adrien changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml MOOC http://1149.fr/ocaml-mooc | OCaml 4.02.3 announced http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.html | Try OCaml in your browser: http://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<Algebr`> wth opam install conf-ncurses The following dependencies couldn't be met: - magic-mime -> ocamlfind Your request can't be satisfied: - No package matches ocamlfind.
<Algebr`> oh great: available: [os = "darwin" | os = "freebsd" | os = "netbsd" | os = "openbsd"] in ncurses, im screwed on linux
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<Algebr`> what the heck is going on in opam... -camlp4.4.02+7 is in conflict with lwt.2.5.1
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<companion_cube> camlp4.4.02+7 is in conflict with lwt.2.5.1 <- meh
<companion_cube> a wild conflict appears oO
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<ohCamel> What is the Lwt equivalent for Sys.command?
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<def`> Lwt_process.shell & pread ?
<ohCamel> Maybe Lwt_process.exec is the one
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<adrien> they're not the same when it comes to handling of stdin/out/err but otherwise they match
<def`> no, exec is like Unix.exec
<def`> you will miss shell expansion (... not necessarily a bad thing)
<adrien> sorry, I meant: pread
<adrien> for exec, definitely, they're not the same
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<malina> nup nup
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<Leonidas> Algebr`: I have magic-mome installed just fine
<Leonidas> also no ncurses dependency
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<Maelan> i noticed my code (which does not actually go beyond the capacity of an int) is about 6 times slower with zarith than with plain ints
<palomer> hey everyone
<Maelan> when interpreted as well as when ocamlopt-ed
<palomer> I want to do something special in lwt
<palomer> I want to run two different thunks concurrently
<palomer> like a <&> b
<Maelan> since zarith uses plain ints for small integers, how comes such an overhead?
<palomer> but if a returns, I want everything to return
<palomer> if b returns, I want to do nothing
<mrvn> Maelan: because everything has to first check if it is a small int
<Maelan> (i use only additions, substractions, squaring and perfect_square)
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<Maelan> (and for plain ints perfect_square is implemented using int_of_float % sqrt % float)
<Maelan> mrvn, can this check alone be 5 times as slow as the int operations themselves?
<mrvn> Maelan: a branch is damn expensive
<companion_cube> there is probably a test + branching + operation itself
<companion_cube> whereas the int operation is just a few instructions
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<Maelan> ok
<Maelan> it’s a pity
<companion_cube> well, bigints come with a cost
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<ggole> Well predicted branches are super cheap
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<ggole> Might be the cost of spilling around a function call or something
<Maelan> oh, and well, i use for loops in the plain int version, what becomes while loops with a reference in the zarith version. don’t know if it matters
<ggole> I doubt it, nonescaping references are pretty cheap
<Maelan> ggole, shouldn’t the cost of function calls disappear with ocamlopt, thanks to inlining?
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<Maelan> (i tried -inline 99…)
<ggole> The functions may not be inlined if they are too large
<mrvn> or if they are C code
<ggole> Which can happen if the rarely taken half of the branch is complicated
<ggole> Partial inlining can still work in this case, but OCaml doesn't do that (iirc)
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<ggole> flambda may improve this a bit
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<companion_cube> there's also the write barrier, if you use a reference
<companion_cube> it might be the reason for the 5× slowdown
<companion_cube> Maelan: try to rewrite with a recursive function, without a reference
<companion_cube> and tell us if it's as slow
<ggole> Nonescaping references shouldn't take a write barrier hit
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<ggole> So it depends how the code is written
<companion_cube> does Ocaml analyse escaping now!?
<ggole> I think the analysis is a bit simpler than that
<companion_cube> I think it just adds barriers whenever the type is not a primitive type
<ggole> If you have a ref which is created like let r = ref ... and which is only incremented, read, set, etc, then it becomes a mutable local
<companion_cube> oh, ok, that's nice
<companion_cube> http://paste.isomorphis.me/rdW <-- it seems so
<ggole> The first is just a loop, the second shows caml_modify, etc
<companion_cube> but then maybe "assign" actually referes to camlmodify
<companion_cube> refers*
<ggole> Eh? caml_modify is the write barrier
<ggole> Which is elided in the first (nonescaping) case
<companion_cube> you're right
<companion_cube> that's cool!
<ggole> This is why the List stuff is implemented with references and is still fairly efficient
<companion_cube> which List stuff? :D
<ggole> I mean the Array stuff, sorry
<ggole> Functions like fold_left are implemented with a loop and reference
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<companion_cube> ah yeah
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<mrvn> ggole: They better not use a refrence
<ggole> Eh?
<mrvn> fold_left doesn't need one
<ggole> Array.fold_left uses one
<ggole> Because, I assume, otherwise you need an internal loop function
<mrvn> don't see why it would.
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<ggole> How would you implement it?
<companion_cube> it's not necessary, but it's convenient
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<mrvn> let fold_left fn acc arr = let len = length arr in let rec loop acc = function i when i = len -> acc | loop (fn acc arr.(i)) (i + 1) in loop acc 0
<companion_cube> sure
<companion_cube> actually it might be faster using a reference + Array.iter :)
<companion_cube> (which uses unsafe_get)
<mrvn> what would you use a reference for?
<mrvn> companion_cube: iter is a special case of fold_left with acc = ()
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<companion_cube> yes, and iter is very simple to write using for
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<ggole> mrvn: this is the "internal function" that I was referring to
<ggole> (Before flambda) this involves a jump and a closure construction
<ggole> Which the ref version avoids.
<companion_cube> you can write the inner function outside, with explicit passing of arguments
<ggole> That's much more tedious than using the ref.
<companion_cube> let rec loop_fold_ a f acc i = .....;; let fold_left f acc a = loop_fold_ a f acc 0
<companion_cube> yep
<mrvn> what would you put in the ref?
<ggole> The accumulator value.
<mrvn> and how would that avoid the inner loop?
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<companion_cube> the inner loop would be a for, not a function
<mrvn> and why (other than lifting fn) would an inner loop be slower than an outer?
<mrvn> companion_cube: for and tail recursion is the same
<ggole> let fold_left f init a = let r = ref init in for i = 0 to Array.length a - 1 do r := f !r a.(i) done; !r
<companion_cube> mrvn: not in the source code -_-
<companion_cube> we're talking convenience here...
<mrvn> reference is totaly inconvenient
<companion_cube> no it's not
<companion_cube> seriously, many functions on arrays are more convenient to write with ref/exceptions
<mrvn> i find ggole far from convenient
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<ggole> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<ggole> Oops, encoding fail
<ohCamel> Lwt_process.shell doesn't return an Lwt thread. Does it mean it returns possibly before the shell command returns?
<nicoo> ggole: No, the encoding looks right
<nicoo> companion_cube: Refs are slow, though :P
<companion_cube> depends on the type
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<ggole> nicoo: oh, it appears as a ¥ here
<ggole> Might be a font thing
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<hcarty> ohCamel: Lwt_process.shell doesn't run the application
<hcarty> ohCamel: It wraps the command you provide in syntax which should be OS-appropriate
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<nicoo> ggole: Might be
<nicoo> companion_cube: Are you saying the write barrier gets optimized away? How does the compiler even do that?
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<ggole> The reference is rewritten from a heap-allocated block to a mutable local (eg, register or stack slot)
<nicoo> Oh, and it works only for unboxed values, then (i.e. things represented as an OCaml integer, tagged as not-a-pointer for the GC)
<nicoo> Yes, that makes sense
<Kakadu> Folks, is it kind of possible to remove deepest element in the nested pairs? (where we pass a number which represents depth like we deal with dependent type)
<ggole> No, it works for any value
<ggole> The write barrier can *also* be eliminated when the contents of a ref is guaranteed to be an immediate value, even when the ref is a heap-allocated block.
<companion_cube> nicoo: for immediate types
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<nicoo> Ah, ok, I see
<mrvn> ggole: as soon as you allocate the GC needs the barrier
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<ggole> There are some other possible barrier tricks, like eliding assignment of constants
<ggole> eliding the barrier for*
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<ollehar> want to give me some input about type-inference in PHP?
<ollehar> if you have an array of objects, it's not possible to infer what object it is, only what methods and member variable it has. e.g.
<ollehar> function drawPoints($points) { do stuff with points }
<ollehar> so I thought I could infer something like the ocaml object system, structural typing.
<ollehar> function drawPoints($points : <x : float; y : float, ..>
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<ollehar> array of <x : float; y : float; .. >
<ollehar> but on the other hand, it would still be possible to type-hint the exact object, like in
<ollehar> function drawOnePoint(Point $point)
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<ollehar> but, say you have both 2dpoints (x, y) and 3dpoints (x, y, z). then it would become impossible to limit drawPoints() to 2d-points.
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<ollehar> the other alternative is to enforce type using doc coments.
<ollehar> then it would look like @param 2dpoints[] $points
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<ollehar> I'm worried a chaotic mix between nominal and structural typing will prove to be impossible to code in/maintain.
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<hcarty> Any idea why I would get this error from opam? "camlp4.4.02+7 is in conflict with lwt.2.5.1"
<hcarty> There doesn't seem to be any reason why these two would be in conflict
<ygrek> hcarty, "camlp4" {= "4.02+7"} (* lacks "camlp4.quotations.o" *)
<ygrek> ~/.opam/packages/lwt/lwt.2.5.1/opam
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<ygrek> downgrading camlp4 works
<hcarty> Ah, ok thank you!
<hcarty> I was looking at the opam.ocaml.org website rather than Lwt's opam file
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<hcarty> I'll wait for that I guess, as that will require effectively everything to rebuild
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<Algebr``> hcarty: I also got that
<hcarty> 'opam upgrade --fixup' seems to be the answer
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<hcarty> Followed by a normal 'opam upgrade''
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<flux> hmm, I wonder what I have broken in my ocamlbuild. 1) ocamlbuild -clean ok 2) ocamlbuild -j 8 webcamViewer.native ok 3) modify a source file 4) ocamlbuild -j 8 webcamViewer.native does noething and I have a zero-byte _build/webcamViewer.native
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<flux> in fact I can omit step 3
<flux> and -j 8
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<flux> this seems relevant: webcamViewer.native exists in source dir -> import it
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<flux> and strace says open("webcamViewer.native", O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_TRUNC, 0666) = 5 (and close after an fnctl FD_CLOEXEC and an lseek)
<flux> clearly it's my myocamlbuild.ml, because reverting a bunch of changes fixes it.. :)
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<flux> I guess it's bad to use Command.execute at each dispatch stage instead of just in the After_rules..
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<Anarchos> Where can i find information about test contexts in OUnit2 ?
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