10:43 <anddam> tankf33der: sure, sounds like a plan

10:44 <anddam> can you wait many months?

10:44 <tankf33der> sure

10:44 <tankf33der> no hurry

10:44 <tankf33der> tasks are easy, what you need

10:45 <anddam> for starters I need to install picolisp on my laptop as well

10:45 <anddam> and the github repo does not have tags, so I won't be using it

10:46 <beneroth> hi anddam, welcome :)

10:46 <beneroth> hi tankf33der o/

10:46 <anddam> does picolisp use VCS at all? I only see the latest and the rolling tarballs mentioned on download

10:47 <anddam> download page*

10:47 <tankf33der> anddam: wat? you dont need tags.

10:47 <tankf33der> use github repo :)

10:47 <tankf33der> anddam: do you need workflow?

10:47 <tankf33der> i can create for you my steps

10:48 <anddam> workflow for?

10:49 <beneroth> anddam, picolisp is mostly finished software. it is actively developed - but this is mainly porting to new CPU architectures/systems, and incremental small improvements. the core is in productive use and battle tested for decades.

10:50 <tankf33der> anddam: to use github and installation and daily-weekly updates

10:50 <beneroth> we are not a large community and we don't need to have a huge distributed dev team. patches/changes are discussed here in IRC or on the mailing list, then merged into the official distribution by Regenaxer

10:51 <beneroth> the github is a maintained live-mirror of the current code

10:51 <anddam> beneroth: that sounds like a nice feature

10:52 <beneroth> but we largely don't develop via github... we used google codes before, but as it shut down we went back to reliable self-hosting instead of getting dependent on third-party services

10:52 <anddam> tankf33der: no thanks, I already read (and followed) the instructions

10:52 <tankf33der> i defenitly should create it and post to ML. Lets make some noise.

10:53 <anddam> I am curious about the 57 programmer exercises, though

10:53 <beneroth> tankf33der, ?

10:53 <tankf33der> my install and update steps

10:54 <beneroth> anddam, some philosophy, if you like: https://picolisp.com/tractatus/

10:54 <beneroth> tankf33der, good idea!

11:00 <anddam> from INSTALL I get that 32b version should build straight out of the box (of the tarball) while 64b requires bootstrapping

11:01 <beneroth> take 64b

11:01 <beneroth> that is the current main edition, so to say

11:03 <anddam> yes,but it needs to be bootstrapped

11:03 <beneroth> install picolisp from distro before, or just have java installed

11:03 <beneroth> or download the appropriate .s files (see INSTALL)

11:03 <anddam> oh even the outdated debian package would have been enough

11:03 <beneroth> yes

11:04 <anddam> beneroth: that's what I am following, but I was curious about the third approach, turns out I did not have libc6 development package for i386

11:09 <Regenaxer> yeah, that's the tedios part, needing to install g++-multilib and libc6-dev-i386 just to build the first time

11:09 <Regenaxer> The best is to download the .s files

11:10 <beneroth> hi Regenaxer

11:17 <Regenaxer> Hi beneroth!

15:18 <tankf33der> https://git.envs.net/mpech/tankf33der/src/branch/master/install-picolisp.md

15:18 <tankf33der> i've created what i wanted.

15:22 <beneroth> tankf33der, thanks! should be in the wiki (or at least a link) I think!

15:22 <tankf33der> i will post to ML.

15:31 <Regenaxer> thanks tankf33der!

15:49 <Regenaxer> I give up lldb. People in #lldb say it cannot handle llvm-ir. Sounds like a joke!

15:49 <beneroth> wtf is lldb?

15:49 <Regenaxer> llvm debugger :)

15:50 <beneroth> which cannot handle llvm parts?

15:50 <beneroth> nice

15:50 <Regenaxer> It is just a slightly improved gdb

15:50 <beneroth> sounds like not-invented-here-syndrome

15:50 <Regenaxer> yes, it cannot debug llvm's native code

15:50 <Regenaxer> poor

15:51 <beneroth> rofl

15:51 <Regenaxer> :)

15:51 <beneroth> ridi kulos!

15:51 <Regenaxer> yep

15:52 <Regenaxer> As far as I understand, they just improved the command set, made it more orthogonal, but what Ii want is to debug llvm code, the "IR"

15:52 <Regenaxer> intermediate representation

15:52 <Regenaxer> ie the virtual assembly code of the llvm

15:53 <beneroth> of course

15:53 <beneroth> gdb cannot do it? :P

15:53 <beneroth> omg

15:53 <beneroth> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/29062648/how-to-debug-llvm-code-using-lldb

15:53 <Regenaxer> gdb can do it

15:54 <Regenaxer> ah

15:54 <Regenaxer> no, this is not helpful

15:54 <beneroth> it isn't >.<

15:54 <Regenaxer> Why have lldb then?

15:55 <beneroth> people are afraid of (pseudo-) asm, they want to debug in their lang?

15:55 <beneroth> and how can it even have the capability to decompile into those lang without the capability to inspect the llvm bytecode?

15:55 <Regenaxer> indeed

15:57 <beneroth> I assume you already went through: https://llvm.org/docs/SourceLevelDebugging.html#philosophy-behind-llvm-debugging-information

15:57 <Regenaxer> yes, thats also what gdb can do

15:58 <Regenaxer> the frontend lang, C or C++

15:58 <beneroth> so back to the good ol' tools :)

15:58 <Regenaxer> I *could* support PilSrc, but that's a lot of work

15:58 <Regenaxer> Need to insert debug info into the generated code

15:59 <beneroth> ouch

16:00 <Regenaxer> But I want to debug on the VM level here

16:00 <Regenaxer> Debugging on higher levels is not good in such a debugger anyway, it cannot handle Lisp level data

16:00 <beneroth> lol.. LLVM is not even an abbreviation anymore? They literally dropped naming the project "Low Level Virtual Machine" because todays mainstream people don't know the term "Virtual Machine" in compiler context anymore and mix it up with hardware/OS emulation??? xD

16:01 <Regenaxer> So it is easier to insert (print Var) into the code ;)

16:01 <Regenaxer> right!

16:01 <beneroth> good old stupid way. it ain't stupid if it works.

16:01 <Regenaxer> And "low level" is not true either

16:01 <beneroth> I thought so xD

16:01 <Regenaxer> it is quite high, with all those types and abstractions

16:02 <beneroth> so.. basically LLVM is the newest iteration of the java idea (one virtual machine to rule them all)

16:02 <Regenaxer> It is hard to program in PilSrc

16:02 <Regenaxer> harder than in PilAsm

16:02 <Regenaxer> Sorry, have a telcon now

16:02 <beneroth> :(

16:02 <Regenaxer> afp

16:02 <beneroth> np, cu

21:03 <beneroth> [OT] I trust none of makes use of WebCrypto, but maybe you collect Mozilla failures: https://blog.intothesymmetry.com/2020/01/the-curious-case-of-webcrypto-diffie.html

21:03 <beneroth> (Crypto API within Browser for JS - encryption via JS is conceptual nonsense, but people love to implement things)