<qmasterrr>
hi, i have problems to compile gnuplot with the latest git
<qmasterrr>
seems that gnuplot needs libpng 1.4 but we are at libpng 1.2
<larsc>
send a patch that updates libpng
<larsc>
:)
<qmasterrr>
now directFB wont compile against libpng 1.4.4
<larsc>
hm :/
<larsc>
looks as if you have to update directfb as well.
<qmasterrr>
idirectfbimageprovider_png.c:207: warning: 'jmpbuf' is deprecated (declared at /home/qmasterrr/xburst/openwrt-xburst/staging_dir/target-mipsel_uClibc-0.9.32/usr/include/png.h:1098
<larsc>
the lastest version is said to compile against libpng 1.4.x
<qmasterrr>
what do you need exactly? its a big file :)
<qmasterrr>
there is the same error as above
<aisa>
This isn't an answer to your question directly, but I've found that libpng's .so location tends to move around, so my first guess would be that the version bump means the file is hiding somewhere it didn't used to be at.
<larsc>
anything interesting in the lines above or beneath the error?
<qmasterrr>
configure says configure:27999: error: recommended PNG functions feature could not be enabled
<aisa>
that is probably the result of an earlier error.
<aisa>
during compilation of libpng.
<tuxbrain_away>
wpwrak: you there?
<qmasterrr>
hum, libpng compiled fine
<aisa>
Indeed, but with which features?  When the configure (or configure-like) step was running,
<aisa>
did it report not finding a header file or something similar?
<tuxbrain_away>
once you tellme that to achive high serial speeds with the sd I should need a microcontroler.... well any clue where to start investiganting?
<qmasterrr>
aisa: let me check that
<tuxbrain_away>
with out any knowledge I can deduce it sould be 3,3 V, but at the end I want to comunicate with a 5V UART so I should need also need rise Tx and rise Rx at some place
<aisa>
Did you echo the exact message you are seeing?  I don't recall.
<tuxbrain_away>
also I have a quiestion(s)? how the sdio I/O should be connected to that microcontroler? better said, what I don't understand is why with a microcontroler sdio will accept higher amounts/speed of data than directly doing a soft serial?
<qmasterrr>
aisa: yes configure: WARNING: Could not find libpng in the pkg-config search path
<aisa>
where is this message happening at?  during the build of the libpng package, or from another package trying to link to it?
<qmasterrr>
during configure of cairo
<qmasterrr>
libpng build fine
<tuxbrain_away>
this development will have two phases, phase one one breakout board (the custom one I made will fit) and a breadboard to do the circuitry without need to solder integrate, and one achive to do decent sdio to 5V UART comunication at 57600 bps at least then design a uSD adapter as you have done with wpan
<aisa>
what is the path to cairo?  I can't find it in my tree.
<qmasterrr>
its in xorg -> lib -> cairo
<aisa>
thank you for walking me though this...
<tuxbrain_away>
but the wold of microcontrolers is to new and my only experience is with ATMEL 328 at arduino level
<tuxbrain_away>
it would be cool if I can use one of those micros due I plenty of source of that, but I can guess than being 5V will have problems with our 3,3V NN
<tuxbrain_away>
I think I better ask on the list.
<qmasterrr>
aisa: i needed a package from xorg for gnuplot :/
<aisa>
I would need to learn more about how pkg-config works, I don't see anything obvious to fix...
<aisa>
I'm very new to OpenWRT/NanoNote development.  ~1 month.  I'm still finding my legs.
<qmasterrr>
hehe, i'm new to the whole crosscompilation stuff
<qmasterrr>
i'm now trying to build just gnuplot
<rafa>
qmasterrr: what do you mean with "i couldn't find gnuplot in jlime" ?
<qmasterrr>
something must be wrong with my jlime, after opkg update; i just got an "killed" for opkg list
<qmasterrr>
and opkg seemed to stop working
<rafa>
qmasterrr: ah, I see. You need at least 32MB of swap. That is nothing wrong with your system surely, just that it does not have swap. We will not need thatfix that in beta4
<kristianpaul>
mrxvt saves my slow day !
<qmasterrr>
rafa: ah thankyou :)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: now i am :)
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: I'm writting a mail to the list but, have you read my intentions and cry for help?
<wpwrak>
yes, just read it
<wpwrak>
(3V vs. 5V) you may not need a level shifter. often, 3.3 V outputs are compatible with 5 V inputs. you need to check the respective data sheets for this.
<wpwrak>
for 5 V -> 3.3. V, you need a voltage divider. some 3.3 V chips also have 5 V compatible inputs (no clamping diodes).
<wpwrak>
(controller type) i was thinking of a design that combines UART and SPI. you'd talk to the controller with SPI and the controller would take care of UART. that way, you have relaxed timing on the host side and the MCU's hardware takes care of all the hairy bit timing.
<tuxbrain>
so afaik, the ATmega328 is able to do that....
<tuxbrain>
ok ok, but let face two factors, I'm plenty of Atmega328 righ now
<kristianpaul>
:)
<wpwrak>
okay :)
<tuxbrain>
also in the form factor to plug on a breadboard
<tuxbrain>
If I achive to comunicate with this chip over SPI with the sdio, will be in fact a great success by it self
<wpwrak>
it has plenty or RAM, too. so you can buffer a LOT of data ...
<tuxbrain>
so we can narrow specifiation later, on the desing of the UART->sd interface
<wpwrak>
does the communication have to be 8 bit transparent ?
<tuxbrain>
ehm? mmmmm? eeeeeh?... maybe?
<tuxbrain>
:P
<tuxbrain>
you know what is mi objective, comunicate a arduino board with NN though uSD
<wpwrak>
the question is how you indicate presence of data. e.g., when the host does one SPI transaction, can it just send/receive one byte and put a 0 if there's none to send/receive, or do you need to put any sort of "real" protocol on top of the SPI link ?
<tuxbrain>
far from that I know barelly nothing right now
<wpwrak>
well, of course, since you control the software on both sides, you can always figure this out later :)
<wpwrak>
bonus points for making the design such that you can flash the firmware of the board from the ben
<wpwrak>
you should also let the ben provide the clock. so you don't need a crystal.
<tuxbrain>
yes :) that the final goal of all it
<tuxbrain>
yes since you tellme I allwais have clear this part :)
<tuxbrain>
allways
<tuxbrain>
and that's a clear advantage, so the question is , there is any SPI comm though SDIO righ now even in development?
<wpwrak>
one problem you'll have is that you don't have enough I/O lines on uSD
<tuxbrain>
damn it
<wpwrak>
(right now) if you count yourself, yes ;-) if not, probably, somewhere
<tuxbrain>
heheeheh
<wpwrak>
(not enough IO) to solve this, you can generate the reset signal, e.g., when SS and SCLK both are high
<tuxbrain>
ok so it only means than only one i/o is missing?, so I have to generate it though a combination of other two, ok
<wpwrak>
yup
<wpwrak>
you have a full SPI (atusd is the proof)
<tuxbrain>
but those two signals will be ever been high both on "current" use?
<wpwrak>
SPI defines that the clock is L when inactive and that nSS is H when inactive. so, unless you want to have multiple SPI slaves on the us, you can avoid both of them being high at the same time
<wpwrak>
(clock L) that is, when you lower a slave's nSS, then SCLK must already be L. before, it can be anything, e.g., when talking to another slave. but since you have only one slave, you avoid this condition
<tuxbrain>
hehe enough to undertand one to one comunication not intention of making  a bus :)
<tuxbrain>
ok
<wpwrak>
in case you really need a bus, you could always send a target selection at the beginning of an SPI transfer :)
<tuxbrain>
(I said ok as I understand a fuck of what you have said but, I think this words will be important at some point in the development)
<wpwrak>
well, for now you can be content with just a single slave. that lone ATmega can already do a lot :)
<wpwrak>
the device at the 5 V end (in the arduino) will also be an ATmega328 ?
<tuxbrain>
yes
<wpwrak>
or are there other gates in the way ?
<tuxbrain>
no is an atmega328 with some belts and whistles
<wpwrak>
ah, the 328 isa ctually fairly cheap, too. thought it was more expensive.
<tuxbrain>
I sell it for 4¬ and I have some margin so yes is quite cheap
<wpwrak>
yup. even a single  piece is only USD 3.28 at digi-key. much less if you buy 25 or more.
<tuxbrain>
I the ones I have have already the arduino bootloader inside
<wpwrak>
i hope you got the 28 MLF variant. that way, you can use the atusd form factor.
<wpwrak>
that boot loader is probably not very useful. you can just program it directly, though. the memory programming interface uses the SPI signals. so, besides, nRESET, you already have everything
<tuxbrain>
I don't think so , but this will be phase two, integration, on phase one I will use a breadboard for tests and such
<wpwrak>
for nRESET, use a 74...1Gsomething or just a pair of NPN transistors
<wpwrak>
you can make this beast very very small
<tuxbrain>
you mean I can program directly with NN trough spi....
<tuxbrain>
wow
<wpwrak>
yup
<tuxbrain>
ho ho ho, this will open some eyes in Arduino communitie man
<tuxbrain>
community
<wpwrak>
you need a programmer then, though. not sure if it's easier to just write your own or to tweak an existing one.
<tuxbrain>
programmer is soft?
<wpwrak>
yes
<tuxbrain>
ho ho ho
<wpwrak>
something like avrdude
<tuxbrain>
but though spi
<wpwrak>
the protocol is always a kind of SPI. just that you use nRESET instead of nSS
<wpwrak>
it's all described in "serial downloading", section 27.8, of the atmega48...328 manual
<wpwrak>
mompls, gotta bring out the trash ...
<kristianpaul>
juan64bits: hey
<kristianpaul>
juan64bits: do you know how get boot mode in SIE?
<juan64bits>
yes, with the jumper 15, and then press the reset button
<wpwrak>
back. let's check the voltage levels for compatibility
<wpwrak>
Voh(min@3V)Â Â = 2.3 V. Vih(max@5V) = 0.6 * Vcc = 3 V. hmm, nominally, this is bad. however, Iih is so low that you'll have more then 3 V. so in practice, you shouldn't need a level shifter.
<kristianpaul>
thanks juan64bits
<kristianpaul>
ah yes
<kristianpaul>
just looking the LCM righ side, the PCB labels are inverted :p
<tuxbrain>
on my serial test I can connect an arduino board directly to NNÂ Â , this means something?
<wpwrak>
now, for the voltage divider ... you need to take into account the parasitic capacitance at the input pin. so the resistors can't be too large. let's say we use a cutoff frequency of 200 kHz and a capacitance of 20 pF. then you get ... fc = 1/(2*pi*R*C)
<wpwrak>
about 36 kOhm. not too bad. maybe just make it 10 kOhm.
<wpwrak>
(connect directly) yes, that should be okay. again, with a voltage divider in the 5 V -> 3.3 V direction
<tuxbrain>
ok
<wpwrak>
for atmega to atmega, a 1:2 divider should do
<wpwrak>
so your bom is ... an atmega, 2 x 10 kOhm, a 100 nF cap, and a single NAND gate
<wpwrak>
plus whatever connector you use for the cable that goes to the aduino. maybe a 3 pin 100 mil header will do. you could even place it where i have the antenna in atusd, so it won't stick out
<wpwrak>
much of this is fancy at86rf230 reset logic and the various read/write operations, so you can ignore this part
<tuxbrain>
and due nReset is only needed in case I need to program it , It's save to think that with you code (the spi functions) seems "easy" to think it can work barelly out of the box ....
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: grumble. seems that openscad can't extrude a 3D surface
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: :)
<kristianpaul>
ahh
<kristianpaul>
cant?
<wpwrak>
well, you'll have to program it sooner or later :) so better plan for it
<kristianpaul>
why..
<kristianpaul>
ok
<tuxbrain>
ok :)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: is has 2D DXF extrusion and some geometric extrusions for 2D shapes
<kristianpaul>
ahap
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: but nothing for things in 3D space. it has a projection of 3D on 2D, so it's very close
<kristianpaul>
i know ;)
<tuxbrain>
well guys enough neuron struggling for my mind for now, a lot of piece of info to study and mess :) thanks a loooooot
<wpwrak>
i read some of the discussions on the mailing list. amazing how upset some people can get about some quirks in variable handling :)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: you'll have interesting dreams tonight :)
<kristianpaul>
:D
<tuxbrain>
nightmares , man, are called nighmares
<kristianpaul>
noo :)
<wpwrak>
;-)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: had u tried heeks python?
<kristianpaul>
at least it can do things in 3D space
<wpwrak>
yes, but i don't think heekscad can extrude 3D things either, or can it ?
<kristianpaul>
you mean extrude froma 2D shape?
<wpwrak>
no, extrude a 3D surface
<wpwrak>
(i.e., the mesh)
<kristianpaul>
heeks dont uses meshes
<wpwrak>
what i need is either a function that lets me extrude each face and then do the intersection of them, or a function that lets me build a solid out of two parallel meshes (or similar)
<wpwrak>
well, it can read them
<wpwrak>
so whatever they become :)
<kristianpaul>
heekspython allow create you parametric primtives
<kristianpaul>
move
<kristianpaul>
all you can do with the GUI
<kristianpaul>
even boolean operations
<wpwrak>
yes, heekspython can do many things the gui can do. but can you do what i just described with the gui ?
<aisa>
DocScrutinizer: I'm glad you understand all that ;-)
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: the only way to survive in the schematics jungle :)
<wpwrak>
hmm, there's an interesting problem in the AUDIO sheet of AVT2. the transistors keep on changing. i first thought that was just an oddball change, but this doesn't look right.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: btw, as how problematic do you consider dsv ? it currently lives a somewhat hidden life in ben-wpan/scripts/, even though it's not at all specific to that project. eda-tools would be better place. of course, when moving it there, i should also mention this. so this increases visibility. do you think this is a problem ?
<wolfspraul>
dsv? what is that?
<wpwrak>
the data sheet viewer
<wpwrak>
the one that encourages "deep links"
<wolfspraul>
why should it be 'problematic'?
<wolfspraul>
ahh, OK
<wolfspraul>
now I got it
<wolfspraul>
well it's not the fault of the dsv that some websites have stupid policies, is it?
<wolfspraul>
so I don't consider it problematic at all
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wpwrak>
kewl
<wolfspraul>
policies against deep links are somewhere off the chart on my stupidity scale that I cannot even think about them, really
<wolfspraul>
can you?
<wolfspraul>
it's just too much
<wpwrak>
yeah, for me it's also bordering on insanity. i can understand certain types of concerns with them, but the sort of use we make should be very far from that
<wpwrak>
(valid concerns) e.g., if someone pretends its their work or such
<wolfspraul>
if these companies had any self respect, they would just turn off their HTTP servers
<wolfspraul>
anyway
<wolfspraul>
yes, please, move the dsv to eda-tools
<wpwrak>
well, they could always check the referer ...
<wpwrak>
hmm, now that we have multiple committers for ben-wpan and thus sometimes branches, it will be interesting to see how schhist holds up :)
<wolfspraul>
it will only run on the default/master branch I would think, no?
<wpwrak>
hmm yes, but what is the "true" master branch in this case ? :)
<wpwrak>
in any case, git log and git rev-list sees all the changes, so things should be fine
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: btw, perhaps it would be nice to have a link from somewhere on the project page to the schematics diffs. that way, people don't need to remember the location.
<wolfspraul>
yes agreed, would need to find how to do this easily though
<wolfspraul>
I'm currently cleaning up the community news/blogging stuff
<wolfspraul>
after that want to finally make this wiki->OpenWrt link, so one can write scripts (or other apps) in the wiki, and have them packaged up as an OpenWrt opkg automatically
<wpwrak>
ah, another area of mild to strong obsolescence :)
<wolfspraul>
obsolescence where?
<wpwrak>
(scripts in wiki) wow, sounds scary :)
<wolfspraul>
scripts in wiki, package them via openwrt on the backend, yes :-)
<wpwrak>
(obsolescence) the blog seems a bit abandoned, no ? well, haven't checked recently ... lemme see ...
<wolfspraul>
yes and no
<wpwrak>
also the community news seem to be designed for a weekly update yet happen more like monthly
<wolfspraul>
we have a few people in the community now that I believe can (and want to) really step up on the wiki/news side
<wolfspraul>
yes I think monthly is better
<wolfspraul>
that's what I'm cleaning up right now
<wolfspraul>
I am now feeding the community news from the wiki into the planet
<wpwrak>
i think a "reporter" would be good to have. i'm not so sure just an editor who waits for input from the developers works so well.
<wolfspraul>
yes agreed
<wolfspraul>
I was hoping maybe aisa can grow into that role? :-)
<wolfspraul>
I'm just putting some prerequisites in place now
<wolfspraul>
so that the works makes sense
<aisa>
a role?  for me?
<aisa>
raises hand
<wolfspraul>
did you see the Milkymist 0.9 news? nothing better for me than see a long list of little fixes & improvements
<wolfspraul>
aisa: yes! our 'reporter'
<wolfspraul>
the more investigative the better
<aisa>
ah!  tell me what this involves.
<aisa>
oh, I understand.
<wolfspraul>
just don't steal trash cans like Oracle or SAP or whoever did it... :-)
<aisa>
It is that people are too quiet about what they are working on.
<aisa>
and so they need someone to write/e-mail and say "I really want to know what you are doing>'
<wolfspraul>
well from my perspective there are 2 things
<aisa>
please tell.
<wolfspraul>
first is the wiki homepage, in fact the Qi homepage
<wolfspraul>
it's horrible right now
<wolfspraul>
static jungle of words
<aisa>
I was looking at it just now.
<wolfspraul>
that page needs to become really really good
<wolfspraul>
which is hard :-)
<wolfspraul>
it needs to give entry points to the various projects that are going on, and for people who are coming from different backgrounds/motivations
<wolfspraul>
it's squarely on my todo list, but I do need a partner to discuss things
<wolfspraul>
otherwise I'm just in my own soup, and things can't be good
<wolfspraul>
then, as Werner just said, 'reporter' is a role that has a big big OPEN POSITION sign on it in our community
<wolfspraul>
we have a lot of great, very serious, technical/engineering people
<wolfspraul>
but for a variety of reasons, they are not so good on the communication side
<wolfspraul>
I don't even think that should change, there should be others that look at their work, think about it, translate what it means to others, etc.
<aisa>
ah, ok.
<wolfspraul>
so for me it's a mix between wiki editor/news writer/investigative reporter
<wpwrak>
"planet" looks pretty good
<aisa>
I'm willing to try this, by which I mean I'm willing to participate in this sort of activity.
<aisa>
I won't be able to operate effectively at a high level, like getting articles published in magazines, &c.
<aisa>
but I can certainly manage the wiki and pull information out of people into it.
<aisa>
out of people or their projects.
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: yes planet is nice, I think
<aisa>
My wiki permissions don't permit me to do mid-level work, like moving pages.
<aisa>
I ran into this problem this weekend.
<aisa>
but please, tell me the second thing.
<wolfspraul>
it's a good mix between copyleft hardware oriented technical articles, and the people behind them and what else interests them in their lives
<wpwrak>
aisa: i think one problem is that, while the information is often communicated in some form, it may not be very accessible. e.g., because things relevant to many are mixed with less relevant or overly specialized ones, or because something interesting is spread over a lot of little bits
<aisa>
wpwrak: does an example of this come to mind for you?
<wolfspraul>
the 6502 javascript mask-level simulator is cool!
<wolfspraul>
aisa: permissions!
<kristianpaul>
wonders why there is not a SIE branch in openwrt-xburst
<wpwrak>
aisa: then there are also the things that are cool but that you don't expect to be cool so you don't look at them. a brief presentation/summary can help there.
<wolfspraul>
aisa: sorry I am sometimes mixing up people, your wiki username is Alan Post?
<wolfspraul>
I give you _all_ permissions possible, at any time. just ask.
<wolfspraul>
root account everywhere
<wolfspraul>
I'm pretty radical on these things
<aisa>
My wiki username is User:Alanpost, yes.
<aisa>
It has been quite wonderful, the permission you have given me so soon.  It has been very inspiring to continue working.
<wolfspraul>
the only thing I don't want to do is to give you permissions for technologies that you will never use, or don't understand
<aisa>
On User:Alanpost, you can see I mention my freenode nick to be 'aisa'.
<wolfspraul>
that would be a security risk (because others can hijack your access)
<aisa>
indeed, I don't want them.
<wolfspraul>
so please let me know what you are comfortable with, and know how to operate, and the permissions are yours in 5 minutes
<aisa>
you seemed to know immediately what projects to give me access to.
<aisa>
I want to be able to delete and move pages on the wiki.
<aisa>
I needed to do that this weekend, and could not.
<aisa>
plus, I think our documentation is very poorly organized.
<wolfspraul>
sorry about that, one sec
<aisa>
And I wish to fix this, while maintaining links that still work.
<wpwrak>
aisa: (example) hmm, actually pretty much everything :) as a developer, you have a fairly steady stream of things to address, so even the "milestones" don't pop out all that much in the daily routine. and when reaching one, you may not want to take a break to brag about it.
<wpwrak>
aisa: so the information may just be the commit message posted to this channel.
<aisa>
since we're holding two conversations, may i add a third?  I'm trying to make my first commit to openwrt-xburst. Previously, I've been adding only things in packages.
<aisa>
I get the following error:
<aisa>
To git@projects.qi-hardware.com:openwrt-xburst.git ! [rejected]Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â tracking_backfire -> tracking_backfire (non-fast forward)
<aisa>
error: failed to push some refs to 'git@projects.qi-hardware.com:openwrt-xburst.git'
<aisa>
wpwrak: perfect, I understand that.  This makes sense, the idea being to take raw work done by others and tell a story around it.
<wpwrak>
aisa: up, exactly this
<aisa>
that story being something that people outside the project can understand and relate to, with one goal being to draw them in.
<wpwrak>
aisa: it's often hard to make a weekly story of what you're doing. particularly also since you may not feel you've reached just the right point. so some distance to the project helps.
<aisa>
indeed, I have experienced this.  My first software prject I worked on for many years and still it isn't published.  Because I just didn't know when to stop.
<wpwrak>
years is bad :)
<aisa>
I learned a very valuable lesson ;-)
<wolfspraul>
rejected? maybe permissions problems
<wolfspraul>
first step: I made your account a Wiki admin
<aisa>
I hope you let me get away with that commit ;-)
<wolfspraul>
you changed the splash screen?
<aisa>
I had my local branch and remote branch mismatched.
<wolfspraul>
ah, I see. just the drink recpie.
<wolfspraul>
recipe
<aisa>
No, I changed the whole splash screen.
<aisa>
removing the drink recipe, which I felt the worst about.
<wolfspraul>
why that? (curious)
<aisa>
That I could certainly put back in, and I can put back in a reference to OpenWrt.
<aisa>
I want my machine to tell me I'm running a NanoNote when I log in.
<aisa>
sort of "branding" our distribution a bit more.
<wpwrak>
regarding wiki, i'm still dreaming of a shell integration. one thing that prevents me from doing things on the wiki (such a maintaining a project overview page or such) is that it's very intrusive in the workflow. instead of just editing a file on the side, i need a whole screen with a browser, have to worry about edits that won't be saved until I "commit" them, and so on. a wiki that lives off git or such wouldn't have this problem.
<wolfspraul>
there is (was) a wikifs wiki filesystem project
<wolfspraul>
but it's abandoned/dead
<aisa>
I did not know that project was dead.
<wolfspraul>
it would show you the wiki in a filesystem format, and handle the revision control on the backend
<wolfspraul>
well, free software never dies
<aisa>
It is very fortunate that we are using mediawiki, as if there was going to be an easy way to work on it from the shell,
<wolfspraul>
so let's say it's not dead
<aisa>
it will happen with mediawiki first.
<wolfspraul>
'unmaintained' :-)
<wolfspraul>
yes agreed
<aisa>
I too wish that mediawiki was a DCSS, like git.
<wolfspraul>
aisa: first for your commit & branding, some feedback
<aisa>
and that I could read/work on it from the command-line.
<aisa>
please please.
<wolfspraul>
I only see you changing the drink recipe, not the graphical OpenWrt splash screen (the city skyline at night)
<aisa>
ah, indeed.
<wolfspraul>
most important: you should feel at home. if you feel the drink recipe is not good, please go ahead and change it. it's good.
<aisa>
I haven't approached the boot image yet.
<wpwrak>
what one would need is basically a mediawiki -> HTML renderer. probably with some slight extensions of mediawiki syntax, to make things more natural for a directory hierarchy
<wolfspraul>
aisa: I think we should leave the openwrt splash logo (city skyline) as is
<wpwrak>
maybe put a better drink ? ;-)
<wolfspraul>
so about branding, my thoughts are that we should not make ourselves look bigger than we are
<aisa>
wpwrak: heh, or wait for the next release ;-)
<wolfspraul>
we (me) have no capacity to maintain any software, really, for the long run
<wolfspraul>
it's a whole OS we are talking about!
<aisa>
wolfspraul: I did wonder about this.
<wolfspraul>
we need help help help
<aisa>
because lots of people work in this space,
<wolfspraul>
so the only way to do that is to see our resources realistically, and focus on packaging, leveraging, and praising the free software work and projects done by others
<aisa>
and in our community, there is no agreement on what distribution should be on the NanoNote.  There is OpenWrt, Debian, Jlime.
<wolfspraul>
I'm agnostic to that. If one day the production setup permits, I wouldn't have any problem in letting people upload images to our servers, and then in the online shop customers could just click on which image they wanted on their NanoNote.
<aisa>
Good, perfect.  I'm glad to hear you say this, because we already struggle to maintain a working OpenWrt on the NanoNote.
<aisa>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
yes, less less less
<wolfspraul>
I only work on doing less
<wolfspraul>
that's enough work :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: hmm, interesting. when i generate avt2, i don't get those phantom changes of the transistors in AUDIO
<aisa>
Well said.
<wolfspraul>
so for me personally, I would not have changed the drink recipe
<wolfspraul>
no time
<wolfspraul>
but like I said, please leave it in if you feel better the way it is now
<aisa>
I will think on this overnight, and in the morning either revert or leave it.
<aisa>
I will likely leave it in my own repo, but this perspective is very helpful to hear.
<wolfspraul>
another thing, when I picture our user, I always try to think of the 'most normal' person I can come up with
<wolfspraul>
of course that's a cliche, but it helps me focus
<aisa>
I struggle with that, because I bought this thing to hack on.
<aisa>
and create my own end-user experience.
<aisa>
and that is the "person" I know using the device.
<aisa>
Allin and I both (Allin Karhl lives near me) use our NanoNotes for this.
<wolfspraul>
so I picture a mom/dad watching over a kid, or struggling with the kid over not doing homework
<wolfspraul>
or someone taking care of their elderly parents
<wolfspraul>
or a guy under crazy pressure from a crazy boss
<wolfspraul>
etc. etc.
<wolfspraul>
like I said, a cliche
<wolfspraul>
but then I think 'what could be meaningful to them'?
<wolfspraul>
how can we explain what we are doing to 'normal' people
<wolfspraul>
is the drink recipe meaningful?
<wolfspraul>
it's cool
<aisa>
Let's go back to the earlier topic,
<wolfspraul>
what about the new message you have now? it's very dry, does it really _explain_ what this is?
<aisa>
ignore what I just said.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: ah, this is the pit of obsolescence i had in mind: http://sharism.cc/blog/
<aisa>
no, I borrowed phrases from the wiki and sharism.cc
<aisa>
It hurts me that that blog is not up to date.
<wolfspraul>
yes! will get to that too
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: similar problem to the forum: there's a place that looks as if should have up to date content but doesn't. so people can draw the conclusion that the project is dead.
<wolfspraul>
one sec, first about the software thing
<aisa>
that is like the first thing people look at, when they search for the NanoNote.
<aisa>
and they see "Oh, this project is dead."
<xiangfu>
aisa: another feedback about commit.
<wolfspraul>
so my priorities are: do as little as possible myself, reuse free software, reuse free software branding. if anything make the free software more accessible/more understandable to regular people.
<wolfspraul>
aisa: does this make sense?
<aisa>
xiangfu: I'm am all and always ears.
<wolfspraul>
that's just my approach...
<xiangfu>
we better add Ben stuff to "data/qi_lb60/files/"
<aisa>
wolfspraul: It makes sense on the surface.  I will again sleep on it to come to a deeper appreciation, and I may have a comment after that.
<wolfspraul>
but please, the best way is if you think from your own perspective. that's fine! if you are the user of the NanoNote you have by far the best intuition of what to change to make it work better for you.
<aisa>
xiangfu: that I can understand, and can move this change there.
<wolfspraul>
since we all do this collectively we might create a really cool device over time
<aisa>
wolfspraul: I wonder about this:
<aisa>
OpenWrt has slightly different goals than Qi Hardware.
<aisa>
specifically, we have a need to craft a more interactive end-user experience,
<aisa>
with things like web browsers, document readers, &c.
<aisa>
I worry that OpenWrt won't support us in doing this.
<wolfspraul>
the OpenWrt people I know are all very happy to be able to grow out of the router only/headless corner
<aisa>
wonderful!  This was not obvious to me, but is good news.
<aisa>
but then, we "compete" with other distributions that are already in this space, no?  Like opie?
<wolfspraul>
I agree that OpenWrt is weak on the interactive/gui side (in terms of packages), but right now I wouldn't know what more support we would like to see from OpenWrt
<wpwrak>
i wonder if it wouldn't be better to push in the direction of jlime. solve the issues with encumbered software. and then make it the standard choice.
<wpwrak>
pro jlime: designed just for the kind of use the ben has, rich environment, mature.
<wpwrak>
(use) both in terms of platform capabilities and user experience
<wolfspraul>
for me personally OpenWrt works fine, and I will continue with it
<wolfspraul>
I would have no problem flashing and selling Nanos with Jlime preinstalled
<wolfspraul>
even dual booting
<wpwrak>
contra jlime: small group of developers/maintainers, not what the "core" of qi distro developers use
<wolfspraul>
but the problem right now is that our #1 distributor, Tuxbrain, wouldn't want me to ship him devices with Jlime on it, because of patent encumbered software
<wpwrak>
of course, if there is to be a change, making it later only makes it harder. cf. the story of make and the infamous tab in makefiles ...
<wolfspraul>
no change, if anything another option
<wpwrak>
well, the change would be in what is the recommended distro
<wolfspraul>
and I understand copyleft hardware as good for _any_ free software
<wolfspraul>
OpenWrt is not the 'recommended' distro
<wpwrak>
sure. but people often need to know what will give them the most. they may not be able to appreciate all the finer details until much later (if ever)
<wolfspraul>
I never liked the wiki page named 'official software image'
<wolfspraul>
should be just 'OpenWrt software image'
<wpwrak>
hmm, openwrt is what comes with the box, it's what prominently features in all the documentation, and sharism even pays people to maintain it. doesn't get much more "official" ;-)
<wolfspraul>
aisa: we are diverting a bit, you still there? :-)
<aisa>
I'm watching and waiting ;-)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: I will change what comes out of the box any day someone wants to order such units
<wpwrak>
yes, but that's chicken and egg
<wolfspraul>
my goal is a shop interface that lets you choose which image you want
<wolfspraul>
that even lets people upload their own images, and when a NanoNote with that image is ordered, they get a royalty :-)
<wolfspraul>
that would be cool
<wolfspraul>
yes sure it's chicken and egg. so I made the first step with OpenWrt.
<wolfspraul>
and so far I (me personally) am very happy with OpenWrt
<wolfspraul>
it solved some big problems, such as the PATENT flag they introduced, very good work on keeping things upstream, excellent kernel development environment
<wolfspraul>
for example with Milkymist One or Xue, I will definitely continue with OpenWrt
<wolfspraul>
aisa: for the wiki & reporter stuff, one thing that may not be obvious to you, but where you could still be very helpful, is that you are an English native speaker
<wolfspraul>
Qi hardware is a very global community, but many of us struggle in finding the right words to express what we mean in nicely readable English
<wpwrak>
as i understand things, jlime is currently a bit without hardware platform. the original devices are all very obsolete. and they don't seem to feel entirely welcome on the ben.
<wolfspraul>
like the email your friend Allin just sent about nostalgia! :-)
<wolfspraul>
ok we need to make them feel more welcome
<wolfspraul>
one idea I has was dual booting
<wolfspraul>
because I am not able to offer 2 types of NanoNotes right now, too much work on the logistics side
<wolfspraul>
the funny thing is, everytime I propose that, when it comes down to really doing it it turns out the patented software is still in
<wpwrak>
the welcome issue seems to be that jlime can't be openly promoted (at the level of openwrt) due to the encumbered software
<wolfspraul>
correct
<wpwrak>
however, they don't seem to be quite sure what it would take to eliminate that concern
<aisa>
this really ought to be an easy thing to fix.  :-9
<aisa>
:-(*
<wolfspraul>
we had the same problem with OpenWrt, but after long discussions OpenWrt understood the situation and introduced the PATENTED flag upstream, which is very helpful
<wolfspraul>
mp3, mpeg4, h.264
<aisa>
I was playing with config.full_system and noticed that flag.
<wolfspraul>
aisa: are you interested in working with me on the wiki/qi homepage?
<wolfspraul>
not today, but over the next weeks/months...
<aisa>
I am.
<wolfspraul>
ah, great! thanks a lot!
<wpwrak>
hmm, too bad rafa doesn't seem to be around at the moment
<wolfspraul>
if I come across too opinionated, shoot me down!
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
we need to try to make it a place as many people as possible feel invited to
<aisa>
I play by the core protocols, which means I prefer doing to not doing, and deciding to not deciding.
<wolfspraul>
nice
<aisa>
It also means I believe the person doing the work makes the final decision.
<wolfspraul>
that means you accept to make mistakes, and sometimes to need to pull back and reverse decisions
<aisa>
so you can't be too opnionated for me, but I won't like it if you need me to do things your way.
<aisa>
but I would very much like to do things we agree on, regardless of whose idea it is.
<wolfspraul>
perfect, good plan
<aisa>
it also means what you said, above yes.
<aisa>
What day and time is it for you?
<wolfspraul>
Monday morning
<aisa>
I am October 3rd, 20:11, which is 8PM.
<aisa>
that is what I thought.
<wolfspraul>
time don't know, let me see... :-) bright sunshine, can tell you that already!
<aisa>
so when I'm in the office tomorrow, it will be Monday evening for you.
<aisa>
this means our best time is your evening and my morning.
<aisa>
as I am not usually online this late.
<aisa>
but am always online early.
<wolfspraul>
10:15 AM
<aisa>
which is the opposite for you.
<aisa>
our best time meaning our best time to collaborate in real time.
<wpwrak>
there's definitely something wrong with the schhist process. lemme upload my version of AVT2 ...
<aisa>
you can always send me an e-mail and i'll be back in 12-24 hours.
<wolfspraul>
no rush
<wolfspraul>
aisa: the second goal after the wiki homepage (which is an ongoing task), are the monthly community news
<aisa>
I actually care about this a lot.
<wolfspraul>
basically as we go through the wiki, and try to distill what is important and how to represent it on the homepage, we will write up what we find, and publish once a month (on the first of each month)
<wolfspraul>
yes I'm working on it right now, doing some plumbing so that the community news can go out via an RSS/Atom feed, into the planet, etc.
<aisa>
I have a question about his.  There is a *lot* of spanish language material on the wiki.
<aisa>
my spanish is very poor.
<kristianpaul>
hola
<wolfspraul>
Carlos students
<kristianpaul>
:)
<kristianpaul>
yeah mostly
<aisa>
kristianpaul: should my spanish get better, or will you work on this with me?
<kristianpaul>
interesting projects around SIE board
<wolfspraul>
the long term value of this stuff remains to be seen, students also produce a lot of crap which they don't care about after the end of the semester
<aisa>
if I have to learn spanish, it will take me some time.
<wolfspraul>
but, like kristianpaul says, there may well be valuble stuff in there
<wolfspraul>
I suggest for this content, we always first wait about a year or so
<wolfspraul>
the students that are just leaving a mess behind, and don't care about their project after they got their grade, well we can't help them, or cleanup their projects
<kristianpaul>
indeed
<wolfspraul>
and for those who want to create something more lasting, or want to communicate it to others, we are there to help
<kristianpaul>
wich is the most afaik :( hope be wrong
<wolfspraul>
but they need to do the first step, I think
<wolfspraul>
otherwise we end up chasing hundreds of students, 9x% of which only care to finish their studies with good grades, the projects are throw-away projects for them
<aisa>
Ok, I feel better about my current level of understanding with these projects.
<wolfspraul>
if you see content with questionable licensing, we should flag and delete it right away
<wolfspraul>
that's the exception to the 'let's first wait a year' rule
<wolfspraul>
so if there are images that are clearly not theirs, and no clear source/author/license info
<wolfspraul>
same with text that is copy/pasted from non-free sources
<wolfspraul>
or long texts that are copy/pasted from wikipedia (better link to wikipedia then)
<wolfspraul>
on the other hand I am not very actively looking for such content, just glancing over, especially the file uploads
<wolfspraul>
it's relatively easy to delete junk later :-)
<wolfspraul>
aisa: ok I'll do a bit more plumbing work on the community news and feeds today, then we can chat again tomorrow
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: schhist not working. alright! let's see..
<aisa>
wolfspraul: deal.  Thank you for the conversation about my commit, I will make a decision tomorrow (your tonight) and fix or not this commit.
<aisa>
and we can talk about the nesw aggregation.
<wpwrak>
still uploading ...
<wolfspraul>
nothing wrong with your commit
<wolfspraul>
I appreciate that you make the first step.
<wolfspraul>
it gets us talking, which is great
<wpwrak>
i also see one strange change in my version. (there are a dozen or so in the one on projects.) maybe that provides a clue.
<wolfspraul>
aisa: I do think you should look at the NanoNote from the perspective of yourself as the user. That's the only thing that will keep you happy and in a position to quickly improve things.
<wolfspraul>
I'll do the same.
<wolfspraul>
if we have enough people with that approach, who still talk to each other, I believe we create a great device.
<wolfspraul>
what do you think?
<aisa>
This very much works for me.
<aisa>
I will also stay in touch with Allin, the other NanoNote user I currently know.
<aisa>
and as I do news aggregration, I will find other users.
<aisa>
and from this be able to learn where I am clearly a NanoNote user and where I am not.
<aisa>
But you are correct in that seeing myself as a user will make me more committed to keeping things going.
<wolfspraul>
for sure
<wolfspraul>
I know exactly what (more) I want from my NanoNote!
<wolfspraul>
we already work in a way that others can (partially) benefit from what we do for ourselves
<wolfspraul>
that's why have have all these tools, wiki, irc channel, revision control, upstreaming efforts, etc. etc.
<aisa>
I will speak to everyone later tonight, I am off to get dinner and then sleep.
<aisa>
I had a wonderful and very useful conversation, thank you.
<wpwrak>
for communication channels, i think less would be more at the moment. i'm sceptical about being able to populate the currently semi-abandoned ones with meaningful content. what makes this worse is that they're the ones that look inviting. so they serve as perfect traps.
<aisa>
agreed.  Less is most certainly more.  I'd like to focus on places we can really contribute value to.
<wpwrak>
hmm. my "ghosts" are real pixel differences. probably rounding errors somewhere, but ppmdiff did the right thing.
<wolfspraul>
wow that looks totally different
<wolfspraul>
even the commits are different
<wpwrak>
the jury's still out on the one on my side. i see differences in the postscript as well. maybe be a real change after all. we'll see.
<wolfspraul>
hmm, I guess the commits are different because ghost diffs are picked up
<wpwrak>
yes, you have a lot of false positives there
<wpwrak>
what's odd is that the same change repeats
<wolfspraul>
oh, the >>> links are also not correct in my version
<wolfspraul>
I'll start with that
<wpwrak>
$! ;-)
<wpwrak>
$1 even
<wolfspraul>
no it's because of ', which is because of {}
<wolfspraul>
can you run the scripts over mmone-jtag-serial-cable?
<wolfspraul>
I'm getting an error in sanitize-profile line 58
<wpwrak>
adding ...
<wpwrak_>
@%$#^! brownout
<wpwrak_>
and it killed the scan, too. 26 hours :-(
<wpwrak_>
the mm1 problem is that .pro wasn't committed. lemme catch that ...
<wolfspraul>
argh. that's bad [scan]
<wpwrak_>
yup. it'll delay completion of the main pcb by about a week. i need to make some pcbs. so i'll switch the mill back to being a mill for probably the rest of the week.
<wolfspraul>
at least you don't suffer from over-capacity :-)
<wolfspraul>
your factory is running 100%
<wpwrak_>
yeah, the scans keep the little machine quite busy :)
<wpwrak_>
already had to oil it a few times. next will be some more thorough cleaning. (i'm beginning to worry about cuttings from milling jobs)
<wpwrak_>
then i should also check the tension of the cable. not quite sure how to accomplish that. (the cable needs retensioning from time to time)
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: Make schhist more forgiving if profile or top-level sheet is missing. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/02bb696
<wpwrak_>
mm1-jtag should be good now. schhist only generates a single commit, but i guess that's the best we can do in this case.
<wolfspraul>
more are coming, I'll try to get this hooked into kicad-libs as well
<wolfspraul>
it's a simple little board anyway, but such tiny projects are also nice to introduce newbies into the system, servers, processes, etc.
<wpwrak_>
you mean to trigger a rebuild of everything if kicad-libs changes ?
<wpwrak_>
yup. "hello world"
<wolfspraul>
for example I want to document the steps from kicad files to pcb & smt factories better, generation of gerbers, ai files, and so on
<wolfspraul>
I'll do that with such small projects first
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
good point, I hadn't thought about it
<wolfspraul>
yes I guess if kicad-libs is updated, everything should be updated
<wolfspraul>
in my script, so far I only make sure that kicad-libs is always checked for updates, and before any other projects
<wolfspraul>
but if it is updated, everything else should be too
<wpwrak_>
actually, kicad-libs should follow the date of the project being diffed
<wolfspraul>
yeah that would be ideal, but maybe for later...
<wolfspraul>
we have too many things already, really hard to prioritize
<wpwrak_>
rebuilding the latest version can be tricky. if it's a change that comes from kicad-libs, it should ideally have no effect. if it does, that may be known and the project just hasn't reacted yet
<wolfspraul>
ok then I leave it as is right now
<wpwrak_>
if the change comes from the project, the kicad-libs update may just be a misordered push
<wolfspraul>
I first fix that >>> url problem
<wolfspraul>
then look into the ghosts
<wpwrak_>
yup
<wolfspraul>
URL problem is fixed, switched from single quotes to double quotes