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<beneroth> link for the next time some noob complains about the simplicity of lists:
<Regenaxer> Cool beneroth! As I expected :)
<beneroth> :)
<miskatonic> hash tables suck big times when compared to balanced binary trees
<beneroth> I'm still wondering why they even became a thing (for general data, not just for specialised cases like fulltext indexing). I grow up with C++ map<> (implemented as Red Black Tree), that the other languages didn't had map but "Dictionary" was a great confusion to me :)
<beneroth> aaah
<beneroth> "While the C++ standard doesn't specifically say "thou shalt use a red-black tree to implement std::map", try using anything else. An AVL tree won't work; it's insertion costs don't meet the standard. A hash won't work; a hash is unordered and hence doesn't meet the standard. The standard pretty much says "thou shalt use a red-black tree to implement std::map" without saying so explicitly"
* beneroth googling for a argumentative reasoning on the software design choice
<beneroth> lol
<beneroth> from that answer I deduce the real reason is "Hash tables are easier to implement than trees." amended with a snarky "But still gives us the feeling of complexity and superiority, I mean, we cannot be seen doing just a simple linked list, can we?"
<beneroth> Simpler is Better.
<Regenaxer> Yeah. PicoLisp uses the even-simpler plain binary trees
<Regenaxer> But the reason for this decision is in fact space
<Regenaxer> (needs only two cells per node)
<beneroth> the argument against trees seems to be the time used to rebalance in during inserts and deletions
<beneroth> and we use plain lists usually where in other stacks you would already use a hash table, I believe (e.g. storing HTTP arguments in memory)
<Regenaxer> Probably
<Regenaxer> PicoLisp idx trees are a bit minimalistic, needs a little more attention by the programmer
<Regenaxer> red-black would be better, but needs more space
<beneroth> <Regenaxer> PicoLisp idx trees are a bit minimalistic, needs a little more attention by the programmer
<beneroth> <Regenaxer> PicoLisp idx trees are a bit minimalistic, needs a little more attention by the programmer
<Regenaxer> (I believe r/b trees are a special case of b~trees, no?)
<beneroth> in what way, beside the unhandy callign syntax ?
<beneroth> Regenaxer, yeah, r/b is storing a bit marker on every node for faster/easier future rebalance
<Regenaxer> The calling syntax is good, I think. It is that you must take care not to produce a denegerated tree
<beneroth> tell me more, I'm not sure if I'm aware
<beneroth> can be later, if you don't have time now.
<beneroth> I should do some plio :D
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<Regenaxer> If you insert *sorted* data with 'idx', it degenerates to a linear list
<Regenaxer> So you should use 'balance' then
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<beneroth> I guess you should use 'balance anyway after finishing insertion phase (when applicable)
* beneroth was aware
<Regenaxer> No, it is never balanced after insertion
<beneroth> T
<Regenaxer> 'balance' *does* build the tree
<beneroth> (idx 'var 'any) is just inserting at first possible leaf I would assume?
<Regenaxer> yes, (idx 'var 'any T)
<beneroth> so inserts/delets are not completely ruining a tree (when it was once balanced before), but does unbalance it until it might be completely "bad" for querying
<beneroth> right?
<beneroth> (sorted insert results in only one "branch" growing, therefore being the worst case)
<Regenaxer> This happens only if you do a sorted insert or delete
<Regenaxer> if it is just a bit unsorted, the results are sprprisingly fine
<beneroth> yeah, so random (considering sort order) inserts/deletes is ok :)
<beneroth> ok
<Regenaxer> I think most theorists are too paranoid about that
<beneroth> good, my believes are checked and confirmed :)
<beneroth> T
<Regenaxer> :)
<Regenaxer> If neded, 'balance' produces a perfect tree though
<Regenaxer> (only once as you noted)
<beneroth> in light of "Picolispizität" (word creation by Morris), I would call this behaviour of (idx) to be in favour of programmers control. (idx) is not self-balancing, meaning programmer can decide WHEN the tree gets balanced, instead of paying overhead cost on every operation
<Regenaxer> Exactly!
<beneroth> as in most practical cases, you would probably first build the tree and then query it, both operations mixed don't happen so often I would say (or when, then in DB context as you need to store this information, and the DB B-Trees are self-balanced)
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<beneroth> so high value in Picolispicity :D
<beneroth> ha
<Regenaxer> Mixing build and query also happens often
<Regenaxer> eg in namespaces
<beneroth> Picolispicity, that should be the english word for Picolispizität. yes?
<beneroth> Regenaxer, hm T
<beneroth> but the internal trees are self-balanced, no?
<Regenaxer> no
<beneroth> ok, so completely unbalanced usually, just the split into long-symbol-name and short-symbol-name trees (and local trees for every namespace and transient scope) ?
<Regenaxer> They assume that symbols are not created in sorted name-order
<Regenaxer> yes
<beneroth> hm, good point, my habit of ordering function definition in source code by name is bad :D
<Regenaxer> In fact not
<Regenaxer> it is not alphabetical
<Regenaxer> but the way symbol names map to numbers
<beneroth> ah
<Regenaxer> So it is very hard to make a sorted build
<beneroth> string to binary blob, interpreted as number -> number is the key
<Regenaxer> yes
<beneroth> so... some people could argue it is a hash tree indeed!
<beneroth> :D
<beneroth> just no hash collisions :D
<beneroth> (so no hash, just transcoding)
<Regenaxer> hmm, but no hashing is needed
<Regenaxer> the names are there already
<beneroth> aye T
<beneroth> and hash is shortening, we do no shortening
<Regenaxer> the order is kind of backwarys
<Regenaxer> right
<Regenaxer> no collisions
<beneroth> thanks for this great informative discussion :)
<Regenaxer> :)
<beneroth> good to validate my assumptions
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<beneroth> periodic re-validation is the core of science
<Regenaxer> true
<beneroth> Picolispm, the ideology of increasing the picolispicity of things
<beneroth> Picolispism ?
<Regenaxer> Sounds cool!
<beneroth> we are a lovely cult, full of KISSes
<beneroth> a bit smug and snarky at times, though
<Regenaxer> haha, yes :)
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<beneroth> Regenaxer, plio question, select generato clauses: I assume I can mix using arguments (which can be a value or range, as in db/3) and combined indexes (multiple index used in one single generator clause) ? therefore modelling OR conditions on indexed properties ?
* beneroth will try ou
* beneroth will try out
<Regenaxer> yes, there are a lot of combinations possible
<beneroth> everytime I look at plio, I think I should use it more!
<beneroth> so powerful
<beneroth> thanks :)
<Regenaxer> :)
<Regenaxer> I hope the syntax of select/3 is fully covered in select.html
<Regenaxer> doc/select.html
<beneroth> for a specific application, I made now a kind of "Query editor", the user can create conditions based on properties of an entity. I try not to generate pilog code from those editor output.
<beneroth> I have no hint that it isn't :)
<Regenaxer> "Query editor": Great!
<beneroth> you had something in your applications? I don't know your stuff good enough...
<beneroth> at the moment I just do this for this specific application. but I hope to generalize this later.
<Regenaxer> I once had, yes, a simple chart of expressions
<beneroth> ok
<beneroth> in may extension of pilDB I store more metadata about schema, so this can be built upon for knowing which kind of query conditions are even meaningful.
<beneroth> but it also complicates more things, as my "mashina entities" are versioned, a query might have to run over multiple picolisp entities :)
<Regenaxer> true
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<beneroth> Regenaxer, Does the order of filter clauses matter? Are the filter clauses checked in order, or in quasi-parallel ?
<Regenaxer> They are checked strictly in orderr
<Regenaxer> So it may matter
<beneroth> thanks
<Regenaxer> Train from Hamburg back home. Unstable connections
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<beneroth> ok. save and good travels!
<Regenaxer> Thanks! :)
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<Regenaxer> No worries! Deutsche Bahn as always: 20 minutes late before it even started, they somehow lost waggon number 6, but we are rolling :D
<beneroth> lol, really as usual
<beneroth> your reserved sit did not happen to be in waggon 6 ?
<beneroth> :D
<beneroth> (happened to me)
<beneroth> (and as I was modern, using their often advertised app, they were not even able to give me compensation for the lost sit...)
<beneroth> (Köln to Frankfurt I think)
<Regenaxer> :(
<Regenaxer> No problem with reservation fortunately
<Regenaxer> (we never resserve, makes no sense)
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<beneroth> I think it was required for the ICEs
<Regenaxer> IIRC it was never required
<beneroth> Didn't make sense always, but when travelling 8 hours or so in one go, reservations can make it quite more comfortable
<beneroth> Maybe only when booked via SBB...
<beneroth> I'm unsure now.
<Regenaxer> ah, yes, possible
<beneroth> I guess the time of day also makes a big difference in how crowded it is :)
<Regenaxer> true, but in practice one always finds a free seat
<beneroth> most times, not always
<Regenaxer> T
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<beneroth> Regenaxer, how to limit number of results with a pilog query? Running (query) in a pipe and cancel it ?
<Regenaxer> I use catch/throw
<beneroth> or (prove) ? I fail to use (prove) with select/
<beneroth> ah
<beneroth> in the function
<beneroth> nice
<Regenaxer> You mean in the 'pilog' function, right?
<beneroth> aye
<beneroth> yeah better than pipe lol
<beneroth> catch/throw is the right thing
<Regenaxer> yeah
<Regenaxer> non-local exit :)
<beneroth> ah, (prove (goal select-query...)) works :)
<beneroth> so could also repeatedly call (prove) instead of catch/throw, aye?
<Regenaxer> A simple example is in app/sales.l
<beneroth> I see
<beneroth> nice use of (at) :)
<Regenaxer> catch / pilog/ throw
<beneroth> T
<Regenaxer> No need to call 'prove' usually
<Regenaxer> Sorry, I have very bad connection
<beneroth> yeah I think catch/throw is nicer code, instead of calling (prove) in a loop
<Regenaxer> I type blind up to 2 words until I get an echo
<beneroth> no problem
<beneroth> oh I'm sorry!
<beneroth> ok one last comment: (prove) is probably useful for cases when you don't know how many results (possibly not all) you want. agreed?
<beneroth> special case. but imaginable, e.g. in a game logic or so
<Regenaxer> haha, I typed "up to 20 words" :)
<beneroth> wow
<beneroth> good you are not used to Swiss mobile network, else Germany looks really bad >.<
<beneroth> xD
<Regenaxer> well, 'prove' is the most general
<Regenaxer> 'pilog' is just a primitive frontend
<Regenaxer> like 'solve'
<beneroth> naturally
<beneroth> so pilog is fronted of solve, which is frontend of prove
<Regenaxer> yeah, some reagions are alost dead in terms of network connection
<Regenaxer> not quite
<Regenaxer> plog call a Prg, solve makes a list
<beneroth> T
<beneroth> iter vs. collect
<beneroth> you are right
<beneroth> essential difference
<Regenaxer> Simple 3-liners both :)
<beneroth> (prove) smells like a ingredient for a curry
<beneroth> ok, I need to go. I got the basics of pilog generation working \o/ now what remains is mostly grunt work, not so hard anymore.
<beneroth> thanks for your help
<beneroth> good travel!
<beneroth> afk
<Regenaxer> yes, or other control structures. GUI chrts call 'prove' whenever they need a new line
<Regenaxer> thanks!
<beneroth> aye, as I said, (prove) is useful for cases when you don't know how many results (possibly not all) you want :D
<beneroth> I think I grokked it. THANKS <3
<Regenaxer> 👍 :)
<beneroth> my client here cannot render that :)
<Regenaxer> oh
<Regenaxer> No UTF-3
<Regenaxer> UTF-8 ;)
<beneroth> yeah this is my outdated IRC client
<beneroth> on the notebook I have a better one, we should check special chars there.
<beneroth> really afk now. bye bye, greetings to family :)
<Regenaxer> bye, and thanks!!
<beneroth> thanks to you!!
<Regenaxer> To be fair, I must say that the train caught up. Now we are in Fulda and in time :)
<Regenaxer> Happens not often wit DB
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