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<DKordic>
I just saw on _Wikipedia_ that HTML is neither XML, which is _also_ W3C Recomendation, nor _SGML_ _as HTML Specification claims_!! Human stupidity is infinite.
<DKordic>
beneroth: ^
<Regenaxer>
very wise!
<alexshendi>
I think XHTML may parse as valib XML, but no one uses it
<alexshendi>
*valid
<DKordic>
Yeah... ""DOM"" /is the new/ AST.
<DKordic>
XML is like... the new Roman Numerals.
<DKordic>
""W3c"" is a ""Registered Cargo Cult"".
<Regenaxer>
Well, @lib/xhtml.l ... kind of ... uses it. Probably not 100% pure
<DKordic>
IMHO ""xhtml.l"" gives meaning to ""XHTML"". You could market it as ""Formal Semantics"".
<beneroth>
DKordic, yeah I have known for a long time. xhtml is xml, but HTML is something of its own kind
<beneroth>
w3c is powerless these days, w3c is the puppet of Google
<beneroth>
XML is dying. it lives in Enterprise, but gets quickly replaced by Rest and JSON Apis
<beneroth>
XML was theory taken to far, adapted to be transported via mail, pigeons, whatever - complex theoretical building, an overcomplicated solution in search of a problem
<beneroth>
<DKordic> Yeah... ""DOM"" /is the new/ AST
<beneroth>
wise insight
<DKordic>
""Web Development"" is indeed ""IT equivalent of working at McDonalds""!
<beneroth>
I'm not sure if this analogy truly covers everything
<beneroth>
a huge part is that way.. but
<beneroth>
working at McDonalds: 1 standard way for everything
<beneroth>
web: nobody conforms to anything, except google chrome HTML/CSS/JS understanding
<DKordic>
Exactly.
<beneroth>
maybe better compare it with unregulated chaotic streetfood market? some people offering their services are on same level as the global elite, but probably are not even themselves aware of it? and some (many?) deliver their service in a way which will give you serious stomach pains?
<beneroth>
though IT world is certainly the worst, much worse than the worst markets :P
<beneroth>
(yes some might cause pandemics - but IT managed to shutdown British more effectively (though not so long) with the NSA exploits against Windows XP...)
<beneroth>
(and much of the current secondary effects could have been prevented/significantly eased by proper IT.. e.g. all the breakdowns in the benefit registration handling, or the test result handling which still happens to be largely analog via fax here in CH)
<DKordic>
""Greatest success of Microsoft was to lower people's expectations.""
<beneroth>
and then upsell them
<beneroth>
that is why FOSS was/is such a danger for them - why pay, if you get better quality for low cost
<beneroth>
with cloud and SaaS this is bound to ownership of the server infrastructure
<beneroth>
essentially their business models are about working around the quality-driving force of the free market :)
<DKordic>
IMHO ""source code"" is... User Land!! ""free"" and ""open"" are Loaded Questions.
<beneroth>
you are right - but that requires a capable user! (similar to how democracy requires an well informed and reasonable citizen)
<beneroth>
and *newsflash* most people are just not interested in that (both)
<beneroth>
they tasted the illusionary comfort of mobile apps, and mobile phones without the burden of freedom and responsibility
<DKordic>
IMHO it can be cured with 5 Ki B of Forth ;) .
<DKordic>
""User"" is an Abomination.
<beneroth>
when the illusion of freedom and choice falls apart, all are surprised but powerless
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<DKordic>
Welcome Blukunfando.
<Blukunfando>
Thanks, DKordic.
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<DKordic>
sup?
<Blukunfando>
Not much. I’m here out of curiosity.
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<DKordic>
Excellent. I would be glad to answer (as much as I can) any questions You have.
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<beneroth>
Hi Blukunfando
<beneroth>
curiosity is good :-)
<DKordic>
Blukunfando: What do You think about Forth?
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<Blukunfando>
DKordic, I think it’s interesting, but I’ve only played a little with it, following GForth’s documentation. I don’t know all that much about programming yet.
<beneroth>
What do you know about programming, Blukunfando ?
<beneroth>
It is actually not bad to come to us early, because the main problems with learning picolisp is about getting rid of bad habits/assumptions/over-complicated thinking coming from other programming languages :-)
* beneroth
went through that
<Blukunfando>
beneroth, I began to learn a few languages on different occasions, years apart from one another, never doing anything serious. A few years ago, I stumbled upon Paul Graham’s texts, which convinced me to try to learn Lisp. I don’t remember where I recently saw PicoLisp mentioned; probably in some search trying to find out how far-fetched it would be to bring Lisp machines back, or at least a free Lisp OS.
<Blukunfando>
Heh.
<beneroth>
hehe, yeah for me it was also a combination of Paul Graham essays and a nagging programmer friend who eventually convinced me to look into lisp
<beneroth>
I was into C/C++ before that, I looked at Common Lisp and heard about "library, compiler & platform problems" and thought: nah, thanks, had enough of that with C++
<beneroth>
so I looked at other lisps and ended up here :)
<beneroth>
now I do commercial projects using picolisps for some years, the promises of lisp turned out valid for me
<beneroth>
Blukunfando, what do you want to do with programming?
<beneroth>
DKordic, funny, I have the same paper already saved, but apparently another version
<DKordic>
I am also interested in Forth Systems, or however we might call them. I couldn't care less about Symbolics. Ashes to ashes.
<DKordic>
I also have lispos.pdf .
<beneroth>
aye, that one
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<Blukunfando>
beneroth, for now, I was trying to learn enough Elisp and Scheme to one day help the Guile Emacs project. It’d also be nice to help free software not be smothered by big corporations, since they seem to be inexorably taking over every major project, like the Linux kernel.
<Blukunfando>
DKordic, thanks ☺
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<bitmapper>
DKordic: symbolics isn't dead
<DKordic>
Greetings bitmapper. Rise and Fall of Roman Empire^W^W^WSymbolics?
<bitmapper>
it's moreso that the stuff they work on isn't public
<DKordic>
I had no idea.
<bitmapper>
there's a version of genera with updated lisp and quicklisp support for x86_64 and arm64
<bitmapper>
(which is all that is publicly known due to bug reports)
<DKordic>
Thank You bitmapper.
* DKordic
sings ""Royal Deluxe"": ""I'm gonna do my thing""
<beneroth>
Blukunfando, I see. Have fun and success :D
<beneroth>
Ahoy bitmapper
<tankf33der>
started bigtest 10B loop run on pil21, will notify asap.
<bitmapper>
by the way, how complete is pil21?
<Regenaxer>
Perhaps 60%
<Regenaxer>
I hope it self-bootstraps within this month
<beneroth>
MacOS offers all required POSIX capabilities, right? Only their binary format was the obstacle previously, right?
<beneroth>
(I know MacOS is a real unix, but it's tooling is usually rather outdated compared to Linux)
* beneroth
would have some use case for writing a MacOS database application
<tankf33der>
i already know the title for announce on reddit