ChanServ changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.02.1 announcement at http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.html | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<struktured> is this too obscure or terse, especially if you consider onboarding ocaml newbies? opinions appreciated: https://gist.github.com/struktured/535b1dd9541686e7004a
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<struktured> actually I think theres a bug in it anyhow, so perhaps it's too terse for me
<dmbaturin> Too pointless^W point-free for me. :)
<struktured> a reasonable stance, for sure
<struktured> it is fun to write super compact chaining of operators, but it begins to feel like perl if I'm not careful to maintain later
<struktured> I do like avoiding parens though, which is kind of what is happening here
<dmbaturin> Well, perl usually has exact opposite problem: there's too much manipulation of implicit state that is hard to follow, rather than passing something through a long chain of transparent function that is too long to follow.
<struktured> yeah but the density can be similar, I still prefer dealing with terse mostly stateless ocaml though, just for the type system alone
<struktured> terse, dynamic, stateful, mutable code...is rough
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<dmbaturin> No doubt. At least you can convert point-free to knowingly equivalent pointful form with relatively simple manipulations.
<struktured> and I just destroyed my bashrc while testing it (it updates some entries in there)
<struktured> :)
<dmbaturin> I guess that's the reason some people upload their config on code hosting services.
<reynir> struktured: I'd maybe put to_append on its own line :)
<reynir> hmm, maybe it's not really better
<struktured> I cat'ed my bashrc earlier. phew. fixed the bugs too. Still terse though, but I should probably change it to let patterns if only to not scare away my colleagues
<reynir> heh
<reynir> I'd maybe write (fun re -> Re.matches re s) |> (<>) [] isntead of (fun re -> Re.matches re s |> (!=) [])
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<struktured> u changed != to <> ? what's the benefit here?
<struktured> oh wait you moved a paren too..hmm
<reynir> my point was the parens, but <> is structural inequality
<reynir> != is physical inequality
<struktured> got it, thanks
<reynir> btw I'm not really an ocaml expert
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<struktured> in the given example, there is no paren around "fun re"
<reynir> err, correct. But it's parsed as the latter
<struktured> I see
<reynir> (I think)
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<reynir> It looks ok to me, though, except for (<>) vs (!=) :)
<struktured> yeah I prefer strutural I just forgot about that operator distinction in ocaml. It will NOT happen again :)
<struktured> btw the bug was its missing a "not @@" at the beginning of the whole thing
<dmbaturin> != can have very unexpected effect when comparing values rather than references.
<dmbaturin> [] == [] ;; let x = 1 in x == 1 ;; [1;2] == [1;2]
<struktured> in java, its object.equals vs ==, but what sucks even more is by default .equals defaults to == anyhow
<dmbaturin> Yeah, ocaml managed to make it perfectly consistent and very unusual at the same time.
<struktured> I agree based on title alone
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<nullcat_> http://imgur.com/7bnKxCU is there a way to solve this...?
<nullcat_> assume we cannot change the name of types
<companion_cube> in general, people write a type alias
<companion_cube> module Api = struct type _t = t type t = _t end
<companion_cube> (yes, ugly)
<companion_cube> next version will have "type nonrec t = t", I think
<nullcat_> waaaaaaaattttttttt
<nullcat_> (థ౪థ)
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<companion_cube> can't see this unicode :(
<nullcat_> it's a emoji...
<nullcat_> kaomoji, actually
<companion_cube> basically, I think "type", like "let", should be nonrecursive by default, but retrocompat struck again
<nullcat_> yes...
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<nullcat_> what do you mean by next version?
<nullcat_> 4.0.3?
<companion_cube> 4.03, I guess
<nullcat_> ok
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<nullcat_> ah I remember this issue
<MercurialAlchemi> (on a completely unrelated topic, I find it unreal that OCaml is going to get multicore AND algebraic effects at the same time)
<MercurialAlchemi> (the Old Ones will probably awake around that time)
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<companion_cube> well, it won't have *typing* of algebraic effects
<companion_cube> so it's not that big a deal
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<companion_cube> (though it's nice to have delimited continuations in the language)
<xificurC> the author of the reddit post for ocaml 4.03 was bashing really hard on haskell :S Not a good way to advertize
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<nullcat_> thread link?
<nullcat_> may i?
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<reynir> heh, nonrec is an interesting keyword
<nullcat_> OCaml has a time-travelling debugger?
<adrien_znc> in bytecode, yes
<nullcat_> well. never use debugger ...
<companion_cube> on bytecode, but its usability is not that great
<nullcat_> printf rocks
<adrien_znc> well, ocaml only has a debugger for bytecode since for native code it's gdb or whatever already exists
<xificurC> sorry was reading companion_cube 's link
<xificurC> (from which I didn't understand much)
<nullcat_> (from which I didn't understand much) +1
<nullcat_> read it hours ago
<companion_cube> I would have preferred a module, but well, that's nice
<xificurC> by the way, the reddit link to comments says ppx :O
<dmbaturin> xificurC: If language debate doesn't become heated, it usually means both languages are dead. :)
<xificurC> is result used somehwere? Haven't seen it yet in ocaml code, just option and exceptions
<companion_cube> xificurC: some libraries use a result-like type a lot (see: Bünzli's code)
<companion_cube> I also tend to use result
<companion_cube> or: exceptions internally, result in the interface
<dmbaturin> What's wrong with result types?
<companion_cube> nullcat_: it would be better to have type%nonrec t = t
<companion_cube> dmbaturin: nothing, except it's in Pervasives
<dmbaturin> Haskell has Either in the prelude too.
<companion_cube> yes, but you know, retrocompat? :P
<companion_cube> I have no idea whether they will add a base-bytes equivalent to ocamlfind
<companion_cube> (but I hope so)
<xificurC> dmbaturin: there was no need to have a language debate though
<xificurC> announcing ocaml 4.03 has nothing to do with a haskell vs ocaml comparison
<xificurC> you won't see the release notes saying `eat that shit haskellers' :)
<companion_cube> heh
<companion_cube> I sure hope not
<xificurC> I enjoy reading (or asking for) comparisons, it just wasn't the right place for it
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<dmbaturin> Well, a) there's rarely any need for language debate b) it's reddit.
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<kido1412> I found a great article which introduce how to wrap C functions to OCaml http://www.linux-nantes.org/~fmonnier/OCaml/ocaml-wrapping-c.html.
<kido1412> It uses ```ocamlopt -o hello.opt hello.ml hello_stubs.c```, I'm wondering if we could use corebuild to compile?
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<xificurC> alcotest, ounit, qcheck, kaputt, testsimple... any recommendations?
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<dmbaturin> I use ounit most of the time, looks like it's the most popular.
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<dmbaturin> I find the testsuite definition syntax a bit annoying, otherwise it's fine.
<xificurC> the page supplies a youtube video where the author uses Eclipse :o Is that common?
<dmbaturin> Eclipse? I'm still to meet anyone who uses eclipse here (on the other hand, maybe they are silent about it :).
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<xificurC> his editing skills are subpar i must say. mouse select, right-click, copy, click, right-click, paste
<xificurC> dmbaturin: what do you use?
* xificurC guesses vim
<companion_cube> xificurC: what do you want to test?
<dmbaturin> I'm mostly a vim user, but tuareg mode and easier merlin integration made me try emacs.
<TheLemonMan> merlin works fine in vim too
<xificurC> companion_cube: a couple small functions, e.g. a function that tests if a hand contains a straight
<companion_cube> in this case, I would use either one of qtest, ounit, qcheck
<companion_cube> (depending on whether you want unit or random tests)
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<companion_cube> qtest might be the most lightweight, as you can put tests next to the code
<dmbaturin> TheLemonMan: For some reason I couldn't get it to work with vim quickly, so I got curious if emacs integration is easier. In the end I've found out that emacs itself is not nearly as bad as I imagined it (or remember it from my early UNIX days). :)
<xificurC> dmbaturin: I liked vim bindings when I tried it (after emacs) but didn't like the program as-is (packages, configs etc). Now i use emacs with evil mode, which is like running vim inside emacs :)
<xificurC> dmbaturin: there's also spacemacs
<xificurC> companion_cube: I'm not sure what random tests could I run on that, so I guess I'm stuck with unit tests
<Unhammer> 11 years with Emacs have left my fingers in a sorry state, so I've started doing M-x evil every so often
<TheLemonMan> dmbaturin, well all you need is adding it to the rtp and start pressing ^X^O like there's no tomorrow :)
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<Unhammer> delete-blank-lines?
<dmbaturin> Guess I should try evil.
<dmbaturin> There once was a firefox plugin for vim-like bindings. I miss it.
<Unhammer> vimperator?
<Unhammer> pentadactyl?
<TheLemonMan> Unhammer, completion :D
<Unhammer> I've tried both, the first one was the less buggy, but it's still not too great, e.g. unusable in pdf.js
<Unhammer> aha
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<dmbaturin> Unhammer: Vimperator. When it died, I've tried pentadactyl, but it was entirely unusable.
<Unhammer> died? I use vimperator now .
<xificurC> I use pentadactyl (and it works with pdf.js)
<Unhammer> maybe that explains the bugs =P
<dmbaturin> Well, it stopped working since some FF version and it was abandoned. Or someone revived it?
<TheLemonMan> they didn't put out a stable release in a while but the nightlies work just fine
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<xificurC> I just hg pull -U everytime it doesn't work anymore in firefox :)
<xificurC> I don't know why they don't update the xpi on the addons page of mozilla, but a couple more strokes are worth the functionality it provides
<TheLemonMan> hrm, is merlin supposed to complete the module hierarchy too ?
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<xificurC> companion_cube: thanks for qtest, I will try using it. Which quickcheck library is used in it?
<xificurC> oh I see they have their own implementation. A third one, why not
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<xificurC> I'm still mad the package names have to be searched for. Like for qtest I have to write QTest2Lib :S
<xificurC> (which I found with `ocamlfind list | grep 'version: 2'')
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<companion_cube> erf
<companion_cube> yes, qtest is hackish in many ways
<companion_cube> but it's quite nice once setup
<companion_cube> dmbaturin: vimperator is pretty active
<companion_cube> and still nice
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<xificurC> companion_cube: looks certainly less verbose than oUnit
<reynir> that's a lot of context :)
<reynir> heh
<TheLemonMan> no news about modular implicits ?
<Drup> calm down, one awesomeness at the time, so that we can celebrate continuously.
<companion_cube> no, all of them in 4.03 !!
<Drup> I meant, one announcement.
<companion_cube> heh
<companion_cube> now the problem is whether multicore will really be in 4.03
<companion_cube> nothing's sure yet
<Drup> (and there is also codoc)
<TheLemonMan> (I feel sorry for the user 'so' heh)
* companion_cube stares at dsheets
<xificurC> 4.03 will be the ultimate release
<Drup> I'm so used to lwt that I feel uneasy about concurrency/parallelism not in a monad. :O
<companion_cube> delimited continuations are even better!
<flux> drup, how uneasy do you feel about functions that may throw exceptions?-)
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<Drup> flux: I know ;)
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<companion_cube> also, apparently someone works on macros
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<dsheets> docs are coming...
<companion_cube> now that's teasing
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<Drup> <insert picture of ned stark>
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<companion_cube> {{: http://ned.stark.io} winter is coming}
<companion_cube> wow, mirage really makes many useful libs: https://github.com/mirage/ocaml-tar
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<Guest66832> hi, I have an ocaml bytecode executable file that want to run on a different machine. Bytecode uses libcrypto 1.0.0 while the other machine has an older version. It is not simply possible to update the second machine. Is there any solution to run the bytecode?
<Drup> recompile bytecode using older version of libcrypto.
<Guest66832> or, possibly create an executable with the older libcrypto?
<Guest66832> ah, yes
<Guest66832> but how I can do that?
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<Guest66832> how I can tell ocamlbuild to use the older version of libcrypto?
<Guest66832> which is already installed
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<dmbaturin> companion_cube: Is there pure ocaml gzip?
<companion_cube> I'm not sure
<companion_cube> people have been talking about it, afaik
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<companion_cube> would be nice to have a streaming implementation
<TheLemonMan> dmbaturin, https://github.com/dinosaure/Decompress ?
<xificurC> what do you mean by streams? Are you talking abotu a concept or a specific lib
<dmbaturin> TheLemonMan: Cool, should make it possible to unpack gzipped tarballs on mirage.
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<companion_cube> xificurC: a concept
<companion_cube> means you can encode and decode by chunks
<companion_cube> with a good control of where the input comes from and output goes
<companion_cube> Bünzli's libraries are a good example (uutf, jsonm, xmlm...)
<dmbaturin> xificurC: gzip can work on byte streams rather than complete files. How stream is organized in the code is not very important, as long as it can be used to obtain the chunks.
<companion_cube> TheLemonMan: nice
<companion_cube> not packaged on opam yet, though; might not be finished yet
<companion_cube> s/finished/ready/
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<dmbaturin> Guest66832: Good question, I'd like to know it too. Should be possible.
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<Drup> And another bug found by the unfortunatly disabled warning 27 !
<companion_cube> unused function arguments?
<Drup> yes
<Drup> and pattern matching
<companion_cube> oh
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<reynir> HN discussion about multicore https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9582980
<flux> I guses there's some latent interest in OCaml given the upvotes on /r/programming :)
<Algebr> as a side note, I don't understand all the people that complain about the lack of multicore in ocaml. Are they REALLY actually needing it or are they just finding something to complain about.
<flux> well, I've had a couple times (image processing) where multi-threaded ocaml would have been a trivial way to multiply the performance. AMD 8350 here..
<flux> sure, it's doable with processes but requires already a bit more effort
<flux> for example if you have a X connection involved
<flux> and copying images over pipes isn't the best idea either if your plan was to increase performance
<flux> I don't think though that people really do that much multi-core programming. it just looms as a threat to the 'simple' way to get performance.
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<flux> of course, it remains to be seen how well it performs in various scenarios..
<flux> at least it does have some cool technology, in particular it does some work of the GC per-core, not globally?
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<flux> I guess this is very different from the GC in caml-light, which apparently did at some point support multi-core?
<Drup> for lilis, paralellizing the work is rather trivial but basically impossible without shared memory (due to the size of the stream produced)
<Drup> paralleling with fork+message passing is slower than monocore just because of serialization.
<adrien_znc> you can share memory without doing threads :)
<flux> but then you need to be careful and perhaps change the structure of the code
<flux> for example if you used to just send functions, you can't anymore
<Drup> adrien: it needs to be through bigarrays no ?
<Drup> that will ... just not do.
<flux> you probably need to really choose what kind of shared memory structure you have, and preferably make it fit bigarrays yes
<adrien_znc> Drup: depends :)
<flux> I don't even know how I would handle if I had a varying amount of shared memory?
<flux> and, of course, there's no GC for shared memory..
<adrien_znc> yeah :)
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<companion_cube> flux: I hope it won't make monocore slower
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* companion_cube wants to see Drup fit a Sequence.t in a bigarray
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<Drup> NOPE
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<vbmithr_> Hi
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<j0sh> vbmithr_: hi was there any luck in figuring out https://github.com/vbmithr/ocaml-websocket/pull/28 ?
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<flux> companion_cube, I could stand a few % loss. and I guess flambda will more than overcome that.
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<companion_cube> I hope so
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<Leonidas> 4.03 with flambda and multicore, now add modular implicits and this release will be incredible
<companion_cube> well, let's hope the release will actually contain those
<companion_cube> it would already be great
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<dora-molly> ''
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<yminsky> I don't know whether modular implicits will make it in, but we're going to push as hard as possible to get flambda in there.
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<vbmithr_> j0sh: I'll have a look tomorrow
<vbmithr_> j0sh: seriously :)
<j0sh> vbmithr_: no worries, thanks... at least it is working (weirdly) with the patch :)
<apache2> what's modular implicits? and flambda?
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<yminsky> Modular implicits are a little like type classes for OCaml
<yminsky> Flambda is a new intermediate language in the compiler that allows for much better inlining and other optimizations
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<apache2> ah! ok
<Denommus`> modular implicits seem awesome
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<yminsky> Modular implicits are going to be cool. They need Flambda to be acceptably efficient, though.
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