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<def`>
you cannot produce deadlock with the monadic interface
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<apostolis>
Hello, in haskell, if one calls a function f with the same inputs twice, it is only executed once. Is this also true for OCaml if there are no side effects?
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<def`>
no
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<ZirconiumX>
apostolis: it gets called twice
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<apostolis>
ZirconiumX : Noo!
<ZirconiumX>
Haskell has very different evaluation semantics to OCaml
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<ZirconiumX>
Haskell is lazy evaluated, OCaml is eager evaluated, apostolis
<lyxia>
even in Haskell it's not true that calling a function with the same inputs twice doesn't get it reexecuted.
<lyxia>
what's guaranteed is that the result is the same.
<apostolis>
Well , aren't there optimizations that add a let statement so that eager evaluation does not create that problem?
<lyxia>
you don't always want that though, and that optimization only works on subexpressions that are close together
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<ZirconiumX>
Also remember that computers are naturally eager machines
<ggole>
Hmm. Merlin got a type search feature, but it has some pretty rough corners.
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<apostolis>
It seems easy to perform the above optimization. Maybe I will do it myself. (I am working on the malfunction backend, ie flambda)
<xvilka>
seems that some Sys/Unix functions change the current directory value (even if I don't change it myself). Is this intended?
<companion_cube>
this is ocamllex, it defines how `token` behaves
<companion_cube>
(`token` is a function from the lexbuf to some sum type)
<orbifx>
k
<orbifx>
is there a noticable and obvious gain from using those, versus writing something in pure plain caml?
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<orbifx>
(given your experience with it)
<lyxia>
they are languages designed for parsing
<companion_cube>
orbifx: menhir is absolutely awesome for parsing anything that has a non trivial grammar (typically with recursion)
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<companion_cube>
ocamllex is also pretty cool for tokenizing when you want to remove whitespace, comments, etc.
<companion_cube>
writing these in pure OCaml is, imho, a PITA
<companion_cube>
so if you want to parse something like OCaml or json, i'd really recommend that (although in json most of the work is doing the lexing)
<orbifx>
lyxia: such systems have a curve where they are not worth it if the aim is simple
<orbifx>
companion_cube: thanks
<companion_cube>
sure, depends on whether you think you're going to write several parsers, or just one
<orbifx>
I'm thinking of writing an Org-Mode parser
<companion_cube>
the cost of re-learning is something to consider (e.g for me it's an annoyance with LaTeX)
<companion_cube>
sounds ambitious :D
<orbifx>
should be ok, will start with common and plain stuff, but it does have structures..
<orbifx>
Does ocamllex and menhir bring rigour into their declerations? (are the logical constrains etc?)
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<companion_cube>
menhir will tell you if your grammar is ambiguous
<_y>
companion_cube, LaTeX vs what ?
<companion_cube>
_y: just in general, when I have to use it I always have to relearn too much :(
<_y>
i was hoping you would give me an alternative to that nightmare :-(
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<companion_cube>
I don't think there exists any credible alternative
<companion_cube>
just the set of packages, support from publications, etc. nothing can hope to replace LaTeX I think
<Fardale>
I heard of pandoc but never look at it
<companion_cube>
(except maybe by compiling to LaTeX)
<_y>
yeah
<companion_cube>
as soon as you want to use non trivial LaTeX packages, I doubt pandoc can compete
<_y>
there is patholine but i guess no one uses it, and i am not sure it addresses the issues i really have with (la)tex
<steenuil>
I wonder if it's even possible to fix LaTeX while still maintaining compatibility with all the packages or if it's just defective by design
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<_y>
defective by design
<_y>
you have no hope of parsing tex without compiling it
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<_y>
thus you have no hope of doing anything to change latex
<_y>
(e.g. make the compiler parallel, or whatever)
<steenuil>
things like having to run the latex command thrice to obtain some outputs are baffling but I wouldn't even know where to start to fix it
<_y>
indeed
<_y>
the short answer is called latexmk
<_y>
but it doesn’t solve the fact that the compiler outputs bazillions of garbage
<steenuil>
like, there's this thing to write ocaml documentation in latex and output HTML called hevea that is used to build the ocaml manual
<_y>
which you cannot filter, because the conceptors did not follow the convention of stdout vs. stderr
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<_y>
and that’s too late to fix it now because packages print their own errors and, as a consequence of what precedes, do not know about stderr
<steenuil>
and it actually recompiles the output by itself a few times until it reaches a point where the previous output and the current one are the same
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<steenuil>
yup it's just a pile of faults you're never gonna get to the bottom of
<orbifx>
I think some markdown packages with embedable latex is the way forward for industrial-grade publications. Asciidoc, sphinx and some others look viable if one doesn't care about protocol too much companion_cube _y steenuil
<_y>
and you get stuck in that state because any tex guru will say you that everything is perfect and meant like that and that knuth’s tex compiler is the most beautiful code they have ever read in their lifes
<_y>
which may be true if your goal is to have your coffee machine compile tex
<orbifx>
companion_cube: thanks for the insight, will give them two a go, probably worth learning them and avoiding reinventing parsing and other logic
<_y>
orbifx, would you be able to write e.g. a PhD thesis with Markdown + embedded LaTeX ?
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<steenuil>
markdown is not very extensible, and if you're gonna compile to latex anyway you haven't really solved the issue...
<_y>
steenuil, we may turn (la)tex into the assembly language of typesetting, just as javascript is the assembly language of the www
<_y>
as we ocaml people surely consider it ;-)
<steenuil>
but then you're still gonna have to drop down to latex to fix issues and use more complex packages
<_y>
back to the topic, do i understand correctly that angstrom is meant to parse binary files ?
<orbifx>
_y: can't say if I could for certain. Latex wasn't too much of an issue for me, although I didn't like the size of the dependencies.
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<steenuil>
isn't it supposed to be more general purpose than that?
<steenuil>
angstrom I mean
<companion_cube>
orbifx: markdown with embedded latex? hmm
<companion_cube>
you'd need a good way to call macros directly in markdown for that…
<orbifx>
I can't recall confidently which converter supported that, pandoc was probably the one
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<_y>
maybe some day, someone really charismatic (for example someone with a lot of money ;-) will say “let’s move to X” and launch a trend of writing X bindings for al major LaTeX packages
<steenuil>
maybe somebody someday will make it their mission to rid the world of latex
<_y>
we just need a cool name for X
<steenuil>
and there will be much rejoicing
<_y>
let’s call it CaoutChouC
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<steenuil>
oh so that's how you spell that
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