flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 4.00.1 http://bit.ly/UHeZyT | http://www.ocaml.org | Public logs at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/ocaml/
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<Kakadu_> Does somebody know how awful is Scala after ML languages?
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<companion_cube> Kakadu_: no idea
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<companion_cube> the anonymous function syntax and lack of curryfication is ugly, but otoh you have subtyping and implicits everywhere
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<ousado> Kakadu_: hard to say, scala is quite a beast.
<Kakadu_> companion_cube: it seems that Scala's type declarations are a little bit crazy
<flux> I think I've heard it being described as the C++ of functional languages
<flux> or java
<flux> but I suppose I still should take a good look at it some time :)
<companion_cube> is there a way to tell ocamlopt to look in some .cmi file for modules signatures?
<ousado> flux: I just had to dscipline myself to not say that
<companion_cube> (I want to build a .cmxs plugin that depends on some .cmi, but does not link against anything)
<flux> ousado, but you implied, with the 'beast', right?-)
<ousado> yes
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<ousado> but more in a good way, really, the higher kinded types are quite powerful
<flux> well, templates are quite powerful :)
<ousado> it also has nice metaprogramming features by now
<ousado> indeed
<ousado> (I like C++ for what it taught me)
<flux> actually c++ seems much nicer now that it has auto and lambda
<ousado> and variadic templates
<flux> and very few languages still have a way to precisely automatically account for resources other than memory
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<hcarty> thomasga: Does opam provide a mechanism to say that package A can work in place of package B? As an example, libfoo.1.0.0 and libfoo-dev.snapshot where the -dev package says it 'provides' libfoo for other packages.
<smondet> hcarty: you can do that with 3 packages: you can have a package libfoo that depends on libfoo-dev OR libfoo-just-the-lib
<smondet> (but if not specified, when installing libfoo opam will pick one of the two randomly)
<hcarty> smondet: Ok, so I would need to locally/separately repackage the libfoo as libfoo-just-the-lib and keep that repackaged version and the wrapper version in sync with upstream changes
<smondet> (it is just one possibility, maybe there is some way more clever :) )
<hcarty> smondet: Thanks for the suggestion!
<hcarty> A way to make package B pretend to be package A for dependency resolution purposes would be nice though
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<gasche> is Merlin able to provide feedback about where a constructor or field comes from?
<gasche> if so, you may want to say it in the discussion
<gasche> (I agree with Leo that out-of-scope constructors should be an error by default, but IDE tooling like Merlin help reduces the risks associated to this feature)
<rks_> gasche: yes it does
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<gasche> sorry, should have pinged you too
<rks_> no problem
<rks_> and maybe I misunderstood your question gasche
<def-lkb> hum, merlin has access to the environment… The information is somewhere, but not provided to the end-user (unless I am missing your point)
<rks_> but with vim, when merlin completes fields or constructors, it indicates its type
<rks_> haha great def-lkb, we're not answering the same thing, I'm so not looking like an idiot right now :'
<thizanne> fortunately you prevented this by saying "maybe you were not clear enough for me to understand", which was quite clever
<gasche> what I would expect is something like, if I ask "give me definition place of this name" of a field 'foo' or constructor 'Foo', to get M.N.Foo
<rks_> thizanne: I'm learning a lot from f a sta :)
<thizanne> :D
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<def-lkb> gasche: easy to achieve/improve, I didn't try, but actually it probably prints the path relative to current scope, not exactly what you want
<rks_> gasche: I'm guessing that http://88.191.77.33/~rks/gasche.png doesn't count?
<gasche> def-lkb: in that case, the path relative to the current scope would be reasonable
<gasche> as the problem lies with type that are implicitly resolved outside the scope by type information
<gasche> rks_: that's reasonable
<gasche> does it also work for record fields?
<rks_> I think so yes
<gasche> then I'd count that as "merlin already helps with this issue"
<def-lkb> good, but anyway if you come up of a better behavior, it would be easy to tweak
<def-lkb> s/of/with
<rks_> gasche: http://88.191.77.33/~rks/gasche2.png for records
<rks_> (on the bottom screen I completed without a prefix, so it proposes contents as well but "meh")
<rks_> of course the first case is not what you'd want, but I don't think it would be hard to change that
<def-lkb> (the upper screen looks more like a failure ;))
<rks_> (well def-lkb, it's not)
<gasche> hm the (approx) is not the information I'm looking for
<rks_> (but yes, it's here to show that the new "features" of trunk are not supported, yet)
<rks_> yes, of course
<gasche> I'd like an output that says that it comes from the module X (with the rest of the information that is of course nice)
<def-lkb> (the (approx) means we had to rely on heuristic rather than standard ocaml rules to resolve the path)
<rks_> well, in the "open case", asking the type of "x" in "x.foo" will give you X.t
<rks_> (and if you ask that information on foo, or if you grow the enclosing it will give you "int", of course)
<thelema_> I think it will be necessary to get the module information from the compiler to get it right in the presence of implied modules on record fields
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<rks_> btw gasche, I don't re
<rks_> member the discussion on that "new feature"
<rks_> (and I didn't follow much of it anyway)
<gasche> both Alain and I blogged about it
<gasche> you have no excuse
<rks_> what is the expected behavior if you don't have enough information to "disambiguate" ?
<thizanne> if the "new feature" is record disambiguation, there is a gagallium blog entry by gasche
<thizanne> oh, too late
<rks_> and I read both articles at the time gasche :p
<def-lkb> thelema_: we do use the compiler
<thelema_> def-lkb: not for (approx), right?
<rks_> but if you cover that in your article, I'll glady go read it again
<def-lkb> thelema_: yes :), approx is just a fallback to try to provide an information rather than just fail
<gasche> rks_: it falls back to the "last one entered in scope" rule, with a warning if there are more than one in scope
<thelema_> def-lkb: and what I'm saying is that fallback won't provide the needed information in this case
<def-lkb> thelema_: but as we improve error recovery, approx is becoming less useful
<gasche> (the idea of the warning is to warn that the code meaning would not be preserved by addition of more type annotations)
<def-lkb> thelema_: ok, right, sorry, I misunderstood
<rks_> ok gasche, that doesn't feel too secure, but it's a reasonable choice I guess :'
<rks_> (thank you!)
<gasche> it's also the only choice that preserves backward compatibility of programs
<rks_> but who cares about that :-'
<def-lkb> :D
<gasche> will one of you three members of the Merlin gang give a talk to the upcomping Paris meeting?
<gasche> if you haven't planned that, you should probably contact Fabrice
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<def-lkb> gasche: yes, why not. I feel a bit ashamed that the emacs mode distributed in official release was a bit "fragile"
<gasche> alang like Alex?
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<gasche> def-lkb: does that mean that you're sending an email right now?
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<def-lkb> gasche: :), lemme check my agenda before…
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<gasche> thelema_: I'm surprised by this "1 second per file" number you give in your bug report
<gasche> may there be other performance troubles than simply the .merlin file parsing?
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<gasche> def-lkb reports that in his experience, large "open" do take some time
<thelema_> gasche: not particularly.
<gasche> or maybe you are over NFS or in a strange setup
<thelema_> The merlin file does reference batteries
<thelema_> everything is local on my mahcine
<thelema_> *machine
<gasche> and the .merlin file is reasonably small, I suppose
<asmanur_> thelema_: could you put relevant messages and merlin input/output on the bt (by issuing (setq merlin-debug t) ?
<thelema_> PKG batteries
<thelema_> B _build/
<thelema_> S .
<thelema_> that's my .merlin file
<thelema_> asmanur_: sure
<gasche> then there is something else than simply "share .merlin parsing"
<asmanur_> thanks
<gasche> to this observed performance problem
<thelema_> shraing it would reduce the cost from 1/file to 1/project
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<thelema_> but making the per-file cost tiny would be nice too.
<asmanur_> thelema_: it would be nice, but I believe the parsing of .merlin files should be in the toplevel
<asmanur_> as now, each mode for merlin has to write a parser for those which is a bit uneffective maintenance-wise
<thelema_> odd; restarting with merlin-debug=t doesn't have the same slowness; let's see if I can reproduce the slowness when I turn it off again
<thelema_> ah, n/m; it was... I dunno what it was, my desktop got broken, I think, and not as many files got loaded
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<thelema_> specifically not files in a merlin project
<def-lkb> there is a weird quadratic behavior that may trigger :/
<def-lkb> the path are stored in a list, duplicates are filtered only when loading from findlib package
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<thelema_> so it's slowly processing _build over and over?
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<def-lkb> as far as I can tell, not in your case: it also loads batteries PKG, so path is filtered
<thelema_> ok
<def-lkb> anyway, you're not sure anymore the problem came from merlin?
<thelema_> correct. If I can reproduce, I'll paste any debug that I get into a new bug.
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* gasche indirectly solved a bug report
<thelema_> it seems now I'm getting these errors, I think from merlin: File mode specification error: (wrong-type-argument number-or-marker-p nil)
<thelema_> whenever I open a .ml file in a project that has .merlin
<def-lkb> thelema_: are you on official release or git ?
<thelema_> opam
<asmanur_> thelema_: could you give me the value of `buffer-name' for this buffer?
<thelema_> asmanur_: I think "red_rem.ml", although maybe you'll have to help me with emacs internals
<thelema_> I only know how to run elisp by switching to ~/.emacs and using C-c C-e
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<gasche> you can actually use C-C C-e in any buffer, including the .ml one
<gasche> just call it below something that is an elisp phrase
<thelema_> gasche: oh, neat
<asmanur_> thelema_: M-: buffer-name<ret>
<asmanur_> the question is: does it start with a ~ or a /
<thelema_> neither
<thelema_> Debugger entered--Lisp error: (void-variable buffer-name) eval(buffer-name nil) eval-expression(buffer-name nil) call-interactively(eval-expression nil nil)
<def-lkb> what's the value of default-directory ?
<thelema_> /home/thelema/tcam/
<thelema_> (in "")
<thelema_> gotta go; back in maybe 10 min
<def-lkb> ok, right, therefore it's not the bug fixed in git/master
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<bernardofpc> rks_> gasche: http://88.191.77.33/~rks/gasche2.png -> what kind of terminal + .vimrc makes for these colors ?
<Anarchos> bernardofpc i recognize an archlinux style
<rks_> Anarchos: how could you here?
<Anarchos> rks_ because i already saw the bottom of the screens on an archlinux screenshots recently
<rks_> bernardofpc: xfce terminal (it works just as well with urxvt), colorscheme is wombat256 and I use the "powerline" plugin
<bernardofpc> hum, so you need urxvt-256 I guess ?
<bernardofpc> (but cool)
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<rks_> bernardofpc: I'd guess so :p
<rks_> (but I've just "rxvt-unicode" installed)
<rks_> (that is: if you're using arch, don't need to look any further)
<def-lkb> bernardofpc: fyi, I set t_Co=256 as vim didn't recognized my xfce terminal (on arch)
<def-lkb> …and rxvt-unicode was slow to redraw (thought that was probably related to drivers)
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<thizanne> rks_: echo $TERM
<rks_> rxvt-256color :]
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<wmeyer> hi rks_ def-lkb thizanne bernardofpc Anarchos
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<def-lkb> hi wmeyer
<thizanne> hi wmeyer
<Anarchos> hi wmeyer
<wmeyer> hi all
<wmeyer> gasche: is using VIM? Didn't know he is on the dark side
<wmeyer> s/using/uses/
<thizanne> I don't think he is
<def-lkb> afaict, he is still using emacs… we were just discussing some merlin features in vim :)
<def-lkb> (the screenshot is rks_' desktop)
<wmeyer> nice
<rks_> hi wmeyer :)
<wmeyer> hi rks_ :)
* pippijn is on the dark side
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<wmeyer> so I tried some time ago, several similar IDEs, and it really worked, however I was never able to sustain the config. Now I really want to try your merlin
<wmeyer> looks good from what I can see
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<def-lkb> wmeyer: may I advise you to wait a few days…
<rks_> :D
<def-lkb> Of course as the main developer, what I say is really subjective, but right now there is two branches: one for bug fixes, the other for experimental features
<def-lkb> the experimental really improve the overall experience, but is not stable at the moment.
<def-lkb> the bug fixes makes integration with editors more seamless, and we hope to sync the opam version with this branch in the next few days :)
<wmeyer> cool :)
<wmeyer> I'm more relaxed now to try it, however opam has some problems with Emacs modes, we had a discussion what to do to make it transparent (it's not a showstoper to me, but people would like to be able to just run opam, restart Emacs and see it's working)
<wmeyer> and thanks for providing all of that def-lkb :-) it really helps!
<thizanne> anyone tried to compile merlin with a pacman installation of ocaml in archlinux ?
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<thizanne> (or any ocaml program giving something like "standard lib and findlib make inconsistent assumptions over interface Filename")
<thizanne> (and reinstalling ocaml and ocaml-findlib from scratch did not solve anything)
<thizanne> (but heated my room because you know, coq)
<wmeyer> thizanne: [chime in] I think last time and looked merlin provides it's own part of the compiler
<pippijn> merlin?
<wmeyer> pippijn: yes
<wmeyer> def-lkb: might explain, I don't remember
<thizanne> yes but there is still need to compileit
<pippijn> interesting
<thizanne> ./configure works but not make
<def-lkb> re
<thizanne> I think it comes from a screwed ocamlfind in archlinux packages but i was wondering if someone got it to work
<def-lkb> do you get an error message ?
<thelema> thizanne: what error?
<def-lkb> thizanne: your "inconsistent assumptions problem" makes me think the arch packages are screwed
<pippijn> nice
<pippijn> that has everything I made for my vim and more
<thizanne> def-lkb: thelema I got the error about inconsistent assumptions
<thizanne> I dont remember the exact text but I googled it and found it rather common
<pippijn> mine used annot, though
<thizanne> (and I'm not on archlinux right now to test)
<thizanne> def-lkb: yes I think it comes from there
<thelema> thizanne: you should fix findlib; I'm guessing you have ocamlfind installed from an old ocaml install
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<thizanne> well the fix could be to make a new ocaml-findlib-working package
<thizanne> but I don't think it's a right solution :D
<thizanne> thelema: I thought so but I installed it again (and ocaml too) and it did not change
<def-lkb> ocaml-findlib is in the community repository… just recompile it against last compiler package
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<thizanne> but maybe the ocaml-findlib package is outdated and mainteners did not see it
<thizanne> I tried def-lkb
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<thelema> thizanne: hmm, if you can pastebin the result of adding -v to the failing make command (so the findlib will print more info), we may be able to help further.
<thizanne> ok, thanks
<def-lkb> and I confirm what wmeyer said, merlin provides it's own part of the compiler, though structures and magic numbers are only compatible with 4.00.1 compiler
<thizanne> does it use this part to compile itself ?
<thizanne> (curiosity question)
<def-lkb> thizanne: no this is not a complete compiler pipeline
<thizanne> (itself meaning stuff which does not come from the compiler)
<thelema> thizanne: I think it's only used for static analysis
<def-lkb> you can see merlin as a toplevel without interpreter and an unsound typesystem =)
<thelema> thizanne: of user-provided code
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<def-lkb> (thelema is right)
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<thelema> def-lkb: I just noticed the screenshot in your readme file... It's getting the types right for Batteries.IO. yay!
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<def-lkb> thelema: sure =) ('bout the screenshot, thanks to asmanur for improving emacs integration, those features are coming in bugfix release)
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<bernardofpc> rks_> (that is: if you're using arch, don't need to look any further) -> I'm on gentoo so I have some (re)compilation to do I'd guess
<bernardofpc> (oh, and there's no opam in gentoo, which is kinda strange since it seems like the approved method to install stuff - and gentoo would not be a problem to compile things I believe)
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