<endformationage>
SeanTAllen: I think I'll have a third run through the Tutorial, etc, and make some notes of it to begin with, and I'd be happy to help for what it's worth.
<endformationage>
Something that may be helpful could be runable examples with the errors, and the fixes for them included.
<jemc>
FYI, `HashMap[String, String, HashEq[String]]` can be shortened as `Map[String, String]`
<FunkyBob>
thanks
<jemc>
(this is because `collections/map.pony` defines the following type alias: `type Map[K: (Hashable #read & Equatable[K] #read), V] is HashMap[K, V, HashEq[K]]`)
<FunkyBob>
updated in code repo
<endformationage>
This reminds me, I was looking at persistent HashMap and the usage mentioned Maps.from for creating from a key value pairs literal, but it seems not to exist.
<jemc>
FunkyBob: that's a pretty nice little example of "useful" application in Pony in just a few lines - great work!
<FunkyBob>
jemc: thanks :)
<FunkyBob>
my next post will have my web server
<FunkyBob>
which is 96 LoC so far
<jemc>
endformationage: good catch - the docstring is out of date
<SeanTAllen>
FunkyBob: is that "published"?
<FunkyBob>
yes
<FunkyBob>
but I relaly feel it's unfinished
<jemc>
endformationage: in that docstring, `Maps.empty[String,U32]()` should be `Map[String,U32]`, and `Maps.from[String,U32]([("a", 2), ("b", 3)])` should be `Map[String,U32].concat([("a", 2), ("b", 3)].values())`
<SeanTAllen>
shall i put it in Planet Pony and in "Last Week in Pony" yet FunkyBob ?
<endformationage>
I did eventually find concat :)
<FunkyBob>
SeanTAllen: wait until (my) tonight... I'll try to flesh it out
<SeanTAllen>
ok
<FunkyBob>
it's 11:13 am here
<SeanTAllen>
ya
<SeanTAllen>
ill check when i get up in the morning
<FunkyBob>
and I really should be focusing on this rush job at work :P
<SeanTAllen>
FunkyBob: if you want, we are always open to PRs for examples/ in Ponyc. in general, they just need some docs to explain how it works etc
<FunkyBob>
sure
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<hooo>
this bug is open for a long time and it sounds really serious
<hooo>
the generic httpserver shipped with ponyc has reproducable segfaults and memory overuse
<hooo>
it's a tiny sample program, so that makes me feel like it's a general problem with pony
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<SeanTAllen>
we are working on a fix. every bug can be classified as "a general problem with pony" in the sense that its an implementation error or oversight.
<hooo>
I dont have a problem with bugs, but the claim of ponylang is that it's PROVEN to be correct right? I mean that seems proven to be untrue due to these bugs
<hooo>
so it makes me wonder if your entire claim and algorithm is false if these issues stay up so long
<SeanTAllen>
ok
<SeanTAllen>
you are welcome to wonder that
<hooo>
im just trying to show you what potential users will feel like when they see this stuff
<SeanTAllen>
it took us quite a while to find the bug that causes 837 and we are working on a fix
<SeanTAllen>
some problems are difficult
<SeanTAllen>
pony is a pre-1.0 project
<hooo>
ok i just wanted to give some feedback, thanks
<SeanTAllen>
just a little feedback: none of this felt like you wanted to give feedback
<hooo>
well mostly I go to programming language channels to complain, but it's still real feedback that real users will experience
<hooo>
I'm like a consultant who is giving out free advice
<SeanTAllen>
i'm interested in folks who are interested in doing work and helping the community. your "free advice" isn't helpful. if you want to help, pick up an issue and help fix it. otherwise you come off as a troll.
<hooo>
my advice has value too :(
<jemc>
hooo: being an early adopter on a pre-1.0 project isn't for everyone - it's going to be outside the comfort zone of some folks, and there's not much we can do about that other than what we're already doing - chugging away at the project to refine it toward a polished product
<jemc>
it's also important to recognize the difference between corporate-backed open source projects, and projects like pony that are more like a confluence of individuals working with a variety of different interests and needs organized into some common goals
<jemc>
everyone who's working actively on pony is doing so for "selfish", individual reasons, and so our main incentive for driving adoption right now is not to increase the number of users, but to increase the number of contributors
<cquinn>
@hooo the Pony language is proven mathematically to ensure program correctness. The fact that the current implementation has bugs does not invalidate that proof. Let's all chip in to help the implementation achieve this goal.
<jemc>
so to that end, we primarily prioritize outreach to people who are comfortable with where the project is and/or are excited about where it's headed
<jemc>
so while you're absolutely correct that some people may not be comfortable with the state of the project, it's also not terribly relevant in the above context
<hooo>
ok jemc, I guess that might make some sense. I just look at it from a general user's perspective and see all the lack of tooling
<cquinn>
I hope to help with that. Maybe integrate Pony into CLion. It'd be nice to have a graphical debugger
<cquinn>
but command line tools first I think :)
<jemc>
we definitely do want to improve tooling - but the main point is in order for us to have it, someone needs to work on it - unlike a corporate-backed project we don't have "resources" to allocate - we just have people with interests and needs, and we're just trying to stitch efforts those together into a coherent project
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<hooo>
cquinn, I would really suggest vscode but whatever. It's incredibly easy to make extensions for vscode
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<hooo>
like, I know nothing about it and I was able to make a debugger in a single day (for gdb +rust). I stopped though because the dwarf symbols were so bad
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<endformationage>
I was thinking about how a language server plugin like that for Pony could perhaps help one see RCap changes to an object's fields due to viewpoint adaptation.
<endformationage>
Of course it could do lots of things...
<SeanTAllen>
there's a lot that could be done there
<SeanTAllen>
a number of editors are moving to support LSP so that would be really nice as well
<SeanTAllen>
its a matter of someone having the itch and taking it on and probably driving changes to the compiler to support better
<SeanTAllen>
i've been trying to get someone excited about LSP for a while now. sadly, no one yet :(
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<jemc>
it might get easier once my work on the pony-compiler-in-pony is far enough along to be able to create a convenient in-pony way to access the symbols in a given set of source files
<hooo>
What does LSP stand for?
<hooo>
oh right
<hooo>
nvm
<SeanTAllen>
endformationage: are you "patternspandemic" on Github?
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<endformationage>
SeanTAllen: I am.
<endformationage>
Also I am excited about it but do not have underlying skills. :p
* endformationage
doesn't know mush about compilers
<cquinn>
endformationage thanks!
<SeanTAllen>
there's plenty of non compiler ways to help if you want to. documentation for more of the standard library is a great way to start learning pony and there's still plenty of it that needs better documentation. if you are itching to help endformationage, i can probably help you find something that excites you and is doable based on current knowledge.
<cquinn>
SeanTAllen: how is the progress on writing the Pony compiler in Pony? At least the frontend bits
<endformationage>
cquinn: yeah, I made the comment about supporting config files
<SeanTAllen>
cquinn: jemc is the one to ask on that
<cquinn>
it's another exciting enabling step.
<SeanTAllen>
meanwhile, yesterday i forked the pony options class to make it support chaining. because my life is sad. :(
<endformationage>
SeanTAllen: I made my way here from an interest in flowbased-programming (FBP), and saw the similarities between Pony's actors and a lot of FBP concepts.
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<jemc>
cquinn: it's my main focus right now - I hope to have an API for Pony source code to strongly typed data structures very soon
<cquinn>
sweet!
<jemc>
I've implemented the lexer using sylvanc's `peg` library, and I've finished the initial work porting the LL1 parser over from the macro-based C source last night
<jemc>
now I'm in the process of cleaning up the LL1 implementation, adding a test framework for testing it out, adding some test cases, and fixing any bugs that crop up
<jemc>
I'm also in the process of devising a scheme for translating the free-form AST lists into the strongly typed data structures (which are already mostly in place, written via code generation)
<jemc>
the curreny ponyc compiler is all written around very loosely-typed AST lists, and this is a source of a lot of compiler bugs, so I expect that using strongly typed data structures for the internal representation will be a big boon
<jemc>
I also think the added clarity will make working with the compiler more approachable for aspiring compiler contributors
<cquinn>
I agree.
<SeanTAllen>
endformationage: that's interesting. we spent a lot of time thinking about FBP while we were working on Wallaroo at Sendence (which is written in pony)
<cquinn>
Wallaroo sounds very Australian
<endformationage>
Hah, interesting indeed.
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<endformationage>
SeanTAllen: ... especially after reading your 'Hello Wallaroo!' post. Cool stuff.
<SeanTAllen>
more coming soon!
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