<wmeyer>
avsm: indeed, I found some ocamlers too (by incident)
<avsm>
hah! who else?
<wmeyer>
avsm: you know who Anil :-)) well, Raphael P
<avsm>
oh yeah, he's back :) also some citrites there who use ocaml, no doubt
<wmeyer>
and Mietek a Polish guy who has started in Citrix
<wmeyer>
it was quite cool, but ocamlers seems to hide still. I just gave a short pitch for 30 sec
<wmeyer>
(quite nervous though)
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<wmeyer>
looking forward when you will have that OCamlLab unit
<wmeyer>
as a balance for F# and Haskell
<wmeyer>
BTW: Could you explain me what is Cambridge ML - I am puzzled
<wmeyer>
i heard that at least twice or three times
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<avsm>
machine learning?
<avsm>
there's a big community doing that too. kind of confusing for OCaml hackers ;-)
<wmeyer>
avsm: yeah, CamML that is ;) double M!
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<pippijn>
fasta: *very* difficult
<pippijn>
fasta: because I don't know where the functions might store what I send
<pippijn>
fasta: Qt often has at least one indirection
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<wmeyer>
hi
<pippijn>
hi wmeyer
<wmeyer>
pippijn: do you generate these bindings?
<pippijn>
yes
<pippijn>
the ocaml side, that is
<wmeyer>
actually, it would be so cool to use both camlp4 and Cquot (once it's finished ;|)
<pippijn>
I hope to not need to generate C++ code
<wmeyer>
ah yes it's C++
<wmeyer>
so no way you could use your AST
<pippijn>
the C++ AST is a little more complex
<wmeyer>
all sorts of problems came from the fact that C++ is such a complicated beast
<pippijn>
I'm pretty reluctant to starting a C++ type-checker
<wmeyer>
yes. I can understand
<wmeyer>
the book for C++ pre TR1 weights like a critical mass of uranium
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<pippijn>
yes
<pippijn>
and the C++0x one is like twice as big
<wmeyer>
well there is a way, perhaps give magic mushrooms to Clang community, make a shamanistic pitch about OCaml and ask them to start rewriting the frontend
<pippijn>
I can write one
<pippijn>
but it would take a long time
<pippijn>
it would be awesome if I did
<wmeyer>
i need to say I admire that
<wmeyer>
once you decide I could collaborate on that
<pippijn>
wmeyer: are you serious about making a C++ front-end?
<pippijn>
if you're serious, we can make one
<wmeyer>
you know, that means basically system like Frama-C could use it
<wmeyer>
I am dead serious
<wmeyer>
+ I work on a real C++ compiler
<pippijn>
oh
<pippijn>
for your job?
<wmeyer>
(at daytime)
<pippijn>
which one?
<wmeyer>
(yes, The ARM Compiler, pssss! :-) )
<wmeyer>
it's C++
<wmeyer>
but the frontend is EDG
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<pippijn>
ah
<pippijn>
okay, yeah
<pippijn>
EDG
<pippijn>
we could of course also get a research licence for EDG and use that
<pippijn>
but that would be so much less cool
<wmeyer>
it's a fair compiler BTW; it does a lot of lowlevel backend tricks, ahead of gcc
<wmeyer>
pippijn: I don't think it will be fun :-)
<pippijn>
actually I would really like to start a new C++ front-end in ocaml
<wmeyer>
(EDG stuff)
<wmeyer>
pippijn: ok let's do it
<wmeyer>
i am ready to start
<pippijn>
do we use a parser generator?
<wmeyer>
i think it's sensible, actually you asked very important question
<wmeyer>
because yes, ideally parser generator would be best
<wmeyer>
but whic one, LALR or Packrat?
<wmeyer>
but hold on, how about your frontend?
<wmeyer>
you want to extend the AST?
<pippijn>
both are kind of impossible
<pippijn>
wmeyer: no, I want to think about a new one
<pippijn>
C++ is super ambiguous
<wmeyer>
ok, i trust
<wmeyer>
but
<pippijn>
and C++0x is necessary
<wmeyer>
why packrat is not viable?
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<pippijn>
packrat.. I haven't tried it, yet
<wmeyer>
i think packrat can parse anything
<wmeyer>
so if i only can suggest, pick one of the packrat parsers with the left recursion
<pippijn>
let me think
<pippijn>
I wonder if we need to type-check while parsing
<pippijn>
as I would really like to not do that
<wmeyer>
then we could have two ASTs
<wmeyer>
lousy one
<wmeyer>
and then another pass to get the AST we want
<pippijn>
in C, I only collect symbols while parsing
<wmeyer>
and third pass to type check
<pippijn>
I don't know if that's enough in C++
<wmeyer>
The good thing is that i can ask a frontend expert
<wmeyer>
what does he think :-)
<wmeyer>
tomorrow
<pippijn>
nice
<wmeyer>
(but they are all hampered by C++)
<wmeyer>
so the answer is: "yes, you need turing complete language in your actions!"
<wmeyer>
so what clang does?
<pippijn>
it does some type checking during parsing
<pippijn>
and some later
<wmeyer>
so maybe first thing to do is to just, recognise the problem
<wmeyer>
what actually we need during parsing
<wmeyer>
otherwise we end up in mess
<pippijn>
we don't *need* to type-check during parsng
<pippijn>
if we use GLR
<wmeyer>
(well not mess, but clearly it would be nicer to do the right thing)
<pippijn>
I'm actually in favour of GLR
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<wmeyer>
I am with you, if that's sufficient
<pippijn>
I already have a GLR C++ parser stolen from Elsa
<wmeyer>
(but packrat can produce really good error messages)
<pippijn>
right, Elkhound produces very bad error messages
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<pippijn>
but maybe I can improve elkhound
<wmeyer>
so how much lines is it?
<pippijn>
the grammar?
<wmeyer>
yes
<wmeyer>
ah elsa
<wmeyer>
yes i've heard about it ...
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<wmeyer>
i can just say: please don't :-)
<pippijn>
why?
<wmeyer>
you know I know a really capable hacker (perhaps the most capable hacker i ever met), he hacked on Elsa in the previous job and used that to perform some static analysis in Lisp. He strugled.
<wmeyer>
(not because ot lisp or C++, because of Elsa)
<wmeyer>
I'll ping him tomorrow
<pippijn>
well
<wmeyer>
i remember when he was tweaking these rules
<pippijn>
I hacked on elsa, too
<pippijn>
in C++
<pippijn>
I didn't think it was that bad
<wmeyer>
OK, let me just ask him, I might be just a bit biased
<wmeyer>
ideally we should have something to not struggle later
<wmeyer>
(and not recursive descent)
<pippijn>
I'll send you the C++ parser I have now
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<wmeyer>
if you publish it somewhere in a private git it would be even better
<wmeyer>
if you want i can host it on my server
<pippijn>
ah
<wmeyer>
pippijn: I'm not bullshiting about C++ frontend :-)
<wmeyer>
it looks like it could somewhat promote the language (not C++)
<wmeyer>
and in general is useful for others
<wmeyer>
(Frama-C, or even Coccinelle)
<pippijn>
I am very unhappy about frama-c
<wmeyer>
i don't know; haven't used that
<pippijn>
I don't think the people who work on it are hobbyists
<wmeyer>
(too much)
<pippijn>
they do it for a living and therefore try to get people to pay them for workin on it
<pippijn>
also, I asked a question on the mailing list and nobody answered
<pippijn>
it seemed like a pretty simple question for someone who knows frama-c
<pippijn>
"how to tell frama-c my 'alloc' function allocates?"
<wmeyer>
and alloc is in a different library?
<wmeyer>
(otherwise frama-c could see that it uses malloc)
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<pippijn>
no
<pippijn>
(I think)
<pippijn>
I don't remember now
<pippijn>
but potentially yes
<pippijn>
not a different library, but a different file
<pippijn>
but potentially a different library, why not?
<pippijn>
there should be a way to tell it that
<pippijn>
the problem is the return type
<pippijn>
malloc returns void*
<pippijn>
and frama-c handles that specially, so malloc in fact returns T*
<pippijn>
if I make a void* alloc() function, it doesn't work, complaining that casts are not supported by frama-c
<pippijn>
or jessie
<wmeyer>
that's suppose for alias analysis
<pippijn>
which doesn't exist, I guess
<pippijn>
if you forbid any casts, you effectively forbid aliasing
<wmeyer>
you can have aliasing in a lack of casts
<wmeyer>
consider
<pippijn>
well yes
<pippijn>
of course
<pippijn>
but no hidden aliasing
<pippijn>
no aliasing through char*
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<pippijn>
no aliasing via void*
<pippijn>
all aliases are directly known by types
<pippijn>
(except when you have interior pointers)
<pippijn>
but then you also have the types
<wmeyer>
yes, where pointer arithemtic is allowed then alias analysis is required, but also is never precise
<pippijn>
can you give me your ssh public key?
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<wmeyer>
pippijn: you are away, I can't send a private message
<pippijn>
I answered
<pippijn>
what should I call the repo?
<pippijn>
I have no name now, it's in ~/code/wip/lang/foo
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<wmeyer>
coxfront ;-)
<wmeyer>
ok
<pippijn>
cxxparse?
<pippijn>
or c++parse
<wmeyer>
could be
<pippijn>
wmeyer: gmail flagged your mail as spam
<pippijn>
(jfyi)
<wmeyer>
i think we will come up with something better
<wmeyer>
waa
<wmeyer>
no idea Y
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<wmeyer>
post commit hook would be good, feel free to add my mail
<pippijn>
you might need a modified elkhound to generate it, I'm not sure
<pippijn>
let me check
<pippijn>
ok, I'm not sure you need these changes, but they are minimal
<pippijn>
okay, you definitely don't need them
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<ImAlsoGreg>
Sorry to interrupt your conversation. I wanted to suggest a name: cparseparse
<pippijn>
why?
<ImAlsoGreg>
Just silly. Sounds like a mispronunciation of cplusplus
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<pippijn>
ah
<pippijn>
not bad
<ImAlsoGreg>
Dumb comment - this is why I prefaced with an apology :)
<pippijn>
I called the repo cxxparse for now
<pippijn>
I like it, though
<pippijn>
silly is good
<wmeyer>
i like it too :-)
<ImAlsoGreg>
Hah, thanks. Enjoying listening about your project.
<wmeyer>
lol
<wmeyer>
cparseparse - that has multilayer deep meaning
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<ImAlsoGreg>
If it holds up technically on that level, it's completely by accident!
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<ImAlsoGreg>
(from my end, that is)
<wmeyer>
yes, we appreciate
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<hcarty>
thelema: open Batteries vs open Core.Std runtime cost - they may differ due to being unpacked vs packed. Or perhaps some cost associated with C stubs. Or initialization.
<hcarty>
thelema: I'm very glad 'open Batteries' doesn't impose that kind of penalty though. That would be unpleasant.
<hcarty>
thelema: The application of record dismbiguation to trunk looks interesting. I've been following the associated bug. I'll have to brew it and see how it works.
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<pippijn>
hcarty: runtime cost in a script (that's compile time cost, I think)
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<Kakadu>
pippijn: How do you do?
<pippijn>
fine
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<Kakadu>
what about smoke?
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<pippijn>
it's nice
<pippijn>
but I'm running into the same issues you ran into
<pippijn>
and now I'm working on a GLR parser generator
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<Kakadu>
RNGLR, CYK or something else?
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<mcclurmc>
are there any opam people around? i've been having an issue with doing an 'opam update', where a few packages depend on 'the unknown package spotlib', and the update fails
<mcclurmc>
the weird thing is that those packages depend on a version of spotlib that *is* in the opam directory
<mcclurmc>
i just build opam from master, btw
<mietek>
Same here
<mietek>
This also happens with a fresh opam install, after the first 'opam init'
<thomasga>
mcclurmc: I'm there
<mcclurmc>
hey thomasga
<mcclurmc>
any ideas?
<mietek>
thomasga: hi
<thomasga>
I've merged this morning a pull request from furuse
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<thomasga>
I'll have a look
<mcclurmc>
cool, thanks
<mcclurmc>
btw, i just created a new compiler target for jocaml 4. shall i make a pull request?
<thomasga>
cool!
<thomasga>
so yes :-)
<thomasga>
I'm curious to see which package still compile
<thomasga>
packages
<mcclurmc>
yeah, i haven't tested it much in that respect :(
<mcclurmc>
but i figure that pushing it into opam is the best way to find out
<thomasga>
mcclurmc: are you using the defaut repository ?
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<mcclurmc>
i have the default repo and my github branch set as remotes
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<mcclurmc>
btw, is there a better way to test a local opam-repository? i tried adding a remote with a file:/// url, but it didn't work
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<thomasga>
'opam remote -add <name> /local/path
<mcclurmc>
ah, better
<thomasga>
cannot repro your problem
<thomasga>
so this could be an issue with your git repo
<mcclurmc>
the machine that i'm having an issue with doesn't have my repo added as a remote
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<mcclurmc>
also, mietek's problem occurred on 'opam init'
<mcclurmc>
mietek: have you tried recompiling opam today? can you repro with a build from the current master?
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<mietek>
mcclurmc: trying
<mcclurmc>
thomasga: ah, it looks like i'm also using the opam-repo-dev remote (jon set up opam on this machine for mirage development)
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<thomasga>
mcclurmc, mietek: the latest version of opam should fix your problem (or you can upgrade to ocaml 4.00.0)
<thomasga>
(but I guess you don't have a mirage compiler for 4.00.0 yet)
<mietek>
It looks like the problem is fixed
<mcclurmc>
thomasga: thanks, jon's upgraded to the latest opam and it's working on our build box now
<mietek>
The spotlib message is a [WARNING] now
<mcclurmc>
thomasga: i'm having a problem with tyxml 'depopts' on ocamlduce, which doesn't exist in the repo
<eikke>
if I have the following: type ('a, 'b) lens = ('a -> 'b) * ('a -> 'b -> 'a), can I have a function "let multi_update (a : 'a) (us : (('a, 'b) lens * 'b) list) = ...", where the 'us' list could contain both (('a, int) lens, 1) as well as (('a, string) lens, "Hello") ?
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<thomasga>
mcclurmc: is it blocking ?
<mcclurmc>
thomasga: yes, opam update fails
<eikke>
(in other words, can I create something of type "forall b. (('a -> b -> 'a) * b) list"
<mcclurmc>
is there a workaround for this kind of thing?
<thomasga>
even with the latest version of opam ?
<mcclurmc>
let me try, just a minute...
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<mcclurmc>
thomasga: yes, it's fixed in master. the problem is now a warning, not fatal
<mcclurmc>
thomasga: fyi, JonL has set up a mirage CI environment based on opam, where he recompiles opam from master on each build. it should be a pretty good CI test for opam
<thomasga>
cool! would it be possible to have access to the build reports?
<djcoin>
=)
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<mcclurmc>
i'll check...
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<mcclurmc>
thomasga: we're going to move this CI thing to an external environment soon, once it's got the kinks worked out
<mcclurmc>
thomasga: i'll make sure he gets you guys access
<mcclurmc>
thomasga: do you still have access to our network in citrix?
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<thomasga>
mcclurmc: it seems so
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<mcclurmc>
thomasga: sorry to keep pinging you with errors, but now i have the problem: "Unable to find a repository containing ocamlfind.1.3.4", even though the .opam file is present
<Kakadu_>
eikke: your 1st message looks like you want to put objects of different sort at the same list....
<Kakadu_>
eikke: I'm right?
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<Kakadu_>
eikke: `differennt sort` means heterogen data types
* Kakadu_
have read an articles about existentionals in Haskell
<Kakadu_>
eikke: AFAIK, OCaml does not have Haskell`s problems cause it have objects with duck-typing
<eikke>
Kakadu_: that's about it indeed, although the usage wouldn't introduce any type-unsafety
<eikke>
it'd be something like List.map (fun (f, v) -> f v) [(fun i -> (), 1); (fun s -> (), "Hello")]
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<thomasga>
mcclurmc: oamlfind 1.3.4 doesn't exist anymore in opam.ocamlpro.com as it was a duplicate of 1.3.3. Do you have the dependency to 1.3.4 hard-coded in one of your additional package ?
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<Kakadu_>
Somebody, help eikke
* Kakadu_
is confused by this monomorphism
<Kakadu_>
let f () : 'a . (('a->'a) * 'a) list = [ ( ((^)"asfd"), "hello"); ( ((+)1), 11) ] ;;
<Kakadu_>
is uncompilable by some reason
<eikke>
that makes sense since 'a is string, and later on it should be 'int' which is not possible
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<Kakadu_>
aaaah
<Kakadu_>
misunderstanding
<eikke>
it's similar though
<Kakadu_>
eikke: I defintly think you should use OOP
<eikke>
in my case, 'a is "fixed", and b is variable, but only withing lists of an element
<eikke>
Kakadu_: then I rather don't write the function ;)
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<mcclurmc>
thomasga: i have only the official repository set up now, and i still have an ocamlfind-1.3.4.opam file
<mcclurmc>
thomasga: did opam not clean this file up properly?
<mcclurmc>
should i remove it manually, or shall i do more testing?
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<mcclurmc>
thomasga: aha! i just did opam update, and it removed the file. lets see if this works now...
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<dsheets>
is there some magical way to intercept fs syscalls in unix child procs? am using lwt. alternately, a recommended way to get named pipes or temporary files while wrapped in lwt?
<dsheets>
hmm… a generic ocaml ld_preload shared object?
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<dsheets>
clearly that approach is insane… ffi it is
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