adrien changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml MOOC http://1149.fr/ocaml-mooc | OCaml 4.02.3 announced http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.html | Try OCaml in your browser: http://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<whitequark> let's talk about omake
<whitequark> omake is garbage.
<whitequark> not only it bootstraps for no reason whatsoever, it fails to bootstrap itself on a 32-bit OCaml, and consequently fails even harder at cross-compilation.
<whitequark> why does ocaml have so many garbage buildsystems?
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<whitequark> i shouldn't need to rewrite them every time i simply have to get something onto windows.
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<jyc> do you have a favorite? :P
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<whitequark> ocamlbuild and oasis have caused me the least amount of pain
<whitequark> after that, handwritten makefiles, which usually require only minute adjustment, assuming they were written sanely in the first place
<whitequark> I would say that about 50% of handwritten makefiles need no or trivial adjustment, and the other half needs a few dozen recompilations before I can make them work
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<adrien> being based on ocamlmakefile is a fairly good start however
<whitequark> yes.
<whitequark> well, in general, I don't care for ocamlmakefile one way or another
<whitequark> as long as you do everything via `ocamlfind`, we're going to get along.
<adrien> :)
<whitequark> OASIS is a funny case here because it does a bunch of unnecessary detection itself but then just calls ocamlfind
<whitequark> so it looks completely wrong but is actually one of the least painful cases, I think with all OASIS projects I just copy-pasted my template and it worked
<adrien> yeah, and you can easily override whatever it detects if you need to
<whitequark> which made me dislike OASIS quite a bit less
<whitequark> yeah, had to do --override ext_dll .dll
<whitequark> camlimages though...
<whitequark> i ended up rewriting its 20 kilobytes of omake garbage right inside the opam file. 120 lines and three ocamlfind invocations
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<adrien> same for ext_dll; nothing more, nothing less in the typical case
<adrien> omake is very powerful but also, well, very powerful :)
<whitequark> it's powerful in all the useless ways
<whitequark> the insides of camlimages buildsystem are horrible; omake is not a good choice for building ocaml, based on the hacks i have seen
<whitequark> all these buildsystems are trying to be 'clever' but what they should do is simply call ocamlfind ocamlmklib
<whitequark> actually, if ocamlmklib could invoke ocamldep itself, then we wouldn't need any buildsystems at all for the trivial case
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<adrien> what made me fear omake is that its tutorial explains how to bind GTK+ for omake
<adrien> like not build bindings but bind it with the omake languge
<adrien> language*
<whitequark> jesus christ
<adrien> that's what I remember; I might have misunderstood, especially since I quickly closed the page
<adrien> (let's check)
<whitequark> what made *me* fear omake in the first place was its version number
<whitequark> it is simply impossible that a healthy piece of software have a version like 0.9.8.6-0.rc1
<whitequark> and, frankly, seeing that in opam list would be obnoxious enough to prevent me from using anything that builds via omake
<whitequark> but it's actually also a horrible buildsystem too
<adrien> http://omake.metaprl.org/prerelease/omake-dll-gtk.html ; I think I have hopefully half misunderstood
<whitequark> a true unity of presentation and substance
<adrien> they use omake to make the bindings but the bindings are not for omake
<adrien> (but that's already scary)
<adrien> heheh :)
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<whitequark> if someone implements the light-weight cross-compilation proposal I have for opam then we could have cross-compilation in the main repo very soon
<adrien> :)
<adrien> the split of the tools from the compiler really got things better
<adrien> it was a nightmare before that
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<whitequark> really?
<adrien> you couldn't touch a thing without the whole thing breaking down
<adrien> breaking down somewhere*
<whitequark> I'm unconvinced
<whitequark> there weren't even any changes in the compiler that helped me.
<adrien> ocamlbuild got pulled out of the compiler and the removal of the Makefile.nt variants was simple; it was just obvious
<adrien> but in the compiler...
<whitequark> existence of opam, yes. ocamlfind patch, yes
<whitequark> oh, I don't actually use that Makefile.nt patch myself
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<whitequark> it doesn't bring any benefit, the only actual problem that it also fixes I fixed with a one-line ad-hoc patch
<whitequark> just the existence of those useless Makefile.nt files pissed me off very much
<adrien> mosts of the changes had been merged back already yeah
<adrien> but doing that hmmm, internet connection is flappy as hell
<adrien> so...
<adrien> I haven't touched the .nt files either except a couple times but they had some bits that had to be ported back to the non-.nt ones
<adrien> but for ocamlbuild that was just an example
<adrien> except there were many such examples :P
<adrien> I've been really happy to see everyone work to get rid of the .nt variants
<adrien> including Alain Frisch without whom it's very difficult to remove these variants (partly because he's added so many things in them)
<whitequark> they are aesthetically unpleasant
<whitequark> I also wish everyone would get rid of the #ml in Makefile.config
<whitequark> and it rather pleases me to have killed the ocamlmktop shell script
<adrien> the main actual issue was that they could use some variables differently from the regular Makefiles and as such if configure was changed, they could break (and well, they did)
<adrien> 20 years to accumulate cruft at every level :)
<whitequark> I'm bothered by Damien's threat to migrate to autoconf
<malc_> adrien: it still works after 20 years, and it takes only 5 for ocamlbuild to come and go
<whitequark> reasonable OSS projects migrate *from* autoconf these days, not *to* it
<whitequark> and that doesn't help the cygwinless builds too
<adrien> malc_: well, closer to 10, but yeah :)
<adrien> whitequark: well, migrating from ocaml's configure to autoconf cannot be bad; that configure script has so many issues
<adrien> but I think we need to have a clear list of actually-supported platforms
<malc_> whitequark: look to WHAT they migrate... CMake
<malc_> i'd say fuck that
<adrien> I did many changes trying to keep compat for X or Y and when X got broken, people finally said that Y didn't actually matter nowadays
<malc_> pardon my french
<adrien> heh
<whitequark> malc_: cmake is less bad than autoconf.
<adrien> but if damien only mentionned autoconf, how do you get the same with cmake?
<whitequark> cmake is also less bad than every alternative, or almost every alternative.
<malc_> whitequark: we will only learn whether this assertion is true or not in 20 years
<whitequark> note that I am not saying that cmake isn't deeply disturbing
<adrien> because that means doing the configure step with one tool but not touching the makefiles
<whitequark> no. that doesn't matter. autoconf is definitely bad enough already.
<whitequark> autoconf was never good, but for a while it wasn't quite bad enough.
<whitequark> the worst part of cmake is its idiosyncratic language. but its semantics is fairly compact and can be learned, and debugging is not hard.
<adrien> I'm OK with autoconf; in practice I find that it's known well enough now that you can use it properly
<whitequark> the idiotic amalgamation of m4 and shell does not have that property. nor does it work on windows natively.
<whitequark> adrien: you cannot build ocaml with cmake
<adrien> it's not much worse than shell scripting; it's a minefield but you can avoid the mines quite well
<whitequark> I ported LLVM's ocaml bindings to cmake
<whitequark> it doesn't scale, simple as that
<whitequark> so, I do not suggest cmake for the OCaml compiler.
<adrien> whitequark: yeah, my point, so I don't know how cmake could be used for the configure part but not the rest
<whitequark> that doesn't really make sense
<adrien> ah, ok
<whitequark> cmake is not a good fit for ocamlc.
<adrien> in any case, I really truly believe we can't do much without a list of platforms to support
<adrien> autoconf is horrible because it supports every horrible system out there
<adrien> including shells that don't handle constructs such as [ -z "${foo}" ]
<adrien> just checking if the string is empty
<whitequark> autoconf is horrible because it's based on shell, period
<malc_> adrien: shellology portion of autoconf manual is superb though
<adrien> definitely :)
<adrien> anyway, food time, and next I'll kidnap Damien and get that platform list
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<lokien> hello guys :)
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<Nazral> Does Notty uses stdin to get terminal events ?
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<Nazral> let create ?(dispose=true) ?(mouse=true) ?(input=Lwt_unix.stdin) ?(output=Lwt_unix.stdout) () = < it seems so, doesn' it ?
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<Drup> I considered using omake, because of good thing people said about it
<Drup> it is simply too low level
<Drup> and the dependency model is very unclear
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<Drup> whitequark: have you tried to port opium to your thing ? It uses omake but It didn't look *that* hackish, so I would be interested to know if it's inherent to omake or to camlimage
<whitequark> Drup: it is not "my thing"
<whitequark> well, let me show
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<whitequark> all the subtlety of a bulldozer, combined with maintainability of an iPhone
<Drup> Well, I meant opam-cross-windows
<whitequark> holy shit OCaml.om is over 1000 lines
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<ggole> Screwed by <> again! Cyclic values ftw.
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<flux> ggole, maybe the core folks are onto something.. ;)
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<ggole> Hmm? How would rebinding != help?
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<flux> of they only bound that? never mind then.
<flux> s/of/oh/
<flux> I suppose normal programming would become too arduous if = and <> were banned :)
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<toaoMgeorge> Hey Ocaml people, just out of curiosity, what do you think of this: https://github.com/mlin/twt?
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<toaoMgeorge> I really like Ocaml, but it would be a blessing for me to get rid of some synctactic noise (hehe, I can't help being picky on syntax...)
<Drup> Nobody uses it
<Drup> Actually, there is one package depending on it, by the same author
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<malc_> toaoMgeorge: decent editor will alleviate your pain
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<flux> I think twt. well, as an idea. I haven't actullay used it ;-).
<flux> s/think/like/ oops
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<companion_cube> I like the idea
<companion_cube> but it's not the default syntax and therefore 99% of people won't use it
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<Anarchos> companion_cube i am not sure if the erasure of the "in" in "let ... in ..." is semantically correct !
<companion_cube> well if it's guided by indentation...
<companion_cube> although I wouldn't have removed `in`, indeed
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<Anarchos> damn, ounit runs the test, but bisect_ppx can't put the line in green in the report :/
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<please_help> I'm trying to have a process-scope'd reference with ocsigen. The docs say that Volatile.Ext.{get,set} should only need the eref, but they also need an Eliom_state parameter. How do I construct it? I don't see a way to form client_process_scope'd states in Eliom_state.Ext.
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<Drup> The documentation says "Use it in conjunction with functions like Eliom_state.​Ext.​iter_volatile_sub_states"
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<Drup> it seems like it would do what you want
<fds> Hm, opam is giving me the error [ERROR] The compilation of conf-gtksourceview failed at "pkg-config gtksourceview-2.0".
<fds> It's generated some .out and .err files, but they are empty.
<fds> How do I find out what caused the compilation to fail?
<fds> pkg-config gtksourceview-2.0 returns 1.
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* fds reads man pkg-config
<please_help> Drup: but won't that iterate over every client state? I want only the state that is attached to the current client.
<Drup> If you only want the state attached to the current client, you don't need Ext
<Drup> you just need Volatile
<fds> I probably need to install some gtksourceview dev package through apt...
<please_help> OK, thanks. Looks like https://ocsigen.org/eliom/5.0/manual/server-state needs fixing then.
<malc_> fds: try something like: `pkg-config --cflags gtksourceview-3.0'
<malc_> but yeah you'd need the development version of the package
<Drup> please_help: oh, indeed, please report
<please_help> Drup: in ocsigen/tutorial, right?
<Drup> Yes.
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<please_help> When I try to access the reference server-side, I get "unbound value [the reference name]", when I try to access the reference client-side, I get "unbound module Eliom_reference"...
<please_help> I put my references together in a module that is to be accessed by the various other modules that need to refer to them.
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<Drup> can't answer the first, it looks like an error in your code
<Drup> for the second, Eliom_reference is server side only. If you want to acces it from the client, you need to use a server_function (hence rpc)
<Drup> (or just the usual injection stuff)
<orbitz> Hello, is there a suggested library for if one wants to run a program and get its output?
<please_help> Whether or not I open the module (i.e. [%%server open X] ... the_ref) or not (i.e. [%%server ] ... X.the_ref) doesn't seem to affect anything. The module is simply x.eliom in the main directory, and other modules are picked up correctly. I rechecked the name several times in case my eyes were tricking me, but they match... I'll try making a reduced sample.
<orbitz> Ah, looks like Process might be what I want
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<please_help> OK, the problem was that my module's name conflicted with another.
<Drup> please_help: enable warnings.
<please_help> how do I do that (with the ocsigen build system)?
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<orbitz> Is thre a suggested md5 implemetnation?
<malc_> orbitz: man Digest
<orbitz> Yaay, I find my answers as soon as I ask, twice! :)
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<Drup> please_help: there is a field for compiler flags somewhere
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<please_help> Is there a way to send a user to either a generic 404 page (as generated by ocsigen) or an arbitrary page from within a service, such as conditional on the get parameters?
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<t4nk105> What's the deal with bytes and --safe-string these days? I'm on 4.02.3 with utop. On utop I have Bytes and Bytes.of_string available but not in any code I write. Functions expecting bytes leave me using Bigbuffer.to_bytes which is really circumloquacious. Perhaps I have a misconfiguration, or is Bytes not available? Or how do I provide an arg as type bytes when I used to write "a string" in quotes and that used to suffice?
<Drup> Bigbuffer ? That sounds like a core thing
<t4nk105> It is a core thing. So what?
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<Drup> Than you might have code shadowing the usual modules ..
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<Drup> core*
<t4nk105> I'll check that out. Didnt know core shadows bytes with ... nothing?
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