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<Kakadu_>
Does somebody know how awful is Scala after ML languages?
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<companion_cube>
Kakadu_: no idea
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<companion_cube>
the anonymous function syntax and lack of curryfication is ugly, but otoh you have subtyping and implicits everywhere
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<ousado>
Kakadu_: hard to say, scala is quite a beast.
<Kakadu_>
companion_cube: it seems that Scala's type declarations are a little bit crazy
<flux>
I think I've heard it being described as the C++ of functional languages
<flux>
or java
<flux>
but I suppose I still should take a good look at it some time :)
<companion_cube>
is there a way to tell ocamlopt to look in some .cmi file for modules signatures?
<ousado>
flux: I just had to dscipline myself to not say that
<companion_cube>
(I want to build a .cmxs plugin that depends on some .cmi, but does not link against anything)
<flux>
ousado, but you implied, with the 'beast', right?-)
<ousado>
yes
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<ousado>
but more in a good way, really, the higher kinded types are quite powerful
<flux>
well, templates are quite powerful :)
<ousado>
it also has nice metaprogramming features by now
<ousado>
indeed
<ousado>
(I like C++ for what it taught me)
<flux>
actually c++ seems much nicer now that it has auto and lambda
<ousado>
and variadic templates
<flux>
and very few languages still have a way to precisely automatically account for resources other than memory
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<hcarty>
thomasga: Does opam provide a mechanism to say that package A can work in place of package B? As an example, libfoo.1.0.0 and libfoo-dev.snapshot where the -dev package says it 'provides' libfoo for other packages.
<smondet>
hcarty: you can do that with 3 packages: you can have a package libfoo that depends on libfoo-dev OR libfoo-just-the-lib
<smondet>
(but if not specified, when installing libfoo opam will pick one of the two randomly)
<hcarty>
smondet: Ok, so I would need to locally/separately repackage the libfoo as libfoo-just-the-lib and keep that repackaged version and the wrapper version in sync with upstream changes
<smondet>
(it is just one possibility, maybe there is some way more clever :) )
<hcarty>
smondet: Thanks for the suggestion!
<hcarty>
A way to make package B pretend to be package A for dependency resolution purposes would be nice though
<gasche>
is Merlin able to provide feedback about where a constructor or field comes from?
<gasche>
if so, you may want to say it in the discussion
<gasche>
(I agree with Leo that out-of-scope constructors should be an error by default, but IDE tooling like Merlin help reduces the risks associated to this feature)
<rks_>
gasche: yes it does
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<gasche>
sorry, should have pinged you too
<rks_>
no problem
<rks_>
and maybe I misunderstood your question gasche
<def-lkb>
hum, merlin has access to the environment… The information is somewhere, but not provided to the end-user (unless I am missing your point)
<rks_>
but with vim, when merlin completes fields or constructors, it indicates its type
<rks_>
haha great def-lkb, we're not answering the same thing, I'm so not looking like an idiot right now :'
<thizanne>
fortunately you prevented this by saying "maybe you were not clear enough for me to understand", which was quite clever
<gasche>
what I would expect is something like, if I ask "give me definition place of this name" of a field 'foo' or constructor 'Foo', to get M.N.Foo
<rks_>
thizanne: I'm learning a lot from f a sta :)
<thizanne>
:D
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<def-lkb>
gasche: easy to achieve/improve, I didn't try, but actually it probably prints the path relative to current scope, not exactly what you want
<rks_>
(on the bottom screen I completed without a prefix, so it proposes contents as well but "meh")
<rks_>
of course the first case is not what you'd want, but I don't think it would be hard to change that
<def-lkb>
(the upper screen looks more like a failure ;))
<rks_>
(well def-lkb, it's not)
<gasche>
hm the (approx) is not the information I'm looking for
<rks_>
(but yes, it's here to show that the new "features" of trunk are not supported, yet)
<rks_>
yes, of course
<gasche>
I'd like an output that says that it comes from the module X (with the rest of the information that is of course nice)
<def-lkb>
(the (approx) means we had to rely on heuristic rather than standard ocaml rules to resolve the path)
<rks_>
well, in the "open case", asking the type of "x" in "x.foo" will give you X.t
<rks_>
(and if you ask that information on foo, or if you grow the enclosing it will give you "int", of course)
<thelema_>
I think it will be necessary to get the module information from the compiler to get it right in the presence of implied modules on record fields
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<rks_>
btw gasche, I don't re
<rks_>
member the discussion on that "new feature"
<rks_>
(and I didn't follow much of it anyway)
<gasche>
both Alain and I blogged about it
<gasche>
you have no excuse
<rks_>
what is the expected behavior if you don't have enough information to "disambiguate" ?
<thizanne>
if the "new feature" is record disambiguation, there is a gagallium blog entry by gasche
<thizanne>
oh, too late
<rks_>
and I read both articles at the time gasche :p
<def-lkb>
thelema_: we do use the compiler
<thelema_>
def-lkb: not for (approx), right?
<rks_>
but if you cover that in your article, I'll glady go read it again
<def-lkb>
thelema_: yes :), approx is just a fallback to try to provide an information rather than just fail
<gasche>
rks_: it falls back to the "last one entered in scope" rule, with a warning if there are more than one in scope
<thelema_>
def-lkb: and what I'm saying is that fallback won't provide the needed information in this case
<def-lkb>
thelema_: but as we improve error recovery, approx is becoming less useful
<gasche>
(the idea of the warning is to warn that the code meaning would not be preserved by addition of more type annotations)
<def-lkb>
thelema_: ok, right, sorry, I misunderstood
<rks_>
ok gasche, that doesn't feel too secure, but it's a reasonable choice I guess :'
<rks_>
(thank you!)
<gasche>
it's also the only choice that preserves backward compatibility of programs
<rks_>
but who cares about that :-'
<def-lkb>
:D
<gasche>
will one of you three members of the Merlin gang give a talk to the upcomping Paris meeting?
<gasche>
if you haven't planned that, you should probably contact Fabrice
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<def-lkb>
gasche: yes, why not. I feel a bit ashamed that the emacs mode distributed in official release was a bit "fragile"
<gasche>
alang like Alex?
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<gasche>
def-lkb: does that mean that you're sending an email right now?
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<def-lkb>
gasche: :), lemme check my agenda before…
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<gasche>
thelema_: I'm surprised by this "1 second per file" number you give in your bug report
<gasche>
may there be other performance troubles than simply the .merlin file parsing?
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<gasche>
def-lkb reports that in his experience, large "open" do take some time
<thelema_>
gasche: not particularly.
<gasche>
or maybe you are over NFS or in a strange setup
<thelema_>
The merlin file does reference batteries
<thelema_>
everything is local on my mahcine
<thelema_>
*machine
<gasche>
and the .merlin file is reasonably small, I suppose
<asmanur_>
thelema_: could you put relevant messages and merlin input/output on the bt (by issuing (setq merlin-debug t) ?
<thelema_>
PKG batteries
<thelema_>
B _build/
<thelema_>
S .
<thelema_>
that's my .merlin file
<thelema_>
asmanur_: sure
<gasche>
then there is something else than simply "share .merlin parsing"
<asmanur_>
thanks
<gasche>
to this observed performance problem
<thelema_>
shraing it would reduce the cost from 1/file to 1/project
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<thelema_>
but making the per-file cost tiny would be nice too.
<asmanur_>
thelema_: it would be nice, but I believe the parsing of .merlin files should be in the toplevel
<asmanur_>
as now, each mode for merlin has to write a parser for those which is a bit uneffective maintenance-wise
<thelema_>
odd; restarting with merlin-debug=t doesn't have the same slowness; let's see if I can reproduce the slowness when I turn it off again
<thelema_>
ah, n/m; it was... I dunno what it was, my desktop got broken, I think, and not as many files got loaded
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<thelema_>
specifically not files in a merlin project
<def-lkb>
there is a weird quadratic behavior that may trigger :/
<def-lkb>
the path are stored in a list, duplicates are filtered only when loading from findlib package
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<thelema_>
so it's slowly processing _build over and over?
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<def-lkb>
as far as I can tell, not in your case: it also loads batteries PKG, so path is filtered
<thelema_>
ok
<def-lkb>
anyway, you're not sure anymore the problem came from merlin?
<thelema_>
correct. If I can reproduce, I'll paste any debug that I get into a new bug.
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* gasche
indirectly solved a bug report
<thelema_>
it seems now I'm getting these errors, I think from merlin: File mode specification error: (wrong-type-argument number-or-marker-p nil)
<thelema_>
whenever I open a .ml file in a project that has .merlin
<def-lkb>
thelema_: are you on official release or git ?
<thelema_>
opam
<asmanur_>
thelema_: could you give me the value of `buffer-name' for this buffer?
<thelema_>
asmanur_: I think "red_rem.ml", although maybe you'll have to help me with emacs internals
<thelema_>
I only know how to run elisp by switching to ~/.emacs and using C-c C-e
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<gasche>
you can actually use C-C C-e in any buffer, including the .ml one
<gasche>
just call it below something that is an elisp phrase
<thelema_>
gasche: oh, neat
<asmanur_>
thelema_: M-: buffer-name<ret>
<asmanur_>
the question is: does it start with a ~ or a /
<Anarchos>
bernardofpc i recognize an archlinux style
<rks_>
Anarchos: how could you here?
<Anarchos>
rks_ because i already saw the bottom of the screens on an archlinux screenshots recently
<rks_>
bernardofpc: xfce terminal (it works just as well with urxvt), colorscheme is wombat256 and I use the "powerline" plugin
<bernardofpc>
hum, so you need urxvt-256 I guess ?
<bernardofpc>
(but cool)
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<rks_>
bernardofpc: I'd guess so :p
<rks_>
(but I've just "rxvt-unicode" installed)
<rks_>
(that is: if you're using arch, don't need to look any further)
<def-lkb>
bernardofpc: fyi, I set t_Co=256 as vim didn't recognized my xfce terminal (on arch)
<def-lkb>
…and rxvt-unicode was slow to redraw (thought that was probably related to drivers)
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<thizanne>
rks_: echo $TERM
<rks_>
rxvt-256color :]
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<wmeyer>
hi rks_ def-lkb thizanne bernardofpc Anarchos
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<def-lkb>
hi wmeyer
<thizanne>
hi wmeyer
<Anarchos>
hi wmeyer
<wmeyer>
hi all
<wmeyer>
gasche: is using VIM? Didn't know he is on the dark side
<wmeyer>
s/using/uses/
<thizanne>
I don't think he is
<def-lkb>
afaict, he is still using emacs… we were just discussing some merlin features in vim :)
<def-lkb>
(the screenshot is rks_' desktop)
<wmeyer>
nice
<rks_>
hi wmeyer :)
<wmeyer>
hi rks_ :)
* pippijn
is on the dark side
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<wmeyer>
so I tried some time ago, several similar IDEs, and it really worked, however I was never able to sustain the config. Now I really want to try your merlin
<wmeyer>
looks good from what I can see
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<def-lkb>
wmeyer: may I advise you to wait a few days…
<rks_>
:D
<def-lkb>
Of course as the main developer, what I say is really subjective, but right now there is two branches: one for bug fixes, the other for experimental features
<def-lkb>
the experimental really improve the overall experience, but is not stable at the moment.
<def-lkb>
the bug fixes makes integration with editors more seamless, and we hope to sync the opam version with this branch in the next few days :)
<wmeyer>
cool :)
<wmeyer>
I'm more relaxed now to try it, however opam has some problems with Emacs modes, we had a discussion what to do to make it transparent (it's not a showstoper to me, but people would like to be able to just run opam, restart Emacs and see it's working)
<wmeyer>
and thanks for providing all of that def-lkb :-) it really helps!
<thizanne>
anyone tried to compile merlin with a pacman installation of ocaml in archlinux ?
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<thizanne>
(or any ocaml program giving something like "standard lib and findlib make inconsistent assumptions over interface Filename")
<thizanne>
(and reinstalling ocaml and ocaml-findlib from scratch did not solve anything)
<thizanne>
(but heated my room because you know, coq)
<wmeyer>
thizanne: [chime in] I think last time and looked merlin provides it's own part of the compiler
<pippijn>
merlin?
<wmeyer>
pippijn: yes
<wmeyer>
def-lkb: might explain, I don't remember
<thizanne>
yes but there is still need to compileit
<pippijn>
interesting
<thizanne>
./configure works but not make
<def-lkb>
re
<thizanne>
I think it comes from a screwed ocamlfind in archlinux packages but i was wondering if someone got it to work
<def-lkb>
thizanne: your "inconsistent assumptions problem" makes me think the arch packages are screwed
<pippijn>
nice
<pippijn>
that has everything I made for my vim and more
<thizanne>
def-lkb: thelema I got the error about inconsistent assumptions
<thizanne>
I dont remember the exact text but I googled it and found it rather common
<pippijn>
mine used annot, though
<thizanne>
(and I'm not on archlinux right now to test)
<thizanne>
def-lkb: yes I think it comes from there
<thelema>
thizanne: you should fix findlib; I'm guessing you have ocamlfind installed from an old ocaml install
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<thizanne>
well the fix could be to make a new ocaml-findlib-working package
<thizanne>
but I don't think it's a right solution :D
<thizanne>
thelema: I thought so but I installed it again (and ocaml too) and it did not change
<def-lkb>
ocaml-findlib is in the community repository… just recompile it against last compiler package
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<thizanne>
but maybe the ocaml-findlib package is outdated and mainteners did not see it
<thizanne>
I tried def-lkb
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<thelema>
thizanne: hmm, if you can pastebin the result of adding -v to the failing make command (so the findlib will print more info), we may be able to help further.
<thizanne>
ok, thanks
<def-lkb>
and I confirm what wmeyer said, merlin provides it's own part of the compiler, though structures and magic numbers are only compatible with 4.00.1 compiler
<thizanne>
does it use this part to compile itself ?
<thizanne>
(curiosity question)
<def-lkb>
thizanne: no this is not a complete compiler pipeline
<thizanne>
(itself meaning stuff which does not come from the compiler)
<thelema>
thizanne: I think it's only used for static analysis
<def-lkb>
you can see merlin as a toplevel without interpreter and an unsound typesystem =)
<thelema>
thizanne: of user-provided code
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<def-lkb>
(thelema is right)
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<thelema>
def-lkb: I just noticed the screenshot in your readme file... It's getting the types right for Batteries.IO. yay!
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<def-lkb>
thelema: sure =) ('bout the screenshot, thanks to asmanur for improving emacs integration, those features are coming in bugfix release)
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<bernardofpc>
rks_> (that is: if you're using arch, don't need to look any further) -> I'm on gentoo so I have some (re)compilation to do I'd guess
<bernardofpc>
(oh, and there's no opam in gentoo, which is kinda strange since it seems like the approved method to install stuff - and gentoo would not be a problem to compile things I believe)
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