adrien changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org and http://caml.inria.fr | http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.0.html | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<dmbaturin> Menhir doesn't resolve shift/reduce conflicts as shift by default?
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<warrick_> is there a way to increment polymorphically
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<warrick_> or an idiom for it, rather
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<def`> increment polymorphically ?
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<warrick_> if (x + 1) >= b
<warrick_> wherein x could be an integer, or say a Date
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<warrick_> using core's Date.add_days
<dmbaturin> warrick_: The only option I can think of is creating a type like something = Int of int | Somethingelse of somethingelse
<dmbaturin> Not sure if it's a good idea though.
<warrick_> ahhh, maybe i'll just parametrize the conditional, i.e if (param_func x b)
<warrick_> sometimes duck-typing is more algebraic, oddly enough
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<warrick_> thanks!
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<dmbaturin> http://pastie.org/9560711 How come my list.cmi doesn't match my compiler?
<dmbaturin> How do I debug it?
<whitequark> reinstall the switch
<whitequark> that's the simplest way
<whitequark> I don't really know how did it got messed up
<def`> dmbaturin: just in case, do you have a local modules called List?
<whitequark> def`: 23:49 < dmbaturin> How do I make mehnir emit more useful error messages rather than "syntax error"?
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<dmbaturin> def`: I should not, but let me git clean.
<dmbaturin> Hhm, somehow I did, with some testing stuff.
<def`> for menhir, the best answer as far as my work is concerned is probably "wait, and eventually pm me to discuss what you would like to see" :)
<dmbaturin> In that dir. So ocaml looks for .cmi's in the current dir first?
<def`> Yes.
<def`> (that's why you can use local modules at all :))
<dmbaturin> def`: Are you the menhir maintainer?
<def`> dmbaturin: not, but I have a menhir's fork with various features, including helpers for error message
<dmbaturin> Also, that question was bad. What I really meant was how to make menhir generated code emit better error messages.
<dmbaturin> I'd like some menhir error reporting to be more descriptive too, but it's a different question. :)
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<def`> dmbaturin: if you just need help to debug your software, you can dump the lexer positions when catching syntax error
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<def`> if you want proper error messages generation… my work can help, but is not ready for a stablerelease
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<dmbaturin> Well, I'd like to display descriptive errors to the user, at least like "unexpected token <token>" and such.
<def`> you can try remembering the last token output by the lexer
<dmbaturin> Where do I find an example of dumping lexer positions on parse errors?
<def`> the lexbuf you pass to the parser will contain the positions in Lexing.lex_start_p and Lexing.lex_curr_p
<def`> and for remembering the token, I would just use a ref and wrap Lexer.main in a function that saves the last token in this ref
<def`> "quick'n'dirty"
<dmbaturin> Also, is it possible to do some imperative stuff in production rules, like populate a hashtable with tokens?
<whitequark> yes
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<dmbaturin> Are there any examples I can learn from?
<whitequark> oh, hm, don't have it there
<dmbaturin> Thanks!
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<dmbaturin> Maybe I can just use a list, performance is not really a concern.
<dmbaturin> But using a hashtable is probably a better solution, since it's a list of named production rules.
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<warrick_> How can I print like utop?
<warrick_> or I guess, like toplevel
<whitequark> well, you either have to be toplevel
<whitequark> or you need something like https://github.com/whitequark/ppx_deriving#plugin-show :p
<warrick_> drat
<dmbaturin> whitequark: What is the reason deriving is >4.02 only?
<whitequark> dmbaturin: it uses 4.02 facilities for extending the syntax
<dmbaturin> The camlp4 or ocaml itself?
<whitequark> ocaml itself.
<dmbaturin> Can 4.02 be installed via opam?
<whitequark> yes, it's released
<whitequark> opam switch 4.02.0
<dmbaturin> opam installed 4.01 for me, which barely makes sense because I already had 4.01 from the repos.
<whitequark> well, you asked it to!
<whitequark> by default, opam uses the system compiler. you don't have to switch if you want to keep it
<dmbaturin> I didn't, I just didn't ask otherwise. :)
<whitequark> or `opam switch system`
<whitequark> anyway, 4.02 was released fairly recently. try `opam update`
<dmbaturin> Hhm.
<dmbaturin> /home/dmbaturin/.opam/4.01.0/bin/ocamlopt: a /home/dmbaturin/.opam/4.01.0/bin/ocamlrun script executable (binary data)
<dmbaturin> What does it mean by "ocamlrun script executable"?
<whitequark> `less /home/dmbaturin/.opam/4.01.0/bin/ocamlopt`. you'll see
<dmbaturin> I see binary data.
<whitequark> and the first line?
<dmbaturin> ocamlrun shebang. I mean, how do I find out what it really does? :)
<whitequark> what do you mean by "what it really does"?
<whitequark> it works essentially as a shell script, except instead of program text, there is bytecode
<dmbaturin> Well, find out what the script does. Does it run the system compiler, search for compilers and starts appropriate version etc.?
<dmbaturin> Other than using strace on it.
<whitequark> huh? it's a regular ocaml bytecode executable.
<whitequark> no different than what you would install via your package manager, sans its location
<dmbaturin> >by default, opam uses the system compiler; I thought you mean it uses the system compiler and files in ~/.opam/4.01 are not the compiler executables in this case.
<whitequark> no, ~/.opam/4.01.0 indicates that you installed a non-system compiler
<whitequark> otherwise, ocamlc would be in /usr/bin/ocamlc, and package binaries would be in ~/.opam/system/bin
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<dmbaturin> I still have the compiler installed from packages, so it's kind of confusing.
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<sagotch> Is there way to group without naming and expression with Str module? (e.g. "Hello\\( world!\\)?", but without " world!" being binded to \\1)
<adrien_oww> I don't think so
<adrien_oww> also, why?
<tane> no (?: ... ) ?
<sagotch> I just want to match an optional group inside a named group, without adding an identifier
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<adrien_oww> but what is the issue in doing so?
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<sagotch> One reason would be that use of \\n in regexp is limited to 0-9, so you may not want to add useless named groups.
<sagotch> use of \x (x : int)*
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<dmbaturin> What is the standard way to rename the executable after building in ocamlbuild?
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<MercurialAlchemi> sagotch: usually you'd do that with ?:, I don't know if it's supported though
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<MercurialAlchemi> dmbaturin: use oasis? :)
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<whitequark> dmbaturin: there is none.
<whitequark> for simplicity, you could make a symlink
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<Drup> AltGr, thomasga: would it be possible, in an opam repository, to have just urls to git repository and let the opam file in the git repository be picked up ?
<thomasga> I don't think so
<thomasga> opam is looking for opam files to know which packages are in the repo
<thomasga> (so you can have abitrary prefixes)
<Drup> yeah, that was my understanding
<thomasga> (packages/XXXXX/NAME.VERSION/opam)
<Drup> but it means that, for eliom for exemple, we duplicate opam files
<Drup> and obviously, one of them goes out of sync
<thomasga> I see ...
<thomasga> worth reporting that workflow on the issue tracker
<Drup> well, I'm not sure it's actually a good one, we're going to deprecate this repository in favor of pinning
<thomasga> having an opam file for a git tracked package is not always a good thing
<thomasga> well, pinning are harder to share
<thomasga> (we did the same thing for mirage at one point, but we are going back to a dev repo)
<Drup> yes, but we shared this repository because the eliom release was far behing the dev version. If we are a bit better at doing releases, we won't need it :p
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<thomasga> yea … same problem here :-)
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<Drup> but yes, you are right, it might be interesting in general, will open a ticket
<AltGr> maybe you could just share an export file containing just the pins :)
<AltGr> just an idea
<thomasga> can we `opam import <uri>` ?
<AltGr> nope, but why not
<AltGr> problem with import is that it's non-trivial to undo
<thomasga> yea …
<dsheets> what about remotes that are actually export files to be imported?
<AltGr> maybe a solution would be a special opam-admin that auto-syncs opam files
<Drup> AltGr: that's a fix that rely on automation on the repo side, it doesn't really fix the underlying issue
<Drup> it means putting hooks everywhere, it's not really satisfying :/
<AltGr> dunno, I'm not sure there is an issue to fix on the opam side really. Anyway, how to best share a dev environment is worth thinking about
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<Drup> AltGr: Not sure what we (you :D) are going to do with it, but at least there is an issue to track it :p
<AltGr> thanks
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<beginner> is there a way to get the string representation of bin prot encoded values?
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<ggole> bin prot?
<tane> probably referring to https://github.com/janestreet/bin_prot
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<beginner> yes the jane street library
<beginner> does someone here use bin_prot?
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<bytbox> Oct 22: Derek Richardson, "What's it like to walk on an asteroid?"
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<bytbox> ... disregard that
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<Drup> vbmithr: https://github.com/drup/lilis :pretty pictures:
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<nicoo> Drup: I must be missing some backlog :(
<Drup> irl backlog :)
<nicoo> Ah, ok xD
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<bernardofpc> Drup: "this project has three parts", following a 4 bullet list ;-)
<Drup> well, arguably, the test part is not really a part !
<Drup> (totally intended, all that)
<Drup> :]
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<Drup> dsheets: do you still plan on working on some sort of htmlm ?
<dsheets> Drup, which way? i have some uncommitted processor that will mangle XML into HTML
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<dsheets> also, i have a tool which works over web sites <https://github.com/dsheets/webmaster> that uses Xmlm and falls back to Nethtml and would like to use an HTML mangler
<Drup> what do you need to mangle ?
<dsheets> a lot of things; see http://www.w3.org/TR/html-polyglot/ for a list of mismatches
<Drup> basically, I would like a proper parser and a modular streaming printer for tyxml, and if someone did the whole entity handling for me, I'm not gonna complain :)
<dsheets> Drup, i have a lot of the components in various libraries already. see https://github.com/dsheets/htmlmu for the mangler (i forgot!)
<dsheets> entity handling exists in https://github.com/mirage/ocaml-cow
<dsheets> a Real HTML5 parser is a huge amount of work
<Drup> I know
<Drup> I don't really need a very robust one
<Drup> it's just for tyxml's syntax extension
<dsheets> though, someone once wrote a perl script that scraped an old version of the "HTML Living Standard" and produced an OCaml parser...
<Drup> the one implemented currently is some horribly ugly camlp4 parser that is full of holes
<dsheets> well, Nethtml has a messy parser that seems to do ok with what I've given it so far (nothing perverse)
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<Drup> I don't want to grab ocamlnet :x
<dsheets> ehh break out the Nethtml module? i think the license is friendly?
<Drup> gerd will probably not approve, regardless of the license :p
<dsheets> For sloppy parsing, I think it's the only reasonably complete solution we have (save spawning a Ruby process or something stupid)
<Drup> what do you mean by "sloppy" ?
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<dsheets> this forgiving HTML syntax which recovers from errors
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<Drup> yeah, this is exactly what I do *not* need
<dsheets> Drup, oh? what do you want?? i thought you wanted a general HTML parser...?
<Drup> Really, I don't want anything complicated, just proper handling of entities and encoding, which xmlm doesn't provide as I would like it
<Drup> just replace this horrible camlp4 parser for the tyxml syntax extension
<dsheets> erm... what is xmlm missing? you can override entities... never tried non-utf-8 encoding
<Drup> ok, let's get back from the start, because we are talking about two thing at the same time, it's confusing :D
<dsheets> ok... there are at least 3 html syntaxes: xhtml, polyglot html, sloppy html (HTML The Living Standard)
<Drup> yes.
<Drup> so, in tyxml, we output polyglot html
<dsheets> sounds good. what do you desire?
<Drup> but the input, I think we can settle for something very simple (and certainly not the sloppy one)
<dsheets> why not xhtml?
<dsheets> or polyglot
<Drup> probably polyglot, since that's the output, yes
<Drup> the issue is that both the parser and the printer are very badly coded
<Drup> so I wanted to replace the whole thing by something more robust, like xmlm, but it doesn't do the job (see https://github.com/ocsigen/tyxml/issues/21)
<Drup> hence the question : did you have already such thing.
<dsheets> Drup, i have the mangler which is primarily what we want for authoring
<dsheets> for parsing random web garbage, the closest is Nethtml
<dsheets> it seems that you want the mangler and maybe some support functions for parsing literal char entities into UTF-8 (to be remade into entities by xmlm)
<dsheets> Also, I don't have anything that handles comments which is sad
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<dsheets> so... maybe that helps you?
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<Drup> the mangler simply transforms <foo /> in <foo></foo>, right ?
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<dsheets> Drup, https://github.com/dsheets/htmlmu/blob/master/lib/htmlmu.ml for everything except the void element set which can't be translated. also, there are html entities to be translated to xml entities, xml namespaces to be added, the HTML5 doctype, and mathml and svg namespaces to be added among other things
<dsheets> the goal is to get a full xhtml5 -> polyglot function
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<Drup> right
<dsheets> Drup, anyway, i'm interested in what you find out and decide... keep me informed if you would
<dsheets> for now, i have to cycle home and eat dinner, ttyl
<Drup> (we have these thingies somewhere in tyxml, I never actually touched them because this norm horrifies me everytime I look at it :D)
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<Denommus> if I can have a tuple value without parentheses, why do I need them for tuple types? Is there any reasoning, or is just the way it is?
<mrvn> precedence
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<mrvn> either (a * b) list or a * (b list) needs ()
<Denommus> I'm talking about a tuple of type, not a type of tuples
<mrvn> as in?
<Drup> (a,b) thingy ?
<Drup> it's not really tuple, it's more like type that takes multiple arguments
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<mrvn> which has (a, b) thingy and a, (b thingy). only one can be without ()
<Denommus> it's a tuple of types
<Denommus> well, does 'a, ('b thingy) make sense?
<Denommus> but ok, ok, I take it
<mrvn> ('a, ('b thingy)) thingymabob
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<badkins> I'm considering learning OCaml, and I'm curious how much of some of my existing ML books might apply. I picked up "ML for the Working Programmer", "Elements of ML Programming", "The Little MLer", Okasaki's book when learning Standard ML
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<Drup> probably pretty much all of it
<badkins> cool - good to hear :)
<mrvn> it's more about what is missing from it then what doesn't apply
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<badkins> I was hoping that was the case. I'll probably start with Real World OCaml, but I may use my existing ones also as a supplement.
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<Drup> (okasaki's is always good anyway, for algorithmic purposes :p)
<badkins> On another note, I installed ocaml on osx via: brew install ocaml --without-x11 since I'm not planning on any gui stuff for a while. That worked fine, but brew install opam failed with: objective-caml: Unsatisfied dependency: XQuartz 0.0.0
<badkins> is XQuartz required for opam ? That seems odd.
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<Drup> I don't even know what XQuartz is, so, probably not :p
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<badkins> Hmm... this thread seems to think it's necessary: https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew/issues/30919
<badkins> I guess I'll just install XQuartz and see if that does it.
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<Denommus> is there a GUI toolkit for OCaml that uses React?
<Drup> sort of
<Drup> but the answer is not going to satisfy you
<Drup> there are lambda-term and eliom's dom, which are sort of GUIs :]
<Drup> (I think adrien has some stuff for lablgtk too)
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<adrien> the real question would be: why do you want to use react?
<adrien> (and I should kill the repo with lablgtk-react since there's almost no code left and I have better stuff now)
<badkins> From my various google searches and reading, is it safe to say that the multicore ocaml stuff will be available in the next year or so?
<Drup> I hope, but I wouldn't bet my life on it
<badkins> e.g. http://anil.recoil.org/2013/12/29/the-year-in-ocamllabs.html "Priorities for 2014 ... Multicore: Leo White will be leading efforts in putting an end-to-end multicore capable OCaml together."
<badkins> I'm patient :) Just knowing it's a focus give me a higher comfort level in investing in learning the lang now.
<Drup> anil is not part of the core team and doesn't decide what goes into the compiler =)
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<Drup> (even if I'm pretty sure his opinion is not without weight :p)
<mrvn> badkins: it is rather easy to implement parts of cpu intensive algorithms in C and run them with the runtime lock released. That way you can utilize all cores which each thread only occasionally swithing to ocaml.
<mrvn> or split the work into multiple processes from the start
<badkins> yeah, I'm used to having to use multiple procs for parallelism now, but I'm hoping to be able to have better support directly in ocaml - a year or two would be fine, but if it's going to be stalled indefinitely, I would be sad
<Drup> ("rather easy" *cough* *cough*)
<Drup> badkins: I don't think it's going to be stalled indefinitely
<mrvn> I don't think it will ever work too well without the user organizing the alogirhtms for it properly.
<adrien> the current multicore runtime effort seems to have started things well
<badkins> I fooled around with Haskell quite a bit, but ultimately decided that ocaml is probably a better fit for my needs. I hadn't actually gotten around to exploring the concurrency/parallelism aspect of Haskell, but it does seem to have decent support at this point.
<badkins> My first impression of opam is excellent - everything is installing w/o any hiccups.
<mrvn> I also think we need 3 runtime flavours: 1) single core like now, 2) a few cores (say <= 8) and 3) massive multicore
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<mrvn> you can use different tricks with a strictly limited number of cores.
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<mrvn> adrien: does the current effort use a strictly per core minor heap?
<nicoo> mrvn: When your CPU-intensive part does heavy-weight symbolic manipulation, you don't really want to write it in C :(
<nicoo> mrvn: IIRC, yes
<mrvn> nicoo: true
<badkins> Cool - *everything* recommended by RWO installed fine. utop is a different kind of repl :)
<nicoo> badkins: utop is a super-fancy repl, yes :)
<mrvn> It would be cool if one had hardware support for this. Trap when writing a thread local address into a global memory segment.
<nicoo> badkins: About RWO, you should keep in mind that it doesn't always distinguishes between what is standard OCaml and what is Core (Jane Street's ecosystem, with syntax extensions and so on), IIRC.
<mrvn> nicoo: why would you ever not use core? :)))
<badkins> Yeah, I know. At this point, I don't mind a highly opinionated guide though. I can plumb the differences later I suppose.
<companion_cube> nicoo: in rust, soooon
<nicoo> mrvn: mprotect-ing the global memory wouldn't be as efficient, but if the share heap doesn't contain too much mutable stuff, it should be workable :)
<badkins> Jane Street was an influence in my decision to learn OCaml. I've messed with enough languages now to know that the difference between practice and theory is often much greater in practice than in theory :) The number of years and lines of code at Jane Street is an important data point to me, so I'm willing to give their ecosystem a shot initially.
<badkins> But I'm also open to suggestions re: good things to keep in mind as a newbie getting started.
<nicoo> 'kay :)
* badkins is now wondering if there is something about core he should understand :)
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<dmbaturin> https://bpaste.net/show/b63213ac06c7 I'm trying to add a rule for (* *) comments to the lexer. Why this doesn't work with (* characters inside quoted strings, if it's supposed to enter an exclusive state when a quote is found?
<dmbaturin> Or it does and I should look into the parser instead?
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<Drup> what the error when you put "(*" ?
<dmbaturin> Ok, after improving the error messages I see it's actually a parse error, not lexing error.
<dmbaturin> So apparently it works, how do I get lex to ignore that token though?
<Drup> afaict, it's correct
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<dmbaturin> Drup: Oh, wait, reverted to the original state and redid the test file. For "(* some text*)" I get "string not terminated" exception now.
<dmbaturin> Which comes from read_string state.
<Denommus> adrien: because I want to experiment with FRP for GUI
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<dmbaturin> Interesting that '#' [^ '\n']+ '\n' { token lexbuf } works just fine.
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