flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml MOOC http://1149.fr/ocaml-mooc | OCaml 4.03.0 announced http://ocaml.org/releases/4.03.html | Try OCaml in your browser: http://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<gasche> Algebr` : any string, that's a declarative model
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<Algebr`> which are declarative models
<gasche> (well any sequence of word-characters without spaces, that is)
<gasche> well
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<gasche> in your myocamlbuild.ml you can attach a meaning to any word
<gasche> and in your _tags you can use any word
<gasche> I think you are asking about which words are given a specific meaning by the built-in rules for OCaml compilation
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<gasche> but you should understand that there is no such thing as an "invalid" tag; there are not-yet-defined tags
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<Algebr`> i see
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<Algebr`> for C code that is linked with OCaml, which code gets executed first, the OCaml or C code?
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<lostman> what is the difference between "<src/*.ml{,i}>: js_of_ocaml.ppx" and "<src/*.ml{,i}>: package(js_of_ocaml.ppx)". the former can be found in _tags in janestreet/virtual_dom package. that compiled on linux but I couldn't get it built on mac os with +32bit compiler (which I compiled myself because the one from opam has dynlink disabled and couldn't get
<lostman> js_of_ocaml to build without it). So virtual_dom was failing with error related to ##. syntax and I put package(js_of_ocaml.ppx) in _tags and then it compiled fine. Just not sure what is going on here
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<Drup> lostman: looks like a bug to me.
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<lostman> Drup: what is the bug? That it is not "package(...)"? I'm not very familiar with _tags but I always write package(js_of_ocaml.ppx) in my own code.
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<Drup> yes, it should be package(..)
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<lostman> cool, thanks for clarifying
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<Bluddy> IRC regulars -- how do you feel about switching to/connecting to gitter.im?
<pierpa> You are either too late for this year april 1st or to early for next year one
<Bluddy> hehe
<Bluddy> Do you have experience with gitter?
<pierpa> I know enough about it to not be interested
<Bluddy> well the idea is that IRC is really hard for beginners to connect to
<Bluddy> also, many people can't connect to IRC at work
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<pierpa> then they should not waste time with computers
<Bluddy> wow. harsh
<Bluddy> That's not the kind of sprit that'll enable OCaml to grow.
<pierpa> how can they not connect to irc but use gitter?
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<flux> I understand the main benefit of these irc competitors is that the channel history is integrated into the chat.
<edwin> although I personally don't like browser-based messaging apps. I feel most confortable with whatever has a pidgin plugin, or thunderbird integration :)
<flux> functionality-wise, of course web-accessibility also makes it more accessible
<Bluddy> Let me show you what gitter looks like, and how easy it is to get there: https://gitter.im/neovim/neovim
<pierpa> flux: IRC is web-accessible
<Bluddy> there are also android and OSX apps for gitter which make it even easier to keep in touch
<flux> pierpa, and irc with persistent backlog is also web-accessible?
<Bluddy> IRC is somewhat web-accessible, but not for people who haven't taken the time to learn a little about IRC
<pierpa> no idea on this one
<jonasen> How is the android app?
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<Bluddy> The OSX app is great -- haven't tried android.
<Bluddy> Sorry OSX and iOS
<Bluddy> I'm using both for gitter
<jonasen> ok, I guess the quality should be about the same
<pierpa> and then who cares about backlogs. Instant messaging is not the appropriate medium for things worth referring back at later time
<edwin> I used gitter once to ask a question about a project, and although I don't think I signed up for any notifications it kept sending me an email with 'unread messages in <...the channel...>' until I told it to stop
<Bluddy> Additionally, neovim (the project I linked to above) has made a bridge between gitter and IRC
<Bluddy> @edwin: you're right, but you can mute any channel in gitter, where it'll only notify you if someone calls you by name
<pierpa> so what's the problem? is there exist a bridge then use it
<pierpa> *if
<_y> Bluddy, i gave my opinion on the mail i just wrote
<flux> the most annoying thing with these irc-replacement is that the client program is one and only app, and only the service provider can enhance it
<_y> indeed
<flux> the second most annoying is that they seem all be centralized so that one party controls all the servers
<_y> and the browser+js as an operating system
<pierpa> Bluddy: if you prefer gitter, and you say there is a bridge, what is the problem you are trying to solve?
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<edwin> the interface of vector.im linked on the ML thread seems vaguely like gitter
<_y> is the bridge bidirectional?
<edwin> (although joining this channel on vector.im is not very intuitive, you have to register, then join, then accept an invitation, then finally switch to the channel)
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<Algebr`> i don't like gitter because its extremely spammy and annoying
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<Bluddy> I just tried vector.im, and even though it looks good in theory, I haven't been able to connect to this channel
<test47[m]> hello from vector.im
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<Bluddy> _y : yes it is bidirectional
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<flux> sadly proper irc-integration would mean a custom irc server no irc network wants to hook up (though I suppose it's alright if it runs on a server of its own, you can do that redundantly)
<flux> but then the matter of proper smooth integratiion it with these irc-replacements, that again is impossible without vendor co-operation :/
<flux> so you get this proxy that logs in with one user account and repeats whatever said on the other side.. not elegant imo :/
<Bluddy> @Algebr` I also thought gitter was spammy, but you can easily mute a room
<_y> Bluddy, « to a large degree because IRC is
<_y> simply not being used actively anymore »
<_y> erm
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<Algebr`> Bluddy: do you work for gitter?
<edwin_vector[m]> https://vector.im/beta/#/register register with username/password (email optional)
<edwin_vector[m]> solve the captcha
<edwin_vector[m]> open https://vector.im/beta/#/room/#freenode_#ocaml:matrix.org
<edwin_vector[m]> click join
<edwin_vector[m]> set display name: edwin_vector
<Bluddy> Algebr`: no I don't. I just have the interests of enlarging the OCaml community at heart, including getting newbies in
<Algebr`> surely.
<Bluddy> and i've seen projects with gitter and compared it to projects with IRC
<edwin> vector.im bridge seems sane, it joins as a separate user, not a single user for all vector.im people
<Algebr`> linux uses irc, mailing lists and seems to do fine. llvm as well methinks
<edwin> UX of joining IRC on vector.im could be improved though
<Bluddy> OMG I'm on vector.im and I'm trying to find this channel (only having learned the correct name from edwin above) and it's a nightmare!
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<Bluddy> ok finally
<_y> hmmm the light, shiny js
<edwin> the ideas behind matrix.org (the backend of vector.im I guess) look good, and have the features that you are looking for:" Matrix is an open standard for decentralised communication, providing simple HTTP APIs and open source reference implementations for securely distributing and persisting JSON over an open federation of servers."
<_y> at least it warms my desk up
<_y> > the script stopped working
<Bluddy> yeah the main page looks awesome
<edwin> I wonder whether the other clients are any better than this vector.im: http://matrix.org/docs/projects/try-matrix-now.html#clients
<Bluddy> ok now that i'm in the room via vector.im, it's not so bad
<edwin> btw that gitter<->IRC bridge you linked to, also uses matrix under the hood?
<_y> by the way, doesn’t XMPP provide history?
<Bluddy> yeah it does
<Bluddy> i meant edwin: yes it does
<edwin> jabber does yeah, we're using it at work, its not very convenient for mobile though (getting blasted with 1-2MB of history everytime you join)
<edwin> for desktop it works well though
<_y> i never tried xmpp myself, but it has been introduced to me as the modern, open standard to supercede irc
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<_y> so why considering yet another chatting system (that one closed)
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<pierpa> because of the web page with cute icons
<Bluddy[m]> truthfully, vector.im is pretty impressive
<Bluddy[m]> though it's probably still a good idea to open up a gitter room for new members to find easily. Just for reference: ocaml/oasis is already a room on gitter. If we use the matrix bridge, we'll have everything archived anyway.
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<edwin> Bluddy[m]: if I paraphrase your question "Bluddy: IRC regulars -- how do you feel about switching to/connecting to gitter.im?", "IRC regulars -how do you feel about answering questions from people joining via a gitter.im/etc. bridge?" I don't think there would be many objections
<edwin> provided that there is some obvious way to identify those people (looks like vector.im adds [m] suffix)
<_y> does this thing work well on mobile? because it pains my laptop (not a masterrace gaming computer, but still)
<Bluddy[m]> _y: It seems to work fine on mobile, from the experimentation I've done.
<Bluddy[m]> which wasn't much, I should add.
<edwin> Bluddy[m]: if you want to make it easier for people to join this channel using a browser, could the webchat link from the ML be advertised better? http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#ocaml
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<edwin> hmm so it got lost in translation?
<_y> oh right, i missed the .fr
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<Bluddy[m]> It's also a pretty bad interface IMO. A link to a gitter page will be much more welcoming, or to vector.im with a guest account if that's possible.
<Bluddy[m]> Ugh just tried it... can't join this channel as a guest account?
<Bluddy[m]> Or is that just a vector.im problem?
<Bluddy[m]> Trying this link: https://vector.im/beta/#/room/#freenode_#ocaml:matrix.org
<edwin> I don't know who set up that vector.im room, but if you click the wheel next to ocaml there are some settings you can change if you are a moderator
<Bluddy[m]> OK looks like the admin who created the room is the official matrix admin, I think. Trying to contact.
<jhaberku> Bluddy: I'm not enthused by the hostile response you're getting. Let me know if you want another tester of some kind. :-)
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<Bluddy[m]> jhaberku: Thanks for the support. I totally get it though -- programmers really like the things they use daily, and we're in a niche where everything advances around us constantly. It's hard to be open to new tech -- I'm like that also and I have to force myself. From OCaml's perspective, though, we want to do the best we can to attract new programmers. Any hurdles in user experience hurt all of us ultimately.
<Algebr`> its not just new tech, its another for profit startup thing using open source communities as a free base
<Algebr`> and to just say its because programmers are programmers is a little disingenious
<Bluddy[m]> Algebr` I understand, but they are also providing a level of usability that makes things easier for newcomers in particular. You could say the same thing about github, but github undoubtedly provides a massive leap in usability to everyone (as much as we can criticize the ongoing monopolization of source hosting)
<Bluddy[m]> Don't get me wrong, I'm not dismissing the concerns. I just think that it's probably worth it. There's no huge lock-in with gitter. If they sink, they'll be abandoned by masses of projects who will move to other solutions, and so would we. It's especially safe if we're just using it as another avenue that connects to IRC via a bridge.
<Bluddy[m]> The lock-in is much greater with github, and even there I think it's worth it.
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<jhaberku> I see it as a trade-off too, and making a bridge seems like a reasonable compromise. The only conceivable problem I could imagine from an IRC user's perspective is if bridged users are more noisy than normal users in terms of spam-y metadata or notifications.
<pierpa> Bluddy: if you prefer gitter, and you say there is a bridge, what is the problem you are trying to solve?
<pierpa> do you want your gitter bridge mentioned on ocaml.org page? ask the maintainers of that page
<Algebr`> or just add it in a pr
<Bluddy[m]> I don't have admin access to the OCaml github repo, nor do I have the server on which to host the bridge (which also requires github credentials). Therefore, I'm trying to convince those who do have access to those things that this is a worthwhile endeavor. See the ongoing discussion in the mailing list, entitled 'how to encourage adoption of OCaml?'
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<pierpa> when asked what's the problem they want to solve they disappear
<Algebr`> Bluddy: just open an PR with the addition you want
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<Bluddy[m]> Algebr`: It's not about opening a PR. There is one simple action to be carried out on the gitter.im page (Creating a room for the OCaml repo), followed by using an ocaml organization server (and github credentials) to carry out the setup instructions here: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-gitter. The PR adding the link to the ocaml.org site is the last step.
<Algebr`> ahhh
<pierpa> and then someone must take care of the bridge. Any volunteers?
<Bluddy[m]> pierpa: I included the bridge in the description above. The bridge is the biggest part.
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<pierpa> yes, I added that someone must take responsibility for its operation
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<Bluddy[m]> oh i see.
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<tormen> Hi. I get tuples of different sizes via pgocaml (postgresql db query). I would like to write a generic wrapper function that is able to extract the id (stored as fst element in the tuples).
<octachron> tormen, short answer: there is no generic function that extract the first element of tuple of arbitrary size
<tormen> octachron: And if I am willing to write 50 functions for tuples from size 2-50.
<tormen> ... can I then somehow make ocaml compile my code ? ;)
<tormen> octachron: I can also have the tuple size (as int) if that helps!
<octachron> tormen, you will need to select the right function yourself
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<octachron> i.e. use first_of_2, ..., first_of_50
<tormen> I am trying... but if I write: let fst_of_row = function |2 -> fun (x,_) -> x |3 -> fun (x,_,_) -> x ... the compiler does not like my change of tuple size... how can I
<tormen> circumvent that problem ?
<zozozo> tormen: tuples size must be known at compile time
<octachron> you cannot, from the type system point of view (a * b), (a*b*c), etc are completely unrelated types
<tormen> octachron: and can you think of any possibility to choose the functions first_of_2 .. first_of_50 using the tuple_size variable ?
<tormen> octachron: so I probably CANNOT and have to "hardcode" instead of the tuple_size the first_of_x function, right ?
* tormen sometimes wishes he would have already programmed more in a striclty typed language :/
<octachron> tormen, depends what you means with hardcode, but yes
<tormen> octachron: "hardcode" = in the function call of my wrapper function (that will use the first_of_x function)
<tormen> octachron: thanks! && zozozo as well :)
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<octachron> tormen, a good way to feel the problem might be to try to write the type of the function that you are trying to write
<tormen> octachron: very kind offer. For this time I'll pass though, because your answer is THE answer :) ...
<Bluddy[m]> tormen: At least until modular implicits arrive in the language... if that ever happens.
<zozozo> Bluddy[m]: even with implicits, I don't see how to have functions that take tuples of arbitrary sizes, do you have an example ?
<Bluddy[m]> zozozo: You'd have to make an instance for each tuple size, but the specific function call would be resolved automatically.
<zozozo> I see
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<orbifx> so noisy these gitter folk on the mailing list... too much email!
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<zozozo> orbifx: you don't like gitter ?
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<orbifx> it's closed souce, for profit
<orbifx> never used it
<zozozo> and github ?
<orbifx> I use github, for now.
<orbifx> it's more interoperable and no great alternative. Although I also used nongnu.org
<orbifx> why?
<zozozo> just curious
<zozozo> personnaly, I think that if it helps begginers, it's probably worth it
<orbifx> K. Its not my ideal option, but Github is interoperable because of Git over SSH and HTTP. If that wasn't the case, or they needed an account for read access, I'd not use it.
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<orbifx> zozozo: it is true. Those starting with computers this decade have completely different starting points. But it sets a really bad precedent. Folk should learn to use open systems. It's fine if they want to setup a community there, sure.. but to bring people here, not for the community to move there.
<zozozo> you're afraid of people leaving the channel ?
<orbifx> The channel can in theory go extinct because people don't end up.
<orbifx> And maybe that isn't a problem with OCaml, but there is a pattern on the web. It is in those companies' interest to grow their silos.
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<orbifx> * don't end up here
<zozozo> indeed
<orbifx> And the guys pushing for this (and good on them), are not taking in on the points.
<orbifx> Andreas expanded on something I should have when I put my view forward, on the merits on the mailing list.
<orbifx> And someone came back with one counter point on one annoyance they have!
<orbifx> Sure ok.. go discuss it on the email standard mailing list or something :P
<zozozo> I think they are mainly concerned for the newcomers (well, potential newcomers), and not really considering the global view as much as you
<orbifx> Yes. We should tackle that with documentation and youtube videos. Which tell someone how to get on the mailing list.
<orbifx> And they will have learned more than OCaml on that day
<orbifx> and IRC.
<orbifx> Had a potential canditate come in the office in the past week. Not suitable for our requirents, but good to talk anyway.
<orbifx> I told them to do two things: engage with a FOSS project of their liking and get on IRC
<orbifx> Seriously.. how can someone go through computer science course and not know about IRC?
<zozozo> I agree that irc is good (though sometimes it can eat up quite some time, :p )
<zozozo> I'd say that rather than not knowing irc, to have a really nice experience with irc, you need to have some kind of server or a computer almost always on, in order to have some backlog, and it might be not easy for anyone ?
<orbifx> There are websites that do that. But I don't see a benefit for having a backlog
<orbifx> I think in my whole experience I needed to look at a log only a few times and that was my clients log
<zozozo> well, when you arrive in the middle of a discussion, it's nice to knwo what people are talking about
<zozozo> though perhaps logs are more useful for talking/private channels rather than technical ones like #ocaml
<orbifx> if you arive in the middle just ask?
<zozozo> on a side note, I sometimes use queries to replace sms, so having logs/continuous presence is useful
<orbifx> Have you heard that story of how the Americans needed to write in space and did a mega project to invent a special pen, and the Russians just use a pencil?! :P
<zozozo> yup, pretty fun story indeed
<orbifx> There are technical reasons behind the special pen... but I like the ethos behind the point of this.
<orbifx> We fall in a mode of wanting everything to neat instead of getting on with it.
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<orbifx> s/to neat/to be neat/
<zozozo> what do you think of the ocaml forum that was proposed ?
<orbifx> People can make anything they want. Atleast they should have an open and decentralised system. Forums can be that
<orbifx> But I won't be joining I don't think. I like things coming to my inbox, running my filters.
<orbifx> I proposed Mailman 3, but I don't think anyone paid attention.
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<zozozo> what's Mailman 3 ?
<Kakadu> It seems a server thing to host maillists....
<Kakadu> (I think it was propesed because Inria mail list web archive looks weird...)
<zozozo> ah, right
<zozozo> if the mailing list evolves, maybe they could fix the problem with DKIM signatures, :p
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<orbifx> zozozo: mailman 3 is the next version of mailman 2 (obviously :P) which is redesigned to allow different front-ends
<orbifx> mailman 2 is probably the most popular mailing list service right now
<orbifx> but has a really poor web interface
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<companion_cube> gah, this thread on adoption...
* companion_cube just hopes people won't move to slack or google+
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<Algebr`> For C code linked with OCaml, like stubs, the runtime time at that moment hasn't been initialized yet, correct?
<Algebr`> is there a way to check if the OCaml runtime has been inited yet?
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<orbifx> Algebr`: does it not depend on whether you are starting OCaml from C or vice versa?
<orbifx> I pressume you know for sure you are starting OCaml from C, and I don't know the answer to that.
<Algebr`> nevermind, I got my answer, lldb answers all
<pierpa> the story of the space pen is a urban legend
<pierpa> both USA and SSSR used pencils in their space program in the beginning
<pierpa> then a private USAn guy invented a pressurized pen for use in space
<pierpa> and both USA and SSSR used that pen in space
<pierpa> so, no difference between USA and SSSR
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<pierpa> very nice pens, btw, they write in any positions and on almost any kind of surfaces
* Kakadu detects cyrillic abbrevation
<pierpa> hmmm
<pierpa> hows CCCP in English? :)
<Kakadu> USSR
<pierpa> aha! ty
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<orbifx> pierpa: I know it was a legend, didn't bother. I heard a talk on it. There is merit in the pen, because apparently losing a broken lead tip could lead to short circuiting and inhalation
<pierpa> I use one, to write upside down when I'm laying somewhere :)
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<orbifx> :P
<orbifx> as it happens
<orbifx> laters folk
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