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<SirRolin>
@seanTAllen do you remember recommending me an example that could reconnect to a server? because i have fiddled allot with my version of it and found out a mistake which, in the words of a developer from postgresql "that's terrible". instead of listening to the events it did sent a command to the server and looked for the result of that. to check for the server connection
<SeanTAllen>
SirRolin: I'm not sure what you did specifically. I was pointing out a way to reconnect if you had lost a connection.
<SeanTAllen>
If I understand what you are saying, the pg connections can become non-responsive while remaining up requiring you to reconnect yes
<SeanTAllen>
?
<SeanTAllen>
I didn't recommend a way to know that the connection is gone, purely how in pony, you want to go about handling reconnecting.
<SeanTAllen>
Perhaps that wasn't clear and you read more into my "go look at the Wallaroo TCPSink"
<SeanTAllen>
in which case, I apologize for not being more clear
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<SirRolin>
yeah I read abunch of it, and I don't think it was your fault, just thought it was weird that the TCPsink used such a way.
<SirRolin>
don't feel bad, cause you're doing a good job :) just wanted to inform
<SeanTAllen>
There's nothing wrong with how the TCPSink works
<SeanTAllen>
If reconnects if a connection goes away
<SeanTAllen>
In your PG case, it sounds like you need to account for the connection remaining open but it becoming unusable which sadly seems to be a common scenario with databases
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<SeanTAllen>
I know some people who run a query before every other query to check that the connection is still up
<SeanTAllen>
That's pretty terrible in my mind but in my experience is often needed
<SeanTAllen>
That's a protocol issue though
<SeanTAllen>
the connection itself is fine
<SeanTAllen>
the problem is the other end no longer responding
<SeanTAllen>
you need different strategies to address those
<SeanTAllen>
the TCPSink strategy is what you need to deal with connections going away
<SeanTAllen>
it won't help at all for connections that have become useless
<SeanTAllen>
but "useless" is specific to a given server on the other end
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<moonythedwarf>
Hi! :)
<jemc>
moonythedwarf: hello!
<moonythedwarf>
Been looking. Is there a package manager, or at least a primitive package installer, avaliable yet?
<moonythedwarf>
(Dependency collecting is unfun :P)
<moonythedwarf>
Small and simple enough to not take much time, complex enough to generally touch the various cornerstones of a new language.
<aturley>
we have a section on the website where folks describe their first pony experience. if you're interested in participating you should keep some notes of your journey. https://www.ponylang.org/categories/my-first-pony
* moonythedwarf
sees "love/hate learning relationship with Rust." immediately
<moonythedwarf>
I honestly think i have a rather strange way of learning a new language: I dont often read language specs and docs, or even the tutorial (besides skimming it). I read through existing code, oftentimes from the language's own compiler and/or std.
<moonythedwarf>
I dunno how I learn from it, i just seem to pick up the language.
<aturley>
please report back on how that works with pony.
<moonythedwarf>
will do. It seems ok for now. (Language is fairly readable if you can read Python and C)
<moonythedwarf>
one thing i dont get from my skimming is 'class val'
<jemc>
I think you'll find pony to be very readable without context, but you may have trouble when it comes to writing it - particularly when it comes to the reference capabilities, which are really the unique selling point of pony
<moonythedwarf>
Yea, that seems to be the case.
<moonythedwarf>
Readability without context is nevertheless a huge bonus
<aturley>
that means that any time that class is used the default reference capability is `val` (normally it would be `ref`)
<moonythedwarf>
mm.
<aturley>
so the `String` class uses `class val`.
<moonythedwarf>
i assume that makes it a value instead of a reference?
<jemc>
mooneythedwarf: if you're specifically avoiding the tutorial, I could point you to some blog posts that give the big picture view on ref caps:
<aturley>
yeah, jemc is right, reference capabilities are probably where you'll run into issues.
<jemc>
since the "by value" or "by reference" concepts you're inferring a total red herrings here :)
<aturley>
i mean, i'm curious if you could deduce it from reading the compiler source.
<moonythedwarf>
this is kinda odd syntax: `Equatable[Item]` (In Acolyte). I'm guessing it means Item can be compared (==) to Item?
<jemc>
moonythedwarf: that's a type parameter - it's part of how you deal with *generics* in pony (related to the concept of collections in other languages)
<jemc>
similar to type templating in C
<moonythedwarf>
Ah. I generally expect type parameters to use < > like in C++ or Rust
<moonythedwarf>
commentary in ponyc's SRC is a little sparse.
<moonythedwarf>
way too sparse for me to figure much out.
<moonythedwarf>
may as well read the tutorial. Not worth the effort to skim/read code.
<moonythedwarf>
You can figure out a lot until you reach references
<moonythedwarf>
i like the destructive read thing :)
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<moonythedwarf>
> `If you've done concurrent programming before, you'll know that threads can be expensive.`
<moonythedwarf>
well duh :P
<moonythedwarf>
minor complaint: If a file contains a error, every file that depends on it will error about not being able to load a package
<moonythedwarf>
this could, in large codebases, result in error cascades of 'can't load package'
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<moonythedwarf>
and, alongside that, the resulting errors from the root error provide no extra information
<aturley>
moonythedwarf yeah, sometimes the cascading errors can be a little overwhelming.
<aturley>
i think i've been looking at them long enough that i've developed strategies for coping.
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<aturley>
moonythedwarf do you have time to file an issue about that?
<moonythedwarf>
aturley, imagine if llvm was rewritten in pony, and somewhere, deep in the code, someone made a syntax error causing typo. I think that should be patched out :P And I do. Will do it.
<aturley>
moonythedwarf thanks!
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<aturley>
moonythedwarf i work on a big-ish pony codebase and i definitely have seen these things happen.
<moonythedwarf>
Filed.
<moonythedwarf>
Considering the reason i'm learning pony, this could become debilitating for me eventually. (Writing a game, in itself. Small multiplayer game). So i want it fixed too.
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<moonythedwarf>
Now that i think about it, Pony would be *perfect* for writing a IRC Daemon
<Candle>
moonythedwarf: heh, I've got some of one of them lurking around somewhere.
<Candle>
async, message based language... --> chat server.
<Candle>
See the multiple erlang chat servers around!
<moonythedwarf>
haha
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<moonythedwarf>
async, actor based language --> Games, Chat servers, and massively parrallel data processing
<Candle>
Games are a little harder as they generally need a single main simulation loop.
<moonythedwarf>
yea. But not always. The project i'm learning pony for (Which is a game) can run in a async manner, by having players provide the ticks for nearby objects
<moonythedwarf>
And of course, objects rarely care about ticks, because they are mostly async in the project's design.
<moonythedwarf>
Only entities currently pathing or moving provide their own clock
<moonythedwarf>
Issues can't easily arise thanks to the way Actors work (Multiple players trying to work at the same time with sync up due to actors being otherwise sync)
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<moonythedwarf>
alongside that, thats mostly annihilated by using a main clock anyways, because doing it any other way is silly
<moonythedwarf>
Just, very few entities actually do any ticking
<Blahblah8888>
Hi
<Candle>
\o/ threading problem removed by actors!
<moonythedwarf>
hi
<moonythedwarf>
\o/
<moonythedwarf>
(I hate manual threading. I really do.)
<Blahblah8888>
My name is Stevan, I have a question about Pony if I may ask
<moonythedwarf>
Sure.
<moonythedwarf>
You dont need to ask to aks
<moonythedwarf>
*ask
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<moonythedwarf>
i just now realised jem c is a operator.
<Blahblah8888>
I've considered either using Elixir, Erlang and Pony and have decided on using Pony. Anyways I'm really confused about how using Pony and a database Works for web design. Do you basically write your own server and database in Pony or is it possible to use postgresql etc? I'm a noob to programming so excuse my ignorance but I know some basic stuff so you don't have to dumb it down too much lol
<aturley>
Blahblah8888 welcome!
<moonythedwarf>
Blahblah8888, its possible to use an external database, but i wouldn't recommend pony for a beginner programmer, at least not yet: Pony is pre-release. It's not stable, doesnt have many libraries, and a few other issues. But it is very much possible to use, say, postgresql.
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<Blahblah8888_>
I've considered either using Elixir, Erlang and Pony and have decided on using Pony. Anyways I'm really confused about how using Pony and a database
<moonythedwarf>
I'll repeat:
<moonythedwarf>
Blahblah8888, its possible to use an external database, but i wouldn't recommend pony for a beginner programmer, at least not yet: Pony is pre-release. It's not stable, doesnt have many libraries, and a few other issues. But it is very much possible to use, say, postgresql.
<moonythedwarf>
It's better to go with Elixir or Erlang for now.
<aturley>
Blahblah8888 pony programs can call C code, so you could in theory use a C client to connect to your database.
<aturley>
or you could write your own client.
<moonythedwarf>
^
<Blahblah8888_>
Is it necessary to use an external database or is this possible in Pony ?
<aturley>
or, i believe there are some existing clients.
<aturley>
Blahblah8888 well, i mean, you could certainly store values in your pony program.
<Blahblah8888_>
Sorry for the repeat I got booted and had to refresh so I didn't see
<moonythedwarf>
it's fine.
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<Blahblah8888_>
I think the syntax is appealing to me I think it would be a great first language to learn. I understand it's still in development but it may pay off to learn Pony
<moonythedwarf>
If you're willing to work with a in-dev language, then its perfect. The in-dev and lack of libs is the issue, but it could be a learning experience to write your own libraries.
<moonythedwarf>
If you're ok with using either of those databases (only one is needed), then tackroom should work.
<Blahblah8888_>
Ty
<moonythedwarf>
issue is
<moonythedwarf>
it lacks docs
<Blahblah8888_>
That seems to be the crux of Pony however I'm a patient person and Pony is very interesting
<moonythedwarf>
Well, if you can read Pony's SRC, it should document itself. Pony is rather easy to read.
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<Blahblah8888_>
Right
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<Blahblah8888_>
What would be a similar language to Pony that I can find a suitable database program to reverse engineer?
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<moonythedwarf>
Dont reverse engineer a database! :P Instead, read the docs for one. I can
<moonythedwarf>
't personally recommend one tho
<Blahblah8888_>
Not a carbon copy of something but more of finding out the way it works
<moonythedwarf>
All you need to know is how to interface with the DB.
<Blahblah8888_>
I know there has to be a way to organize files, update, set file permissions etc
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<Blahblah8888_>
okay
<Blahblah8888_>
Is it possible to write a cms for Pony in Pony Lang?
<moonythedwarf>
cms?
<Blahblah8888_>
Content management system
<moonythedwarf>
webserver?
<moonythedwarf>
Probably.
<Blahblah8888_>
Awesome
<moonythedwarf>
s/probably/definitely/
<moonythedwarf>
see net/http in the standard library
<Blahblah8888_>
Okay I've read through a lot but have yet to tinker
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<moonythedwarf>
Blahblah8888_, follow along with the Tutorial
<Blahblah8888_>
There is a new service out that is supposed to be better than websockets idk what it's called I believe it's http2? Does Pony have support yet?
<moonythedwarf>
???
<Blahblah8888_>
Lol brb sorry
<Blahblah8888_>
Http2 vs websockets google search that
<Blahblah8888_>
Several sse streams over a single tcp vs websockets
<Blahblah8888_>
It's using push instead of websockets and it's suppose to be a lot better performance wise
<Blahblah8888_>
Sorry I didn't mean to take over this thread I've got too many questions
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<Blahblah8888>
Well thanks for the advice I'm gonna ask around other places about the http2 support for Pony I will get started on the tutorial now
<Blahblah8888>
Happy Holidays
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