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<ryan_mckenize>
Hi guys. Just thought I'd give a heads up that https://ocaml.org is blocking Google from crawling the site so all the docs might not be indexed. Can someone look into changing the robots.txt file
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<flux>
seems I don't have my github credentials at the office, so if I remember or someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll file an issue in the evening.. :) https://github.com/ocaml/ocaml.org/issues
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<ryan_mckenize_>
I'll file it now with an example of what it should be. It'll be without any specific code suggestions so someone with more knowhow can follow up
<elfring>
Does the use of parameter labels influence the execution speed for OCaml functions?
<elfring>
Are the run-time characteristics different for function arguments without labels?
<gasche>
no
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<Algebr`>
Any cool functional programming conferences coming up in Europe?
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<flux>
I'm a bit annoyed that I completely missed the one at Copenhagen, Copenhagen is a great place to visit :)
<Algebr`>
oh yea, there's like this Hans Anderson little mermaid statue I wanted to see
<Algebr`>
flux: where are you at? Scandinavia?
<flux>
technically dubious, but yes, at Finland
<flux>
company did a summer trip at Copenhagen, but it was something like 48 hours, so certainly some things were left to see ;)
<gasche>
POPL is going to be in Paris in January 2017, but it is a more theory-oriented conference
<gasche>
ICFP will be in Oxford next year (so autumn 2017) I think
<gasche>
PLDI will be in Barcelona in june 2017
<flux>
will UK still be in the EU at that point..
<gasche>
alsmot certainly yes :p
<flux>
:-)
<gasche>
I think that both ICFP and PLDI are conferences that could attract less theory-oriented practicioners
<gasche>
(ICFP has the OCaml,Haskell,Erlang,Scheme workshops plus CUFP, and PLDI/ECOOP will be combined and have Curry On, a more industry-oriented event)
<soupault>
any icfpc2016 participants here? :)
<gasche>
do you have the URL to the assignment/description?
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<gasche>
it looks like a search-heavy problem which is not my cup of tea, but it is also a nice topic
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<soupault>
Algebr`: client-oriented approach ;)
<Algebr`>
yea, when I clicked the link it ended up being .am
<Algebr`>
clever.
<soupault>
gasche: yeah, the task is complex as hell. we ended up using bruteforce unfolding up to 10sec, and if longer - just submitting a rotated square with maximum overlap :D.
<gasche>
one thing I like is that it at least gives you some experience folding origamis
<gasche>
(unlike the tetris thing of last year that I suspect didn't enhance any particular skill besides search algorithms)
<soupault>
another idea was to use convex hull approximation of a target and perform stupid folding. that could be a quite beneficial solution...
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<kakadu>
gasche_: Do they provide some free articles or trial?
<gasche_>
Kakadu: LWn.net articles are included in a weekly edition which is only available to members when it is published, but becomes publicly available a week after that
<gasche_>
which means that all past articles (except those of the very last edition) are available
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<Drup>
wrt conferences (partially) about functional programming: IFL is in bruxel in a month (I'm talking there, yay). SPLASH is in amsterdam end of october
<gasche_>
(I don't remember where in the pipeline the optimization is done, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was after lambda, that is after pattern-matching is compiled; and the pattern-matching compilers would then only optimze the simpler cases)
<ggole>
Those do produce allocating and non-allocating code, respectively.
<gasche_>
s/after lambda/at the lambda leve/
<ggole>
Doesn't seem like a particularly important case
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<ggole>
It would be a lot more convenient for the purposes of comparison if flambda were a CLI switch :/
<ggole>
I suppose there was a good reason for not doing it that way.
<gasche_>
I think the reasons is not so good: mostly, it is because flambda implementers were in a hurry and could not afford the time to have the proper interface
<gasche_>
you would think that, after the 4.03.0 release, they took the time to do it nice; but in fact they started running after the next big feature, or making a lot more changes to flambda
<ggole>
Hmm. Oh well, I'll have to write something around opam switch if I'm going to be doing that a lot.
<gasche_>
ggole: it wouldn't be too hard to optimize the allocating examples, but I think having an example in the wild where this code pattern is used would help justify the extra compiler cleverness
<gasche_>
(the optimization is only safe-for-allocation where none of the pattern clauses give a name to the tuple)
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<gasche_>
(otherwise you may make (match (if false then (true, 1) else z) with (true, x) -> (false, x) | z -> z) allocate in the z=(false, _) case)
<ggole>
Forwarding doesn't require the structure being forwarded through to be non-escaping
<ggole>
But whether it is worth writing a pass that does the necessary tricks is another question (particularly given the work is being done on a servicable IL that already exists and is not necessarily designed for uses like this).
<ggole>
I think getting this kind of optimisation without the pain of handling each case specially probably requires an IL that unifies control constructs (like CPS) so that the requisite analysis can be done once
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<mrvn>
I love CPS
<elfring>
def`: Does the double negation in your answer indicate that a comparison of pattern matching aproaches is worth for further considerations?
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<freehck>
gasche_: hello!
<freehck>
gasche_: I have an issue with your advice to use inline to keep backtrace. My project seems to use ocamlbuild and I cannot understand how to add "-inline 0" option for ocamlopt.
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<freehck>
This option is specific to ocamlopt. But it seems that -cflag[s] is used when ocamlbuild calls ocamlc, and ocamlc does not have this option. :(
<freehck>
My question is: how to modify ocamlopt options for ocamlbuild?
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<mrvn>
It's depressing when graphics cards have 8 times more memory than your whole system.
<mrvn>
"Paired with P6000 is 24GB of GDDR5X memory, running at a conservative 9Gbps, for a total memory bandwidth of 432GB/sec."
<flux>
and if you pay enough, it might even have more persistent storage (ssd)
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<ryu0>
i've been learning Standard ML recently, but i'm wondering if ocaml is a more pragmatic choice these days. Thoughts?
<flux>
I would say "yes"
<flux>
but I may be biased :)
<ryu0>
does it have most of the stuff standard ML does like type inference?
<flux>
yes, and a lot more
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<mrvn>
we all hang out in #ocaml because we are such great fans of Standard ML :)
<ryu0>
Hm. I rather do like the ML dialects. More readable than Lisps.
<ryu0>
ha.
<gasche_>
freehck: "-tag inline(0)" or "true: inline(0) # for better backtraces" in your _tags file
<gasche_>
freehck: (ocamlbuild -documentation | grep inline) would have told you
<flux>
doesn't mention opam or merlin
<flux>
maybe I should say it's "quite old" :)
<gasche_>
ryu0: you will find that, at least on the "core" parts, SML and OCaml are almost the same language
<gasche_>
if you learned one you can read code in the other
<gasche_>
and porting between them is very simple
<gasche_>
there are language and tooling and implementation differences that may make you prefer one over the other
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<gasche_>
but you shouldn't worry a lot about betting on the wrong horse, it is rather easy to switch for your next project
<ryu0>
well, SML has no formal support for unicode...
* ryu0
winces.
<gasche_>
I'm not sure what "formal support" you have in mind
<ryu0>
the strings don't support utf8 literals in most implementations for one.
<gasche_>
in OCaml, literal strings can contain unicode just fine, but belong that you will need library support
<ryu0>
encoding one portably in SML requires escaping the individual bytes of the non-ASCII sequences.
<mrvn>
even 1980s C strings can contain utf8 just fine. So not really surprising.
<ryu0>
not in SML, apparently the language forbids any bytes outside of ASCII from appearing in the literals.
<ryu0>
most implementations honor this, except 1.
<ryu0>
so, i can't just place the utf8 characters directly.
<gasche_>
let me guess; Poly/ML?
<ryu0>
no, SML/NJ.
<gasche_>
ah
<gasche_>
weird, I thought Poly/ML would pay more attention to user-interface issues
<ryu0>
from what i gathered they're more interested in SML 97 compliance.
<ryu0>
with some usability extensions.
<gasche_>
well at least with OCaml you don't have any trouble guessing which implementation people are talking about :-'
<ryu0>
yea.
<ryu0>
lol
<ryu0>
well, C never included utf8 support officially so i'm not too bothered by this, just i don't want to fight the implementation on something this simple.
<freehck>
gasche_: thank you. My ocamlbuild -documentation did not have a mention about it. But now it works fine, thank you!
<gasche_>
one nice thing about OCaml is js_of_ocaml
<gasche_>
freehck: I forgot you were using 4.01.0
<gasche_>
-documentation for parametric tags is relatively recent, sorry
<flux>
see, it's not always clear which implementation (version) one is using :-)
<freehck>
gasche_: pleased you remember :)
<gasche_>
ryu0: js_of_ocaml let you run OCaml programs on the client's browser, and it's a nice entry drug to OCaml (whenever someone with a SML program says "now it sohuld run in the browser" I'm tempted to port to OCaml to demonstrate the tool)
<gasche_>
(that said I would not be surprised if the MLton folks eventually came up with some plans for a WebAssembly backend)
<ryu0>
doesn't ocaml have its own mlton-like compiler?
<ggole>
It has a native code compiler. It isn't much like mlton except in that it produces machine code.
<mrvn>
gasche_: please just write an ocaml_of_sml
<gasche_>
that would be easy for small programs that beginners write, tricky in the general case as the type systems are different
<Drup>
gasche_: webassembly backend is probably not going to happen very quickly
<Drup>
(I expect they will have the same issues than ocaml has)
<gasche_>
I think SML -> Malfunction should be easier
<gasche_>
but it's not clear that it would be a large win over SML's implementations
<flux>
gasche_, would it allow mixing SML and OCaml code/
<gasche_>
I am wondering about that ; I think yes, but then you are back to the type system difference issue
<flux>
as I understand it, it would allow embedding SML modules in OCaml programs? (and in principle vice versA)
<flux>
it is a bit sad the ml-family guys can't leverage the type systems for interoperation and compatibility among the ml languages :)
<gasche_>
(for example records are different in OCaml and SML; but I suspect that if you only want to translate *interfaces* in a typed way, and implementations to Malfunction, you could hide the differences)
<Drup>
isn't there a strict inclusion of SML's type system into OCaml's one anyway ?
<Drup>
we got generative functors now, so that's done
<ggole>
Local exceptions?
<gasche_>
I'm not sure about things like sharing constriants, etc., at the type level
<ggole>
You might be able to use local modules with an exception inside, though
<flux>
I don't know if there are some SML modules I don't know I'm missing, though :)
<gasche_>
ggole: "let exception .. in" is coming in 4.04, implemented by Alain Frisch
<ggole>
Ooh, didn't know that
<ggole>
It does make sense.
<gasche_>
(but we still have no "let type .. in", so yeah sometimes you need local modules)
<flux>
well, those are all just new things to do old things. but when do we get recursive bindings between types and classes :/
<flux>
s/things/ways/
<Drup>
flux: you can do that too, but it's annoying
<flux>
annoying doesn't evne describe it?-)
<Drup>
(recursive modules)
<flux>
maybe if recursive modules would be lighter to use, but I don't see that hapepning
<gasche_>
recursive modules are hard, making them easier to use may make things worse in general
<ggole>
It is quite annoying that various things that introduce type bindings don't mutually recurse with type definitions
<Drup>
(and the "good" thing about recursive modules is that *everything* is hard. It's complicated to type check, to compile and to execute :3)
<flux>
also related to let exception, would it be bad to just bring all top-level-definitions 'lettable'?
<flux>
at least it would be consistent :)
<gasche_>
there is a debate about this among maintainers, not everyone agrees that "why not?" is good justification for new syntax
<Drup>
flux: I think some people of the core team were favorable to that
<gasche_>
I would like to focus on Menhir first
<flux>
I guess some are scared that it would lead somehow abundant overusage of said facilities
<flux>
but on the other hand, is it not quite strange that there are some, but not all, top-level definitions that's usable with 'let' but then others need to be embedded inside a local module..
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<flux>
how easy would it to teach that 'you have these forms you can use for defining stuff, also you can use them inside functions if you put 'let' before; don't overuse it, though'.
<flux>
sometimes adding features can simplify a language :-)
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<ggole>
"This type variable would escape" is already sometimes quite hard to understand.
<flux>
if there's one thing that I feel is sometimes too easy, is defining local functions. I should put them more often outside the function :).
<flux>
ggole, well, I can continue the script with ". also if you get obscure type errors, try moving the stuff outside the function.".
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<flux>
as you point out, ocaml already has those obscure errors.. and even in said syntax did exist, I doubt it would gain significantly more use than local modules (ie. not much).
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<elfring>
I added one function to an OCaml class.
<elfring>
Now I wonder about a corresponding constraint "'b = value:'d -> 'e" which is displayed by the command "ocamlc -i omap2b.ml".
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<kakadu>
elfring: Are you sure that you selected right maillist?
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<flux>
elfring, so what is the definition?
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<elfring>
Kakadu: I hope so for my two clarification requests a moment ago.
<flux>
I'm afraid I'm not particularly in need for an object-oriented data structure library without a compelling use case (such as c++-like iterators enabling better support for combining data structure), and those are difficult to implement just in terms of the standard containers..
<flux>
some benchmarks would in general be interesting, ie. how much the wrapper costs
<elfring>
flux: I am trying to extend an "OCaml template class library" a bit once more.
<flux>
well, plain olist, oarray, ostring and obytes might be good candidates
<flux>
if the purpose is to allow easily replacing a list with a set, for example
<elfring>
flux: How do you think about software modules like the following?
<elfring>
Algebr`: Is "OTCL" just an ordinary object-oriented interface (instead of a "replacement")?
<Algebr`>
what
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<Anarchos>
i can't install ppx_tools through opam with ocaml 4.02.3
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<Algebr`>
what happens?
<Anarchos>
Algebr` some ast_XXX.cmx files in compiler-libs are found to be no compilation unit description
<Anarchos>
it seems i mixed two attempts to install the compiler
<Anarchos>
Algebr` i cleaned the compilerlibs folder, reinstall and it worked :)
<Algebr`>
yay
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<tvynr>
I'm trying to sort out best practices for my _oasis file. My understanding is that the OPAM repository crew prefer packages *not* to depend upon OASIS at build time (and OASIS was specifically designed to prevent a build time dependency). That said, I'm having trouble organizing my repository so that I can (1) use the dynamic setup.ml while developing and yet (2) cleanly use oasis2opam to generate an opam file that doesn't rely on OASIS
<tvynr>
at build time. My Google-fu has failed me; any suggestions?
<Algebr`>
pretty sure that `oasis setup -setup-update dynamic` should be enough
<tvynr>
Algebr`: For my next version of that package, I did a gross thing where I have a "packaging" branch on which I commit static setup.ml files and keep a dynamic setup.ml in "master". But I'm not thrilled by the idea and I'm assuming other people have better solutions.
<Algebr`>
this is news to me, use oasis just fine with distribution...
<Algebr`>
perhaps someone else will answer
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<tvynr>
Algebr`: Alrighty. Thanks for the data point. :)
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<flux>
elfring, btw, this kind of library might be of more interest to the users of Reason (of Facebook fame)
<flux>
assuming they're going for the javascript crowd, a class-based interface might seem more familiar
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<elfring>
flux: Is the use of object-oientation evolving a bit more for OCaml software currently?
<flux>
it's a tool among other tools, one that's sed sparingly. I don't see that changing any time soon.
<flux>
("used")
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<Ivar>
What is the meaning of the >|= operator?
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<flux>
>|= fun x -> y is like >>= fun x -> return y but more efficient
<Guest98381>
Thanks!
<flux>
I had the answer in backlog :)
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<tvynr>
I just used oasis2opam to generate an opam file for my little library. It seems to have inferred: "ppx_deriving" {= "1.0"}. I'm not sure why this is the case, since I never constrain the version myself and my installed version of ppx_deriving is 3.3. Does anyone have a guess?
<Functors>
Is it possible for modules to auto-implement (with a functor?) a bunch of functions if they aren't available in a module so the type of that module contains all those functions?
<Functors>
The problem is that some modules might contain a subset of those functions
<Functors>
others won't have that subset
<Functors>
And the subset might vary between different modules
<smondet>
Functors: what do you want those non-implemented functions to do?
<Functors>
if they aren't implemented, I want to provide a standard implementation for some of them, some won't have to do anything if they aren't implemented
<flux>
tvynr, my guess is that it simply has failed to guess properly.. and 1.0 is its default assmption
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<smondet>
Functors: then an `include Defaults` or `include Defaults with type t := t` or alike should do the trick (?)
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<tvynr>
flux: Fair enough. :) Right now, I'm just manually removing that constraint when I publish the package, so it's not a game-ender; it's just a bit annoying. (Though not as annoying as maintaining the whole opam file myself!)
<tvynr>
flux: Thanks for the reply. :)
<Functors>
@smondet: Thanks for the suggestion, I'm going to try it that way
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<flux>
tvynr, perhaps you could try finding if it's a known issue or file one?-)
<tvynr>
flux: Indeed; I'll be looking into that soon, I hope. :)
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<ollehar>
any ocaml compiler hackers present?
<ollehar>
I have a problem with Env.t
<ollehar>
a lookup can find module Z but not module Pervasives.
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<Drup>
where does that Env comes from ?
<ollehar>
hi drup!
<ollehar>
it's in malfunction.
<ollehar>
I'm having problems adding support for floating-point operations.
<ollehar>
trying to track down this problem for some days now.
<ollehar>
I though this would fix it: Clflags.nopervasives := false;
<ollehar>
but with Env.lookup_value I still don't find Pervasives.(+.)
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<ollehar>
Drup: any idea?
<ollehar>
guess not ;)
<ollehar>
I'll try Laddfloat instead of applying
<ollehar>
I mean Paddfloat
<ollehar>
worked!
<ollehar>
finally
<ollehar>
guess I should study Lambda.mli more closely.
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<Drup>
guess you found what you wanted. Regardless, I doubt using pervasive is a great idea for you
<ollehar>
except for floating-point mod, possibly (no lambda prim for that)
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<Drup>
how is it implemented in stdlib ?
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<ollehar>
Drup: mod? not sure
<ollehar>
or: don't know.
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<Heasummn>
Can I disable warnings for a specific file?
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<Drup>
Heasummn: Sure, just either disable the warning on the command line or add [@@@ocaml.warning "-6"] at the top (ocaml ≥ 4.02)
<Heasummn>
Alright
<Heasummn>
Also, do you know how I could solve this warning if it is solvable? When opening Core.Std I get the warning: this open statement shadows the value identifier print_endline
<Heasummn>
(which is later used)
<Drup>
use "open!"
<Heasummn>
what does that do?
<Drup>
it's like "open" but it doesn't warn on shadowin
<Drup>
shadowing*
<Heasummn>
alright
<Heasummn>
I turned all warnings to errors, and I'm finding that might not have been the best idea
<Heasummn>
Because I'm using Menhir, and the pregenerated code creates some errors
<Heasummn>
But it's all compiling now
<Drup>
just pick the warnings you like, not all warnings are good for everyone
<Heasummn>
yeah
<Drup>
(and don't ever use "-warn +A -warnerror +A"
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<Heasummn>
Does that remove all warning errors?
<Drup>
no, that enables all warnings and turn them all into errors
<Drup>
which is very bad, since it's going to fail as soon as the compiler introduce new warnings in the next versions
<Heasummn>
Right now I'm using @a -4 -41. Which does exactly that lol
<Heasummn>
the -4 -41 cause of menhir
<Drup>
You should specify a range explicitely
<Heasummn>
Is there some range that people normally recommend using? Or is the default compiler one fine?