes that would be easy to add
<fasta> thomasga: you should look into Nix anyway, I think.
<thomasga> yea, will look at that during my vacations
<fasta> thomasga: nix already has 2500 packages.
<thomasga> I'm curious to see how they packaged ocamlfind
<thomasga> and ocamlfind related packages
<fasta> thomasga: just only a small fraction of OCaml packages, but you also have no problems with depending on C libraries.
<fasta> thomasga: something which you cannot do with your system, I am sure.
<fasta> thomasga: i.e. depending such that they get installed.
<thelema> afaict, if you upgrade one package in nix, it is mandatory to upgrade everything that depends on it, no?
<thomasga> for sure
<thomasga> we can't
<fasta> thomasga: if that's the only way it can work, yes.
<thomasga> we just manage OCaml packages - that's a nightmare to support all the OS packages :-)
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<fasta> thelema: that was for you.
<fasta> thelema: but it's not like more will break or anything like that.
<thelema> fasta: yes, you're guaranteed that your system will be just like every other system built from the same recipe
<fasta> thelema: which I think is a great property.
<thelema> I agree, except for that everyone wants things slightly different, and this is fundamentally incompatible with exact recipes
<fasta> thelema: no
<thelema> I'm curious how they do local installs
<fasta> thelema: you can have options.
<thelema> but again I'm distracted from what I need to do.
<fasta> I think everyone just wants as much features to work by default.
<thelema> I wish I could have this conversation another time. I assume thomasga will be a OUD, how about you, fasta?
<thelema> s/a/at/
<fasta> thelema: OUD?
<fasta> thelema: I already know it.
<fasta> thelema: I probably won't.
<thomasga> yes I'll be there (I'm arriving the 12th) and I'm happy to share a beer :-)
<wmeyer> BEER!!!!
<thomasga> :-)
<thomasga> ok, need to go
<thelema> thomasga: great, I'll look you up. (although I don't drink beer)
<thelema> bye
<fasta> thelema: I will just be called a troll ;)
<fasta> bye thelema
<fasta> bye thomasga
<thomasga> bye
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<fasta> How do the economics of those conferences work?
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<fasta> or rather, that conference.
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contempt_ is now known as contempt
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