gildor changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 3.12.1 http://bit.ly/nNVIVH
<wmeyer> avsm: indeed, I found some ocamlers too (by incident)
<avsm> hah! who else?
<wmeyer> avsm: you know who Anil :-)) well, Raphael P
<avsm> oh yeah, he's back :) also some citrites there who use ocaml, no doubt
<wmeyer> and Mietek a Polish guy who has started in Citrix
<wmeyer> it was quite cool, but ocamlers seems to hide still. I just gave a short pitch for 30 sec
<wmeyer> (quite nervous though)
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<wmeyer> looking forward when you will have that OCamlLab unit
<wmeyer> as a balance for F# and Haskell
<wmeyer> BTW: Could you explain me what is Cambridge ML - I am puzzled
<wmeyer> i heard that at least twice or three times
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<avsm> machine learning?
<avsm> there's a big community doing that too. kind of confusing for OCaml hackers ;-)
<wmeyer> avsm: yeah, CamML that is ;) double M!
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<pippijn> fasta: *very* difficult
<pippijn> fasta: because I don't know where the functions might store what I send
<pippijn> fasta: Qt often has at least one indirection
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<wmeyer> hi
<pippijn> hi wmeyer
<wmeyer> pippijn: do you generate these bindings?
<pippijn> yes
<pippijn> the ocaml side, that is
<wmeyer> actually, it would be so cool to use both camlp4 and Cquot (once it's finished ;|)
<pippijn> I hope to not need to generate C++ code
<wmeyer> ah yes it's C++
<wmeyer> so no way you could use your AST
<pippijn> the C++ AST is a little more complex
<wmeyer> all sorts of problems came from the fact that C++ is such a complicated beast
<pippijn> I'm pretty reluctant to starting a C++ type-checker
<wmeyer> yes. I can understand
<wmeyer> the book for C++ pre TR1 weights like a critical mass of uranium
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<pippijn> yes
<pippijn> and the C++0x one is like twice as big
<wmeyer> well there is a way, perhaps give magic mushrooms to Clang community, make a shamanistic pitch about OCaml and ask them to start rewriting the frontend
<pippijn> I can write one
<pippijn> but it would take a long time
<pippijn> it would be awesome if I did
<wmeyer> i need to say I admire that
<wmeyer> once you decide I could collaborate on that
<pippijn> wmeyer: are you serious about making a C++ front-end?
<pippijn> if you're serious, we can make one
<wmeyer> you know, that means basically system like Frama-C could use it
<wmeyer> I am dead serious
<wmeyer> + I work on a real C++ compiler
<pippijn> oh
<pippijn> for your job?
<wmeyer> (at daytime)
<pippijn> which one?
<wmeyer> (yes, The ARM Compiler, pssss! :-) )
<wmeyer> it's C++
<wmeyer> but the frontend is EDG
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<pippijn> ah
<pippijn> okay, yeah
<pippijn> EDG
<pippijn> we could of course also get a research licence for EDG and use that
<pippijn> but that would be so much less cool
<wmeyer> it's a fair compiler BTW; it does a lot of lowlevel backend tricks, ahead of gcc
<wmeyer> pippijn: I don't think it will be fun :-)
<pippijn> actually I would really like to start a new C++ front-end in ocaml
<wmeyer> (EDG stuff)
<wmeyer> pippijn: ok let's do it
<wmeyer> i am ready to start
<pippijn> do we use a parser generator?
<wmeyer> i think it's sensible, actually you asked very important question
<wmeyer> because yes, ideally parser generator would be best
<wmeyer> but whic one, LALR or Packrat?
<wmeyer> but hold on, how about your frontend?
<wmeyer> you want to extend the AST?
<pippijn> both are kind of impossible
<pippijn> wmeyer: no, I want to think about a new one
<pippijn> C++ is super ambiguous
<wmeyer> ok, i trust
<wmeyer> but
<pippijn> and C++0x is necessary
<wmeyer> why packrat is not viable?
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<pippijn> packrat.. I haven't tried it, yet
<wmeyer> i think packrat can parse anything
<wmeyer> so if i only can suggest, pick one of the packrat parsers with the left recursion
<pippijn> let me think
<pippijn> I wonder if we need to type-check while parsing
<pippijn> as I would really like to not do that
<wmeyer> then we could have two ASTs
<wmeyer> lousy one
<wmeyer> and then another pass to get the AST we want
<pippijn> in C, I only collect symbols while parsing
<wmeyer> and third pass to type check
<pippijn> I don't know if that's enough in C++
<wmeyer> The good thing is that i can ask a frontend expert
<wmeyer> what does he think :-)
<wmeyer> tomorrow
<pippijn> nice
<wmeyer> (but they are all hampered by C++)
<wmeyer> so the answer is: "yes, you need turing complete language in your actions!"
<wmeyer> so what clang does?
<pippijn> it does some type checking during parsing
<pippijn> and some later
<wmeyer> so maybe first thing to do is to just, recognise the problem
<wmeyer> what actually we need during parsing
<wmeyer> otherwise we end up in mess
<pippijn> we don't *need* to type-check during parsng
<pippijn> if we use GLR
<wmeyer> (well not mess, but clearly it would be nicer to do the right thing)
<pippijn> I'm actually in favour of GLR
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<wmeyer> I am with you, if that's sufficient
<pippijn> I already have a GLR C++ parser stolen from Elsa
<wmeyer> (but packrat can produce really good error messages)
<pippijn> right, Elkhound produces very bad error messages
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<pippijn> but maybe I can improve elkhound
<wmeyer> so how much lines is it?
<pippijn> the grammar?
<wmeyer> yes
<wmeyer> ah elsa
<wmeyer> yes i've heard about it ...
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<wmeyer> i can just say: please don't :-)
<pippijn> why?
<wmeyer> you know I know a really capable hacker (perhaps the most capable hacker i ever met), he hacked on Elsa in the previous job and used that to perform some static analysis in Lisp. He strugled.
<wmeyer> (not because ot lisp or C++, because of Elsa)
<wmeyer> I'll ping him tomorrow
<pippijn> well
<wmeyer> i remember when he was tweaking these rules
<pippijn> I hacked on elsa, too
<pippijn> in C++
<pippijn> I didn't think it was that bad
<wmeyer> OK, let me just ask him, I might be just a bit biased
<wmeyer> ideally we should have something to not struggle later
<wmeyer> (and not recursive descent)
<pippijn> I'll send you the C++ parser I have now
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<wmeyer> if you publish it somewhere in a private git it would be even better
<wmeyer> if you want i can host it on my server
<pippijn> ah
<wmeyer> pippijn: I'm not bullshiting about C++ frontend :-)
<wmeyer> it looks like it could somewhat promote the language (not C++)
<wmeyer> and in general is useful for others
<wmeyer> (Frama-C, or even Coccinelle)
<pippijn> I am very unhappy about frama-c
<wmeyer> i don't know; haven't used that
<pippijn> I don't think the people who work on it are hobbyists
<wmeyer> (too much)
<pippijn> they do it for a living and therefore try to get people to pay them for workin on it
<pippijn> also, I asked a question on the mailing list and nobody answered
<pippijn> it seemed like a pretty simple question for someone who knows frama-c
<pippijn> "how to tell frama-c my 'alloc' function allocates?"
<wmeyer> and alloc is in a different library?
<wmeyer> (otherwise frama-c could see that it uses malloc)
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<pippijn> no
<pippijn> (I think)
<pippijn> I don't remember now
<pippijn> but potentially yes
<pippijn> not a different library, but a different file
<pippijn> but potentially a different library, why not?
<pippijn> there should be a way to tell it that
<pippijn> the problem is the return type
<pippijn> malloc returns void*
<pippijn> and frama-c handles that specially, so malloc in fact returns T*
<pippijn> if I make a void* alloc() function, it doesn't work, complaining that casts are not supported by frama-c
<pippijn> or jessie
<wmeyer> that's suppose for alias analysis
<pippijn> which doesn't exist, I guess
<pippijn> if you forbid any casts, you effectively forbid aliasing
<wmeyer> you can have aliasing in a lack of casts
<wmeyer> consider
<pippijn> well yes
<pippijn> of course
<pippijn> but no hidden aliasing
<pippijn> no aliasing through char*
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<pippijn> no aliasing via void*
<pippijn> all aliases are directly known by types
<pippijn> (except when you have interior pointers)
<pippijn> but then you also have the types
<wmeyer> yes, where pointer arithemtic is allowed then alias analysis is required, but also is never precise
<pippijn> can you give me your ssh public key?
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<wmeyer> pippijn: you are away, I can't send a private message
<pippijn> I answered
<pippijn> what should I call the repo?
<pippijn> I have no name now, it's in ~/code/wip/lang/foo
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<wmeyer> coxfront ;-)
<wmeyer> ok
<pippijn> cxxparse?
<pippijn> or c++parse
<wmeyer> could be
<pippijn> wmeyer: gmail flagged your mail as spam
<pippijn> (jfyi)
<wmeyer> i think we will come up with something better
<wmeyer> waa
<wmeyer> no idea Y
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<wmeyer> post commit hook would be good, feel free to add my mail
<pippijn> hmm
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<wmeyer> send me the url to check out
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<pippijn> wmeyer: here is the generated code you need to try it: http://paste.xinu.at/Ap6Rkm/
<pippijn> you might need a modified elkhound to generate it, I'm not sure
<pippijn> let me check
<pippijn> ok, I'm not sure you need these changes, but they are minimal
<pippijn> okay, you definitely don't need them
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<ImAlsoGreg> Sorry to interrupt your conversation. I wanted to suggest a name: cparseparse
<pippijn> why?
<ImAlsoGreg> Just silly. Sounds like a mispronunciation of cplusplus
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<pippijn> ah
<pippijn> not bad
<ImAlsoGreg> Dumb comment - this is why I prefaced with an apology :)
<pippijn> I called the repo cxxparse for now
<pippijn> I like it, though
<pippijn> silly is good
<wmeyer> i like it too :-)
<ImAlsoGreg> Hah, thanks. Enjoying listening about your project.
<wmeyer> lol
<wmeyer> cparseparse - that has multilayer deep meaning
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<ImAlsoGreg> If it holds up technically on that level, it's completely by accident!
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<ImAlsoGreg> (from my end, that is)
<wmeyer> yes, we appreciate
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<hcarty> thelema: open Batteries vs open Core.Std runtime cost - they may differ due to being unpacked vs packed. Or perhaps some cost associated with C stubs. Or initialization.
<hcarty> thelema: I'm very glad 'open Batteries' doesn't impose that kind of penalty though. That would be unpleasant.
<hcarty> thelema: The application of record dismbiguation to trunk looks interesting. I've been following the associated bug. I'll have to brew it and see how it works.
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<pippijn> hcarty: runtime cost in a script (that's compile time cost, I think)
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<Kakadu> pippijn: How do you do?
<pippijn> fine
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<Kakadu> what about smoke?
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<pippijn> it's nice
<pippijn> but I'm running into the same issues you ran into
<pippijn> and now I'm working on a GLR parser generator
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<Kakadu> RNGLR, CYK or something else?
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<mcclurmc> are there any opam people around? i've been having an issue with doing an 'opam update', where a few packages depend on 'the unknown package spotlib', and the update fails
<mcclurmc> the weird thing is that those packages depend on a version of spotlib that *is* in the opam directory
<mcclurmc> i just build opam from master, btw
<mietek> Same here
<mietek> This also happens with a fresh opam install, after the first 'opam init'
<thomasga> mcclurmc: I'm there
<mcclurmc> hey thomasga
<mcclurmc> any ideas?
<mietek> thomasga: hi
<thomasga> I've merged this morning a pull request from furuse
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<thomasga> I'll have a look
<mcclurmc> cool, thanks
<mcclurmc> btw, i just created a new compiler target for jocaml 4. shall i make a pull request?
<thomasga> cool!
<thomasga> so yes :-)
<thomasga> I'm curious to see which package still compile
<thomasga> packages
<mcclurmc> yeah, i haven't tested it much in that respect :(
<mcclurmc> but i figure that pushing it into opam is the best way to find out
<thomasga> mcclurmc: are you using the defaut repository ?
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<mcclurmc> i have the default repo and my github branch set as remotes
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<mcclurmc> btw, is there a better way to test a local opam-repository? i tried adding a remote with a file:/// url, but it didn't work
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<thomasga> 'opam remote -add <name> /local/path
<mcclurmc> ah, better
<thomasga> cannot repro your problem
<thomasga> so this could be an issue with your git repo
<mcclurmc> the machine that i'm having an issue with doesn't have my repo added as a remote
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<mcclurmc> also, mietek's problem occurred on 'opam init'
<mcclurmc> mietek: have you tried recompiling opam today? can you repro with a build from the current master?
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<mietek> mcclurmc: trying
<mcclurmc> thomasga: ah, it looks like i'm also using the opam-repo-dev remote (jon set up opam on this machine for mirage development)
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<thomasga> mcclurmc, mietek: the latest version of opam should fix your problem (or you can upgrade to ocaml 4.00.0)
<thomasga> (but I guess you don't have a mirage compiler for 4.00.0 yet)
<mietek> It looks like the problem is fixed
<mcclurmc> thomasga: thanks, jon's upgraded to the latest opam and it's working on our build box now
<mietek> The spotlib message is a [WARNING] now
<mcclurmc> thomasga: i'm having a problem with tyxml 'depopts' on ocamlduce, which doesn't exist in the repo
<eikke> if I have the following: type ('a, 'b) lens = ('a -> 'b) * ('a -> 'b -> 'a), can I have a function "let multi_update (a : 'a) (us : (('a, 'b) lens * 'b) list) = ...", where the 'us' list could contain both (('a, int) lens, 1) as well as (('a, string) lens, "Hello") ?
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<thomasga> mcclurmc: is it blocking ?
<mcclurmc> thomasga: yes, opam update fails
<eikke> (in other words, can I create something of type "forall b. (('a -> b -> 'a) * b) list"
<mcclurmc> is there a workaround for this kind of thing?
<thomasga> even with the latest version of opam ?
<mcclurmc> let me try, just a minute...
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<mcclurmc> thomasga: yes, it's fixed in master. the problem is now a warning, not fatal
<mcclurmc> thomasga: fyi, JonL has set up a mirage CI environment based on opam, where he recompiles opam from master on each build. it should be a pretty good CI test for opam
<thomasga> cool! would it be possible to have access to the build reports?
<djcoin> =)
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<mcclurmc> i'll check...
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<mcclurmc> thomasga: we're going to move this CI thing to an external environment soon, once it's got the kinks worked out
<mcclurmc> thomasga: i'll make sure he gets you guys access
<mcclurmc> thomasga: do you still have access to our network in citrix?
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<thomasga> mcclurmc: it seems so
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<mcclurmc> thomasga: sorry to keep pinging you with errors, but now i have the problem: "Unable to find a repository containing ocamlfind.1.3.4", even though the .opam file is present
<Kakadu_> eikke: your 1st message looks like you want to put objects of different sort at the same list....
<Kakadu_> eikke: I'm right?
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<Kakadu_> eikke: `differennt sort` means heterogen data types
* Kakadu_ have read an articles about existentionals in Haskell
<Kakadu_> eikke: AFAIK, OCaml does not have Haskell`s problems cause it have objects with duck-typing
<eikke> Kakadu_: that's about it indeed, although the usage wouldn't introduce any type-unsafety
<eikke> it'd be something like List.map (fun (f, v) -> f v) [(fun i -> (), 1); (fun s -> (), "Hello")]
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<thomasga> mcclurmc: oamlfind 1.3.4 doesn't exist anymore in opam.ocamlpro.com as it was a duplicate of 1.3.3. Do you have the dependency to 1.3.4 hard-coded in one of your additional package ?
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<Kakadu_> Somebody, help eikke
* Kakadu_ is confused by this monomorphism
<Kakadu_> let f () : 'a . (('a->'a) * 'a) list = [ ( ((^)"asfd"), "hello"); ( ((+)1), 11) ] ;;
<Kakadu_> is uncompilable by some reason
<eikke> that makes sense since 'a is string, and later on it should be 'int' which is not possible
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<Kakadu_> aaaah
<Kakadu_> misunderstanding
<eikke> it's similar though
<Kakadu_> eikke: I defintly think you should use OOP
<eikke> in my case, 'a is "fixed", and b is variable, but only withing lists of an element
<eikke> Kakadu_: then I rather don't write the function ;)
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<mcclurmc> thomasga: i have only the official repository set up now, and i still have an ocamlfind-1.3.4.opam file
<mcclurmc> thomasga: did opam not clean this file up properly?
<mcclurmc> should i remove it manually, or shall i do more testing?
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<mcclurmc> thomasga: aha! i just did opam update, and it removed the file. lets see if this works now...
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<eikke> here's the gist of my lens-question some time ago: https://gist.github.com/3800351
<eikke> boils down to line 18-25 and 62-70
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<dsheets> is there some magical way to intercept fs syscalls in unix child procs? am using lwt. alternately, a recommended way to get named pipes or temporary files while wrapped in lwt?
<dsheets> hmm… a generic ocaml ld_preload shared object?
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<dsheets> clearly that approach is insane… ffi it is
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