<tankf33der>
This is correct list of opt issues in llvm. We are not alone.
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<Regenaxer>
Hi tankf33der
<Regenaxer>
all of them opt-related?
<tankf33der>
Yeap
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, I do (eval (make (link 'case 'Value) (chain *List))) - better way? I couldn't make it work with apply.
<clacke>
Hi picos, found my way back to Matrix and IRC
<beneroth>
( put the cases into a list because in another function/run I check if the case list contains certain values
<beneroth>
clacke, heeeeeeyy
<beneroth>
clacke, you were missed!
<Regenaxer>
Hi beneroth, clacke!
<Regenaxer>
beneroth, you absolutely need 'case'?
<clacke>
i have decided that they contribute to my wellbeing and aww you just proved my point
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, yep, case is what I need here, I'm certain.
<Regenaxer>
why not (run (cdr (assoc ... f
<beneroth>
yeah that kinda would be same thing :D
<beneroth>
clacke, how did aww do that?
<clacke>
Still haven't written a line of PiL and I don't even work in Racket anymore, but I just like you people
<Regenaxer>
For 'case' (or any fexpr) you could also use 'macro'
<clacke>
"aww" as in "oh shucks"
<Regenaxer>
more readable
<beneroth>
clacke, yeah our communities self-selection filter is awesome
<clacke>
first message I get on IRC is I was missed
<Regenaxer>
I quit IRC in matrix again
<beneroth>
yeah I missed chatting with you
<Regenaxer>
too unreliable
<beneroth>
and Regenaxer could have needed an matrix expert :P
<Regenaxer>
yes:)
<clacke>
my plans to get back on parentheses is to learn Clojure, some people with purses in this town use it
<Regenaxer>
well, matrix works fine for me
<beneroth>
clacke, you hipster ;-)
<clacke>
yeah, I came back because phones are now more powerful and Elements runs with no issues
<beneroth>
food comes first. no food, no time for hobbys, no time for pil.
<clacke>
and also because I decided that IRC "stole" time that actually.was then just "stolen" by fedi when I gave up "IRC"
<beneroth>
so you say, the language requires certain computational power to become useful, to do something others language could achieve with less power? :P
<beneroth>
doesn't sound like something which will be around big in 30 years when we all have to save power
<clacke>
and to be fair the only thing that "steals" time is the need for productive employment
<clacke>
time in #picolisp is a life quality investment
* beneroth
thinks so too
<Regenaxer>
:)
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, I'm certain that case is correct here, and that macro is not fitting. it is about processing of imported columns, I put the cases into a list because in a separate run I check if all columns are in that list
<clacke>
yes, the layers of software in our phones probably make us waste 10x as much energy as we need to, in the case of IRC over Matrix probably 100x
<Regenaxer>
beneroth, so a global assoc list might be better, no?
<beneroth>
IRC is many decades old. works very good, especially if now TLS is used properly. only thing missing is e2e-encryption, but then again that is only that useful for a open community chat.
<clacke>
but the amount of my executive ability wasted is lower than running a proper bouncer and IRC in a terminal on my phone
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, I treat it like a global assoc list
<clacke>
so, sorry global climate, you're paying for my attention span
<Regenaxer>
In any case, (case X (a (foo)) (b (bar))) is equivalent to (run (cdr (assoc X '((a (foo)) (b (bar))))))
* beneroth
will think of you when he dies in a famine at the young age of 80 or so
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, yep, that I could do
<beneroth>
how is it better than my ugly eval? it's not really shorted to read :P
<clacke>
at least the pandemic helped me not to travel across the globe
<beneroth>
clacke, how did the pandemic go for you? big troubles or manageable?
<clacke>
for me personally the pandemic is brilliant and improved my work life balance
<Regenaxer>
haha, for me too
<clacke>
long term after it will be gone too, company policy is now better than what I negociated hard for in 2019
<clacke>
regenaxer did I ever mention that I quoted you in a podcast episode?
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, speed seems good of this case. I have some performance issues, but they come from an iteration of attempting to finding certain DB records, each matching attempt trying a less specific approach until it's sure it doesn't even find something similar. so not much to optimize simply, it's essential performance need I'd guess.
<beneroth>
clacke is doing podcasts? something I would want listen to while cycling?
<Regenaxer>
beneroth, agreed
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, thanks for the review
<Regenaxer>
:)
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, any comments on how (run (cdr (assoc ...))) might be better over (eval (make (link 'case ...))) ? the eval is not elegant, but I find the code easier to read, easier to grasp what is happening here when I forgot about it and review it in 10 years...
<beneroth>
(not that it still will be in use then, but anyways)
<Regenaxer>
speed should be the same
<clacke>
"Who defines whether you are successful, or whether your project is successful, and does it matter?"
<clacke>
it's based on regenaxer's response to Nim guy four years ago
<beneroth>
clacke, that is the essence of the problem. Life is a sandbox MMORPG, but people have to define their goals themselves from available options. most lack the imagination to even see the options available, and many are too lazy to even bother.
<Regenaxer>
two threads at the same time :)
<beneroth>
yeah
<beneroth>
multithreading
<clacke>
that's IRC
<beneroth>
even using shared memory here in IRC :P
<beneroth>
(macro (case Col . @Cases)) seems to work as I desired
<clacke>
one thing the pandemic made more complicated is the kid having school at home, that eats some potential hobby time and mental clarity
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, certainly more elegant than assembling the eval
<Regenaxer>
yeah
<beneroth>
thanks!
<Regenaxer>
np
* beneroth
closes that discussion
<Regenaxer>
the macro takes care of the same assembling
<beneroth>
T
<clacke>
re: life MMORPG potential goals, a friend noticed that many programmers shift career 100% to bakers, railway workers etc
<clacke>
seemingly more than other professions
* beneroth
knows why
<clacke>
lots of potential for bias in this measurement of course
<beneroth>
T
<beneroth>
well maybe check nurses
<clacke>
programmers use my social media channels more, I expect, so more visible
<beneroth>
especially after a year pandemic and getting nothing for it than handclaps and many lasting issues..
<clacke>
thing is, programmers can easily change and easily change bacl
* beneroth
isn't using social media channels despite IRC and 3-4 small messenger groups.
<clacke>
and probably have qualifications that work for other fields
<clacke>
picolispers are not typical
<beneroth>
not sure if that is generalizable, but yeah I would agree that good programmers are good in learning quickly the job of others (when they do requirement analysis themselves), which also makes switching professions easier
<clacke>
my manager at my last office in Sweden took leave, started youtubing, never came back :-D
<beneroth>
haha, T, picolispers are not typical, not even for any sub-set of programmers
<beneroth>
else we would have no pandemic and not everything hackable, if I may be that smug
<beneroth>
youtubers are TV stars. youtube just made it a lot easier to become one. but also a lot easier to lose the job again, or never become viable.
<clacke>
sure, he was lucky
<beneroth>
luck favours the ones who can recognize it.
<beneroth>
and that needs hard work.
<clacke>
yes
<clacke>
luck is hard word and preparation meets opportunity
<clacke>
hard work*
<clacke>
same friend asked his previous manager's manager "do you miss being a programmer"
<clacke>
"no, too much pressure"
* beneroth
nods
<clacke>
this is a person managing ten managers managing 100 people saying this
* beneroth
often observes a lack of pressure on managers do care about their job, which results in extra pressure on workers below them, programmers among them
<beneroth>
(unhealthy companies. but they're more likely to hire beneroth to help them)
<clacke>
you work mostly for unhealthy companies? =)
<beneroth>
I hope :P
<beneroth>
if what I see is a good representation of company cultures in general, then we're doomed
<clacke>
Same person same post on Twitter 0 responses
<clacke>
Do people leave Twitter but not fedi when they leave tech?
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<aw->
i'd rather discuss leaving other programming languages
<aw->
i can't even imagine "leaving tech", I guess that's easy for people who don't really love it or who were only in it for the money
<aw->
i think the best way to cope with being "fed up" with tech is to just learn something new and completely different in tech. The field is so vast, there's always something different to learn.
<Regenaxer>
True
<aw->
clacke: btw i have no idea what is fedi haha
<Regenaxer>
Fediverse
<Regenaxer>
Mastodon, Diaspora, Pixelfed
<aw->
it also helps to stop "working" in tech and start "creating" tech. Creating is always fun, much more than doing useless work for other people.
<aw->
Regenaxer: thanks
<Regenaxer>
:)
<Regenaxer>
I have an account in these three
<Regenaxer>
but use only Mastodon
<Regenaxer>
Matrix is not exactly part of the Fediverse, though it is a federated protocol
<Regenaxer>
I'm @abu:7fach.de btw
<aw->
i don't use anything other than IRC, sorry ;)
<Regenaxer>
all right
<aw->
well, email of course
<Regenaxer>
just don't use WhatsApp etc
<beneroth>
re
<beneroth>
aw-, I see this same as you
<clacke>
Whether Diaspora is in the Fediverse or not is a matter of contention, it's not using ActivityPub and wasn't using OStatus when the fediverse ran on that
<clacke>
but I'm on Friendica, which speaks all of OStatus, ActivityPub and Diaspora
<Regenaxer>
I see
<clacke>
I definitely dream of creating tech instead of working on it
<clacke>
in the meantime I'm earning money toward this goal
<Regenaxer>
good :)
<clacke>
2018 was my dream year, getting paid for working on free software on my own terms
<clacke>
unfortunately funding ran out
<clacke>
so now I'm working in the bank, doing internal apps supporting infra
<Regenaxer>
sounds also interesting
<clacke>
I'm earning more money than I ever did, but somehow our family created the expenses to go with it
<clacke>
it's alright, I'm learning things and meeting good people
<clacke>
but it's not what I'd pick if money were not a factor
<clacke>
but as beneroth said about this channel being self-selecting I think companies hiring for lisps are self-selecting, so that's why learning the lisp they use is on my path to the future
<clacke>
as for leaving tech I never chose tech, it chose me
<clacke>
I'm doing it because I cannot not do it
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<clacke>
so yeah like aw- says, gotta find my place in tech
<clacke>
I'm getting gradually less repulsed by the idea of being a manager
<clacke>
mostly because I've had enough managers that lowered my expectations on how good I'd need to be at it
<clacke>
Is anyone listening to Eric Normand's LispCast?
<beneroth>
good managers are even more rare and more needed than good programmers
<clacke>
Yeah, so I'm starting to feel I could make a genuine contribution
<beneroth>
but the incentives for it are even more broken than for programmers
<beneroth>
good
<Regenaxer>
Never heard of Eric Normand
<beneroth>
same
<beneroth>
does he talk about LISP versus only Common Lisp?
<Regenaxer>
I suspect only CL
<beneroth>
I don't think I like common lisp podcasts, too narrow.
<beneroth>
but its more about practical and management stuff, less pure language theory. more about systems than individual languages.
<Regenaxer>
ok
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, one of my sources to learn about mainstream (or fashionable) tech stacks
<clacke>
LispCast currently is mostly him reading general CS papers from the 60s and 70s adding lots of his own context and comments
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, though the conclusion is often the same.. overhyped things, good for some niches but not as general useful as they are sold as
<clacke>
he is a very slow and thoughtful speaker, which fits me perfectly
<beneroth>
oh that sounds meaningful
<Regenaxer>
yeah
<Regenaxer>
maybe interesting
<beneroth>
does he read dijkstra? I love dijkstra, he was one smug clever non-bullshitter.
<clacke>
his current streak is the papers that go with the acceptance speeches of Turing Award winners
<beneroth>
clacke, read "The Mythical Man Month" from Fred Brooks. it's the book about software project management.
<clacke>
several of the have been real zingers, criticism of 70s CS that still holds todat
<clacke>
today*
<beneroth>
it's very old, but you wont notice except he once mentions the price of 1 MB RAM to be like 12$ a month...
<beneroth>
yep
<beneroth>
exactly
<Regenaxer>
OK, I subscribed to Eric Normand
<beneroth>
no progress
<Regenaxer>
lets see
<Regenaxer>
(let's listen I mean)
<beneroth>
same applies to the stuff of Dijkstra, Brooks and Alan Kay... still valid still mostly ignored, and people why we have the software crisis going on for more than 60 years..
<clacke>
he did read Alan Kay 1-2 episodes ago
<clacke>
I think "the 1000 next programming languages" is Kay
<clacke>
it's a dozen episodes ago, it's not Kay, and it's the next 700 programming languages =)
<beneroth>
I saw in that RSS you linked "disagreements with joscha bach".. I'm interested in that. I couldn't come up with good arguments againsts Joscha's model. I find joscha's pretty compelling, but then again I look at that topic from multiple angles for some time now... (RAW etc)
<clacke>
I guess this is why I haven't heard of these people before
<beneroth>
Fridman appears to be well known, but I found him via Bach
<clacke>
aha, ok, that's good
<beneroth>
Joscha Bach I saw first years on Chaos Communication Congress, he held machine learning talks there
<beneroth>
he had a series of talks there, explaining machine learning pretty good I found, and then later talks became more philosophical ;-)