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<jgw25>
When does module initialisation (let _ = ...) etc. code get run, and in what order? To what extent is it defined? Is it by link order, for example?
<pseudony1ous>
I'm stuck wrangling with the type system - specifically, I cannot read the source and figure out how to constrain the parameterized type in another record http://pastebin.com/it5fjz27
<hcarty>
jgw25: Link order, then order inside of the module definitions
<hcarty>
jgw25: So if you link a.ml first and b.ml second, then everything in A is run in order, followed by everything in B
<gasche>
(the first link is like "tutorial", the second "reference")
<pseudony1ous>
gasche: Oh, so if I type out "[`Router ] ZMQ.Socket.t" the compiler seems happy. What is this syntax, exactly? Which concept should I be reading up on to grok this ?
<gasche>
"The order in which .cmo and .ml arguments are presented on the command line is relevant: compilation units are initialized in that order at run-time"
<gasche>
pseudony1ous: it's unclear to me what you are trying to do
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<gasche>
the module ZMQ has a module Socket that contains a parametrized type ('a t)
<chelfi>
pseudony1ous: are you referering to the [`Router ] part of your example ?
<gasche>
if you do (open ZMQ;; open Socket;;) (not actually a good idea) you can refer to it as ('a t) directly
<gasche>
otherwise, well, the long name is ZMQ.Socket.t
<gasche>
(int ZMQ.Socket.t) for example is a valid type
<gasche>
ZMQ.Socket.router is a value of type int, it is not a type, so it cannot be used here
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<gasche>
hm
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<hcarty>
pseudony1ous: If you want to constrain that type to only have a router socket then your fix is the right one
<hcarty>
pseudony1ous: gasche's answer of "parameterized type" is the term to search for/understand
<hcarty>
And that!
<pseudony1ous>
Yea the "fix" itself is what I intended, to constrain the parameterized type (lingo?) - I'm more thinking about the syntax "[`Router] ZMQ.Socket.t" - seems like I need to read up on modules for one, but where would I have learned the syntax for constraining the type ?
<pseudony1ous>
Ah - so modules & parameterized types, then.
<pseudony1ous>
gasche: Ah, I've just started reading the article you linked - hope to gain some understanding :)
<gasche>
I understand it's not very easy for a beginner to jump into a design pattern that uses lots of different concepts together
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<companion_cube>
bleh, someone suggesting slack would make OCaml appear more active
<companion_cube>
:-(
<Algebr`>
who said that
<Algebr`>
I hope slack stays far away
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<orbifx-m>
companion_cube: slack?
<companion_cube>
well, because IRC and mails are "old tech"
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<hannes>
I don't believe moving any FOSS community to a centralised closed source system is a good idea. why should we give up on federation? just because they have round corners and nice emojis?
<haesbaert>
the moment ocaml starts using slack, i say it's time to learn haskell
<hannes>
haesbaert: +1 or help resurrecting SML FWIW
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<haesbaert>
that would do to !
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<gasche>
I think your comments on Slack are a bit unfair
<gasche>
I don't care about it and certainly don't use it, but I think that refusing to engage users where they are is not going to help the OCaml community
<gasche>
StackOverflow is also a proprietary walled garden (although one may be tempted to forget it when comparing it to the worse alternatives that emerged as Quora), but I chose to answer OCaml questions there because that's where people ask them
<gasche>
I think we can both do our best to foster open discussion channels, *and* live as citizens of the world and accept to follow the fashion of the day
<Algebr`>
slack is a bad idea.
<gasche>
I would see nothing wrong with having both an IRC channel and a slack (I'd rather Mattermost) channel, or XMPP, etc.
<gasche>
I'm not saying anyone would be forced to use it
<gasche>
but I think refusing it on principle is hurting OCaml more than Slack
<companion_cube>
well, first we would need a free Slack channel
<companion_cube>
then, an IRc bridge to this channel (don't know if it's even possible actually)
<gasche>
I sort of have the same attitude regarding text editors, by the way
<gasche>
I would never use a proprietary editor myself, and don't care for the new web stuff, but we must follow users where they are
<companion_cube>
the point about vim/emacs is a bit misleading, btw: there is also atom
<Algebr`>
gasche: the users ought to come here, where the experts and intermediates are.
<haesbaert>
I'm not sure the follow users where they are is a good approach
<gasche>
Algebr` but users are not informed of these choices and they already pay a large cognitive cost by learning something new
<Algebr`>
gasche: which is why there are support systems like twitter, stackoverflow, meetups
<gasche>
is twitter better than Slack?
<Algebr`>
I think slack will divide and eventually do some kind of paid thing, like github did
<Algebr`>
paid reversal
<Algebr`>
perhaps a more objecive approach is to ask the haskell folks how it went, i think they tried slack? or still do?
<hcarty>
companion_cube: And VS Code, which has quite nice OCaml support at this point
<companion_cube>
yeah right
<gasche>
hannes: is your point that one can export? because I think that we could, on an OCaml channel, ask participants to agree on a license for the content they produce
<companion_cube>
Algebr`: #haskell is a large, active and welcoming channel
<companion_cube>
gasche: slack doesn't allow you to export the logs... unless you pay
<Algebr`>
companion_cube: we are also active and welcoming
<Algebr`>
maybe not as large lol
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<haesbaert>
I honestly think if the goal is to attract developers, just improve the documentation
<haesbaert>
I _guess_ this is what most people care, no ?
<haesbaert>
on a personal level I was put off by the lack of ocamlbuild documentatoin when I started
<gasche>
well the point that "sign-up on a mailing-list or IRC channel" feels out of fashion is also true, I think
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<gasche>
but of course your help improving documentation is welcome :-)
<haesbaert>
that's a valid point, which other "serious"/"successfull" projects moved away from irc/mailiing lists ?
<Algebr`>
haesbaert: agreed, beautiful lwt docs would do more than slack could
<Algebr`>
the ocamlbuild manual markdown is aweosme though
<haesbaert>
personally I stop contributing to a project the moment they make me create a bugzilla id, or something like that
<haesbaert>
Algebr`: true, the new one is very good
<haesbaert>
at least a mailing list doesn't require you to subscribe
<haesbaert>
everyone has email
<gasche>
hum
<gasche>
I think your policy is rather intolerant
<gasche>
but to everyone their choices
<haesbaert>
it is, I'm being a bit hyperbolic too
<Algebr`>
oh, speaking of which, the ocaml office hours in SF are improving steadily, have a regular group of people coming and new faces come each week.
<haesbaert>
but it's really painfull to create ids for every project you want to open a bug or send a diff
<companion_cube>
gasche: oh. maybe that's only for private channels
<gasche>
the person that mentioned Slack on the mailing-list also mentioned gitter.im, I don't know what that is but maybe it's less unpleasant?
<gasche>
Algebr` I never heard about those
<Algebr`>
gitter is that oasis thing web chat thing right companion_cube
<gasche>
which means you're probably not doing a good enough job of advertizing their existence
<Algebr`>
gasche: ha! I've been doing OCaml office hours in San Francisco every week
<gasche>
why don't you send an email to the caml-list, or maybe a post on Reddit, to let people know that they exist?
<gasche>
(I'm sure you talked about it locally in the area, but I think it's good to let the community at large know about it as well)
<Algebr`>
Oh that caml weekly email could look more pleasant too, email can do HTML/CSS
<haesbaert>
personally I'd like to see a successfull case of a project moving to slack or something similar, they should have a good feedback
<gasche>
Algebr`: I'm sure Alain Schmitt would welcome advice on how to format the email, if it doesn't require too much work on his part
<gasche>
haesbaert: I don't think it's "moving" in the sense of closing IRC and moving to something else
<Algebr`>
don't think you'll be coming any time soon?
<haesbaert>
it's in the wrong part of the world you know :D
<Algebr`>
heh
<haesbaert>
by wrong I mean, where I'm not
<gasche>
what's Mixrank, does it use OCaml internally?
<gasche>
(google search it's a company that sells slightly scary marketing tools)
<Algebr`>
I worked there and I used OCaml
<companion_cube>
Algebr`: yes, gitter is that
<Algebr`>
gasche: no, we sold SDK information from iOS apps
<Algebr`>
using OCaml in production there
<gasche>
in any case
<gasche>
you should send a caml-list email to popularize the office hours
<gasche>
not necessarily one everytime, but once in a while
<Algebr`>
sure, will include in message about formatting
<gasche>
for example, do you have specific talks? you could give a list of past talks (and maybe a link to slides?) in your email
<gasche>
ah you mean having Alain mention them in his letter
<gasche>
that's independent
<gasche>
(1) let caml-list know about it (2) have Alain mention upcoming sessions in the newsletter
<Algebr`>
k
<gasche>
on the "get users where they are" general idea, I think the move to Github was quite successful
<haesbaert>
+1 for github
<Algebr`>
ya, github was good
<companion_cube>
yeah
<Algebr`>
what the heck is safe_camlp4
<companion_cube>
but the entry barrier is still very very high
<companion_cube>
I also second gasche that tooling is too complicated
<edwin>
it provides a unified interface for reporting problems, getting the code, searching through the code, thats good. OTOH I know some people who think that code that only exists on github is of low quality (i.e. someone just dumped it there and forgot about it). Fortunately most projects also have a 'homepage' elsewhere than github
<lostman>
is it possible to compile js_of_ocaml without camlp4?
<hcarty>
Tooling is definitely too complicated. Need opam + oasis + merlin + ocp-indent + editor configuration is a lot to ask from someone maybe interested in the language.
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<hcarty>
lostman: With more recent versions maybe?
<Khady>
what are the examples of languages with simple tooling ?
<companion_cube>
java :D
<companion_cube>
install intellij, and you're done
<companion_cube>
(I'm not even kidding)
<lostman>
the 2.8.1 still requires camlp4. I wonder if it's gonna go away fully. I could get it working with +32 bit version of the compilers on mac os; camlp4 doesn't compile
<Khady>
companion_cube: as long as you have 0 dependencies, no?
<lostman>
so was wondering whether could somehow get jsoo compiled without it
<gasche>
I think go's tooling is excellent
<companion_cube>
Khady: bah, I think it's easy to add a .jar
<Khady>
I'm not saying that the state of the ocaml tooling is perfect, just that I don't know a simple one
<gasche>
but in any way "tooling is too complex" is true in an absolute sense, I don't need to see proof that others are better to tell
<companion_cube>
gasche: not sure Go has anything similar to merlin though
<Algebr`>
most likely reason will bundle this all up correctly
<companion_cube>
I'd say rust has good tooling too (though racer is nowhere near the quality of merlin)
<companion_cube>
but at least go and rust are EASY to build
<edwin>
when I look at examples of using Go with CI tools it is usually 'go build', 'go test' (and maybe 'go get'), quite straightforward
<Khady>
gasche: sure, just wonder where who can look for a good inspiration
<companion_cube>
I tried a bit on vscode, and the completion was poor
<companion_cube>
(this configuration list isn't simple at all :s)
<gasche>
hm
<gasche>
this specific list is not simple
<companion_cube>
the big difference is the build system, I think
<edwin>
well dependencies in intellij used to be quite easy, you just download the jar file you want and add it. if you want something more sane than checking in .jar files into your repository there is maven and gradle
<Khady>
I think that it's more about the doc than about the tooling. For simple workflows (for beginners), we could have a straighforward path
<companion_cube>
which is the single biggest gripe I have with ocaml
<gasche>
but it does highlight that gomode has jump-to-def, type-directed feedback, show-me-the-doc and whatever
<gasche>
which I think was your question
<companion_cube>
oh ok, nice then
<companion_cube>
(seems they have one tool for each task)
<edwin>
also intellij has a python edition (pycharm), and apparently there (was?) a plugin for ocaml that bitrotted
<edwin>
not sure if it'd be possible to write an intellij plugin that used merlin
<companion_cube>
probably, but you need more work to make a good plugin, I think — one that makes every basic task available through clics and default configs
<pseudony1ous>
wrt. slack & gitter -- Moving to those would be unfortunate. In either case you're bound to their existence and should they cease to be, your community is dead. Moreover, any community platform is only as valuable as the communication it facilitates. Spreading across a multitude of channels (IRC, slack, gitter.im, mattermost, ...) does little but reduce the utility of any one place as a means of actual
<companion_cube>
and you still have the problem of build system(s)
<Khady>
I'd like to have a getting started page on ocaml.org with a content similar to this go blogpost
<pseudony1ous>
ly getting competent help. Finally, gitter.im is horribly aggressive - I tried it because a project owner argued it was more user "friendly" - It basically carpet-bombs your email inbox because it's, at the end, a commercial service which wants "user engagement". It's about their growth, not its utility to you
<Khady>
it wouldn't be longer
<pseudony1ous>
Sheesh, very sorry about that. It seems I wrote a novel..
<gasche>
companion_cube: iirc. the go buildsystem uses the idea from redo, which are really excellent
<companion_cube>
I never heard of redo
<gasche>
(Nicolas Pouillard worked on a redo-based build system for OCaml for fun after he did OCamlbuild)
<companion_cube>
but I know cargo has good design decisions, too
<companion_cube>
(even compared to opam)
<edwin>
what seems nice about go's tools is that they have single toplevel command that has most of what you need to get started, I don't think ocaml necesarily needs yet another build system, but wouldn't hurt to have a wrapper around it to make it easier to find all the pieces
<companion_cube>
I think rust uses discourse quite a lot, btw
<gasche>
edwin: yeah, I would like to take the "ocaml" command name back
<gasche>
but I think that's just a detail
<companion_cube>
I'd like to have a single, good, build system :(
<gasche>
I mean there are usability problems with build systems today that won't vanish if they're called "ocaml build"
<companion_cube>
^
<gasche>
companion_cube: I've seen your thread on solvuu btw., haven't had time to get into it yet
<companion_cube>
(have you seen this solvuu_build tool, btw?)
<companion_cube>
heh :D
<gasche>
it looks nice
<edwin>
whats important is that when you want to do something more advanced you're not suddenly left in the dark when you want to go beyond the ability of the wrapper
<Algebr`>
edwin: npm is basically that for js
<gasche>
(I think Nicolas Pouillard would be proud)
<companion_cube>
yeah, it looks nice to use, more than ocamlbuild anyway
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<companion_cube>
heh
<Algebr`>
I don't know why we can't resuse something like ninja?
<edwin>
oasis is nice to get started, if you want something done a bit differently you need to learn ocamlbuild though
<companion_cube>
also, the disastrous state of OCaml build systems is partially the language's fault
<companion_cube>
it's really a pain to compile, and has weird concepts like packs
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<hcarty>
ocamlscript is (almost) very nice as well, aside from the camlp4 dependency. It makes simple projects very easy to create with little to no external configuration.
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<edwin>
there's also the problem that setting up opam on fedora (or any RHEL-based) distro is a bit of a pain, due to lack of aspcud
<edwin>
one has to rely on the cloud solver or a docker container
<gasche>
hm
<gasche>
edwin: I installed aspcud on my fedora
<companion_cube>
opam is also part of the complicatedness of OCaml's tooling
<gasche>
by using copr
<Khady>
I'd be curious to compare the "compicated" tooling of ocaml to the "simple" tooling of python. I'm pretty sure that the main difference isn't the tooling but the doc
<pseudony1ous>
And, it should be mentioned, Open Suse's OBS (Open Build Service) would allow you to roll your own RPM's. Finally, we're moving into the promised age of Snap packages, flatpacks and app images - distribution will soon be solved.. (right ? riiight? ;) )
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<edwin>
also if someone created the copr I wonder why its not in the official repos yet, or its just slow review process as usual
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<gasche>
I emailed th packagers, but I don't remember the detail
<gasche>
you contacting them to show interest may help
<gasche>
I'll check my inbox
<edwin>
I should see if I can help with that (I'm actually in the fedora packagers group, but not in the fedora sponsors group, so I can package new software if another packager approves it, but I cannot approve new packager's packages)
<gasche>
that's the email exchange I had with the Fedora folks
<companion_cube>
Khady: python is super simple to begin with: no build system
<companion_cube>
just write the scripts and run them
<companion_cube>
the complexity comes gradually
<edwin>
thanks
<Khady>
my experience is that it comes very quickly
<Khady>
I mean, the complex part isn't to install opam, ocamlbuild or virtualenv
<gasche>
edwin: I think this thread left me with the impresison that people more familiar than me with the Fedora community were handling the opam side of things
<gasche>
so I didn't do much else
<pseudony1ous>
companion_cube: theoretically. FWIW I've been trying many different languages these past months. I actually think Ocaml was the easiest thing to just get going - even getting it plugged into an editor.
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<edwin>
yeah actually I've seen quite a few opam related packages submitted by someone from Citrix
<gasche>
(I find dnf quite unusable; I have no clue how to know where a package on my system was installed from, and "dnf repolist" doesn't show me the copr stuff I thought I had setup)
<edwin>
unfortunately they went nowhere, took about a year to get a reply from a sponsor, and then the ticket got closed a few weeks later because the submitter didn't reply
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<edwin>
dnf is dead slow
<gasche>
well
<gasche>
it also make "git" look like a usable hub-of-commands
<gasche>
I have no clue how the subcommands are named, and when I find the one I want I have no clue how to use it
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<Algebr`>
dnf is also slow...its python
<Algebr`>
not sure what was wrong with yum
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<pseudonymous>
/leave
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<orbifx-m2>
Crazy talk on the list..
<orbifx-m2>
No IRC, no lists?
<orbifx-m2>
Tststs
<orbifx-m2>
What next? Patch submissions via Facebook? :P
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<Kakadu>
It was not "not IRC" but "not just IRC"
<Kakadu>
It will be great to have slack-like web UI for freenode
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<orbifx-m2>
I know, I'm messing. There are web based IRC frontends. Fracturing the community might have the opposite result. And I'm sure that others like me, had enough of proprietary wills.
<orbifx-m2>
s/wills/silos
<orbifx-m2>
Also, I noticed your comment kakadu. You should tell IT that as a developer you need IRC access
<Kakadu>
Why I need this? I don't do ocaml on paid work.
<orbifx-m2>
I had a similar problem, only to come in the office go find my computer taken. The baffoons thought it became part of a botnet Lol..
<M-jimt>
kakadu: Vector.im (using the Matrix.org bridge) is a pretty cool interface for IRC https://vector.im/beta/#/room/#freenode_#ocaml:matrix.org
<orbifx-m2>
IRC has channel for almost any computer technology
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<pierpa>
please don't mention facebook on th elist. People won't get it's a joke
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<Kakadu2[m]>
So, it should be bridge to IRC?
<Kakadu>
Wow, it works!
<Kakadu>
omg
<Kakadu>
cool
<Kakadu>
M-jimt: Thanks a lot
<Kakadu>
It is maybe the best thing happend in this year
<orbifx-m2>
pierpa: lol
<orbifx-m2>
It's mental how people have come to understand the Internet this days. It's like HTTP is the de facto extension to TCP
<orbifx-m2>
And people think the browser is the OS.
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