<wpwrak>
heh, those wildfire threads on the list are funny. "pico c" :)
<kristianpaul>
ah lets use llvm instead ;)
<GNUtoo|laptop>
kristianpaul, hi, tuxbrain is still not there, is it normal?
<wolfspraul>
GNUtoo|laptop: tuxbrain is going into super concentration mode :-)
<GNUtoo|laptop>
ah ok
<wolfspraul>
I think all is fine, he just realized what a time sink chats can be.
<GNUtoo|laptop>
ah but how can I contact him then?
<GNUtoo|laptop>
somebody told me I should talk to them
<wolfspraul>
email? what do you want, maybe we can help you here?
<GNUtoo|laptop>
or rather to the one in charge of the technical aspect(david)
<GNUtoo|laptop>
basically it's about the phone they sell or will sell
<GNUtoo|laptop>
it was an android phone and they wanted SHR on it
<GNUtoo|laptop>
I'm very busy
<methril_work>
GNUtoo|laptop, it's related to GeeksPhone maybe?
<GNUtoo|laptop>
so I wondered if we could collaborate to evaluate the port
<GNUtoo|laptop>
yes
<GNUtoo|laptop>
they point me to the sources etc...
<GNUtoo|laptop>
I evaluate
<methril_work>
then contact them by e-mail
<GNUtoo|laptop>
because I was just pointed to a kernel source
<GNUtoo|laptop>
and even worse, I'm on 3g
<GNUtoo|laptop>
with 100M limit
<GNUtoo|laptop>
but on week-end the limit goes up to 2G
<GNUtoo|laptop>
ok
<GNUtoo|laptop>
I'll do then
<GNUtoo|laptop>
the only problem is that I've tons of mails
<GNUtoo|laptop>
and reading them trough 3g can eat MBs
<methril_work>
GNUtoo|laptop, well, i try to contact them if you want
<GNUtoo|laptop>
ok thanks
<GNUtoo|laptop>
tell him to contact me via irc or jabber
<GNUtoo|laptop>
also tell him that I'm the guy he met at fosdem
<methril_work>
i would like to be at fosdem with them
<GNUtoo|laptop>
s/he/they
<methril_work>
:)
<GNUtoo|laptop>
lol ok
<GNUtoo|laptop>
the one with the bug device from buglabs
<GNUtoo|laptop>
it's pespin who contacted me on #openmoko-cdevel and told me about the geeksphone btw
<GNUtoo|laptop>
methril_work, do you need my jabber account? in case they david doesn't want to use irc
<methril_work>
he's going to connect
<methril_work>
i think i've your jabber from SHR ;)
<GNUtoo|laptop>
ok thanks a lot!!!
<GNUtoo|laptop>
ok
<GNUtoo|laptop>
tuxbrain2, I'll PM you
<wolfspraul>
there is tuxbrain2 ! :-)
<GNUtoo|laptop>
thanks a lot
<tuxbrain2>
hello all :)
<methril_work>
you are wellcome
<tuxbrain2>
I can just stay for few mins
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain2: you are selling non-copyleft 'geeks' phones with tons of proprietary technology and no hope that that will ever change? :-)
<tuxbrain2>
well not selling it actually and I will not selling it until at least it has a GNU/Linux inside :P
<bartbes>
xiangfu: btw, have you tried the 'new' gmenu2x?
<qwebirc66005>
hello, the screen of my nanonote gone blank, the device is still reachable via usb. turning off/on doesn't solve the issue. any ideas?
<wolfspraul>
qwebirc66005: can you login with ssh?
<wolfspraul>
what do you mean with 'reachable via usb'?
<qwebirc66005>
I still can login via ssh on usb
<wolfspraul>
qwebirc66005: hmm. I have seen 1 or 2 cases where the FPC cable between LCM and main board got loose. It could be that.
<wolfspraul>
you could open the case and make sure the FPC sits well in the connector, but it's not for the faint hearted.
<wolfspraul>
there is a connector only on one side (on the side of the main board), on the other side the FPC is soldered in a hot-pressed process, so there is nothing to fix there, but also normally nothing will disconnect there.
<wolfspraul>
have you tried a full cold start?
<wolfspraul>
try that too. remove the battery, unplug the USB cable. then plug the USB cable in, see whether the screen comes on (first should be some u-boot output)
<wolfspraul>
if it doesn't start automatically after connecting the USB cable, press the power-on button for a good solid 3-4 seconds
<wolfspraul>
see whether the screen comes on
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: trying...
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: nope, but you gave me an idea, so I strongly pressed the display base and it worked. there is definitely something wrong with the cable. what do you suggest? the device is brand new (just unpacked...)
<wolfspraul>
he. good that you pressed! :-)
<wolfspraul>
where exactly did you press?
<wolfspraul>
the FPC is going through the hinge on the right side (above the microphone, left of the power button)
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: I pressed just below the display, near the hinge on the center
<wolfspraul>
hmm, center. OK.
<wolfspraul>
is the LCM constantly on now, or only when you press there?
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: it's intermittent, when I press above the mic it turns to full-white too
<wolfspraul>
I would suspect it's the FPC connector on the side of the mainboard.
<wolfspraul>
probably if you would disconnect and reconnect that cable, it will be stable.
<wolfspraul>
too bad. What do we do now?
<wolfspraul>
we have a number of options. If it would be me, I would open the device and reconnect that cable. It's not that hard, but I don't know how confident you are with something like that. Or whether you want your brand new device to also work like that! (which I would understand)
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul:well, I'm an a techie so I think I could try to fix this. any suggestion?
<wolfspraul>
another option is that you return it to where you bought it, we had one such case in the past and fixed it. But shipping a 99 USD device around always makes me cry because sometimes shipping cost can be higher than device costs :-)
<wolfspraul>
sure, great
<wolfspraul>
let's try!
<wolfspraul>
where did you buy it by the way?
<wolfspraul>
this is still not how it should be, and in terms of customer support we should guarantee you a fully functioning device
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: I bought it from hackable-devices.org
<wolfspraul>
ok
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: what do you think causes this ? assembly forgetting to close the connector, so it passes inspection but eventually, the cable falls out ? or do they check for this ?
<wolfspraul>
well I hope they don't mind if we move straight to the guts now...
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: since I personally reflashed every nanonote (there is no other way Linux software could have gotten onto them), no, definitely. It did work.
<wolfspraul>
I have seen one other case exactly like qwebirc66005
<wolfspraul>
it must have worked when I reflashed, but then x months later the screen was dark
<wolfspraul>
I think it's the price you pay for having a fpc cable and connector
<wolfspraul>
qwebirc66005: let's start! :-)
<wolfspraul>
do you have a small screwdriver?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: wow ! reflashed 1000 devices. where do they sell whatever motivation enhancer you took for that ? :)
<bartbes>
fpc being flexible printed circuit? (as I don't expect you to use federal prison camps)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: I will reflash another thousand in a week or so.
<wolfspraul>
first day was 280 I think, then 320, then 380. got better.
<wolfspraul>
it's a lot of fun to work with many devices
<wolfspraul>
hardware is really really interesting.
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: please wait jus a moment, searching for right tool...
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: sounds like connecot not fully close or cable not fully inseerted then. hmm, tricky to test
<wolfspraul>
so I could explain to qwebirc66005 how to lift off the plastic part above the keyboard
<wpwrak>
bartbes: how do you think they make them so cheap ? ;-)
<bartbes>
wpwrak: I always thought they used cosmic radiation to send messages :P
<wolfspraul>
man I hope the qwebirc66005 surgery will not end in a disaster. he is brave though I like that...
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (scans) yeah, mill is busy making boards these days :) not all the time, but often enough that i don't have a break long-enough for a big scan.
<wolfspraul>
-)
<bartbes>
*signals
<wpwrak>
bah, opening the ben isn't too bad :) not having to take out the pcb actually helps. sometimes can get caught somewhere
<wolfspraul>
still on the Ya I think we can improve some things
<wolfspraul>
not those nasty little plastic hooks that break off etc.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (ya) definitely. i'd go for a "no click" design. just simple parts and screws. may add a cent or two to assembly cost, though.
<wolfspraul>
I am even wondering whether we should do plastic on Ya or another material.
<wolfspraul>
yes I agree
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: what materials are you considering ?
<wolfspraul>
don't know
<bartbes>
mercury
<bartbes>
asbestos
<wpwrak>
"keep refrigerated at all times"
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: ok, I dissected the bug, so now what?
<wpwrak>
bartbes: i could offer lead ;-)
<wolfspraul>
dissected?
<wolfspraul>
do you have a screwdriver?
<wolfspraul>
turn the nanonote around
<wolfspraul>
remove battery, unplug USB cable
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: speaking of which ... i still have those 20 counterweights waiting for you. how did the enquiry with TNT go ?
<wolfspraul>
looking from the bottom, you should see 4 screws.
<wolfspraul>
unscrew them, all 4
<wolfspraul>
even though we insisted on them not doing it, one of the 4 screws may be covered under a small white 'do not tamper' label
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: I already opened (and by the way there were just 3 screws)
<wolfspraul>
the one on the left side of the battery (above the battery connector)
<wolfspraul>
no there are 4
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i'm afraid there may not be many alternatives to plastic. metal would be nice in some regards but also difficult to manufacture.
<wolfspraul>
qwebirc66005: look on the left side of the battery, above the battery connector
<wolfspraul>
it may be hidden under a small label
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: well, there is a hole under the label, but no screw...
<wolfspraul>
huh?
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: really..
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: wood would be fun for milling (you can do wood very rapidly so that should be cheap). but then you need thick walls or it'll break
<wolfspraul>
was the label intact?
<wolfspraul>
your device gets more mysterious...
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: yes, as I can see
<wolfspraul>
ok, so when all 4 (or 3) screws are out, turn the device around
<wolfspraul>
wait a sec I'm behind I am following here with mine...
<wpwrak>
fabrication date: monday, after the chinese equivalent of the oktoberfest :)
<wolfspraul>
qwebirc66005: ok now comes the hard part
<wolfspraul>
you need to lift off 1 piece of plastic
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: also, only things you can cast would scale to larger quantities
<wolfspraul>
it's the big piece that is all around the keyboard (and has another piece of metal sitting on top of it, over the speaker/microphone/power button)
<wolfspraul>
unfortunately Werner doesn't have a scan of that piece yet, but maybe you can imagine
<wpwrak>
well, cast, stamp, or similar
<wolfspraul>
since you unscrewed the 3 screws, the only thing that holds it down now are little plastic hooks on the sides
<wolfspraul>
wait let me try this here first
<wolfspraul>
yes I just took it off :-)
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: I already disassebled it, I disconnected the cable too, opening the connector latch
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (scan) this one will be hard. i already looked into scanning it, but there's no way to mount it without the fixture showing. and even then there's the problem that there are few even surfaces. i'll probably have to construct a specific fixture for it. similar for scanning the outside of the bottom shell. but that one's much easier.
<wolfspraul>
qwebirc66005: wow!
<wolfspraul>
well you don't need my assistance, you should become my teacher...
<wolfspraul>
there is actually no need to pull the cable out entirelly
<Ornotermes>
wpwrak: ^
<wolfspraul>
just open the latch, pull it out a little, and push it all the way back in
<wolfspraul>
then close the latch, turn on, see what happens
<wolfspraul>
congratulations for the disassembly btw!
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: waitasec...
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: nice and tidy :-)
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: next step: replace the header with a PCB plus header assembly. like the 0.1" connector i attached here:http://www.almesberger.net/misc/idbg/idbg-soldered.jpg
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain_away: should seriously consider offering this as a hacking kit for the NanoNote (usd_breakout)
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: after that, you'd almost have industrial production quality. the only thing missing would then be the flat cable
<wolfspraul>
qwebirc66005: a word of caution. When you lift off that plastic piece, and also when you put it back in later, please watch 2 things
<wolfspraul>
first - there is a thin piece of metal glued onto it. Some people don't believe it but it is metal.
<wolfspraul>
what that means is if you bend it, you will not be able to bend it back, it will have some very ugly 'waves' or worse
<wolfspraul>
so never try to take that off the plastic
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (breakout board) i guess you'd have to produce the cables. then find a source for cheap and small prototype boards, like the one on the picture. then you'd have a nice package.
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: sorry, same problem, I think the issue is on the other side
<wolfspraul>
second, if you look at the bottom side of the piece of plastic, you see a total of 5 plastic 'hooks' that produce this 'click in' effect
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: add some components and you can even do experiments. "kosmos"-style, if you know them from germany
<wolfspraul>
when removing or putting the piece of plastic back in, try to be gentle to those hooks or they can break off (which is not that bad because the screws still hold everything quite well
<wolfspraul>
qwebirc66005: hmm. can't really be on other side.
<wolfspraul>
you said when you pressed in the middle it worked for a while?
<wpwrak>
hairline fracture in the cable ?
<wolfspraul>
maybe it's a problem there? anyway. sounds like you need a replacement.
<wolfspraul>
well he said he pressed in the middle and the screen came on?
<wolfspraul>
there's some beads there, maybe those have a problem? don't know
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: yes it worked for a while, but not anymore
<wpwrak>
hairline fractures respond to the weirdest things ... you just need to push the cable in "the right way"
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: you should remember the fun we had with the debug cable at openmoko. this one also suffered this sort of fractures.
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: now if I press in the same point, the screen become full-white (what a progress...)
<wolfspraul>
where is 'the same point'?
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: just above the hinge
<wolfspraul>
from the left, you first have the speaker, then NAND, then a few passive components and beads, then the FPC, then microphone, then power button
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: (led) in R(on) we trust ;-)
<wolfspraul>
above the hinge?
<wolfspraul>
you mean on the side of the LCM?
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: I press on the lid , below display, above the hinge
<wolfspraul>
interesting
<wolfspraul>
anyway
<wolfspraul>
you need a replacement! that's what will help you :-)
<wolfspraul>
just reassemble everything neatly, be as careful as possible we definitely would like to look into this a bit more once it's back one day...
<wolfspraul>
for the replacement, since you bought from hackable-devices I'm not sure. maybe the easiest is if Tuxbrain just gives you a new one, and you return this one to Tuxbrain?
<wolfspraul>
is that acceptable to you?
<wolfspraul>
what do you suggest? (since you have the device in front of you and you know what you planned to do with it...)
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: were is TuxBrain?
<wolfspraul>
Barcelona
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: okI think it's my best choice. How I should proceed?
<wolfspraul>
I suggest you email me, then we take it from there.
<wolfspraul>
sorry for the inconvenience, at least you got to do some beginner's hacking on your first day already :-)
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: :-)
<wolfspraul>
from the distance it looks like the second or third device with this kind of LCM problem
<wolfspraul>
in about 950
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: whare are iphone case made off?
<kristianpaul>
i like how it feels
<wolfspraul>
oh my god
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
it's magic!
<kristianpaul>
hahah
<wolfspraul>
it's probably a super special super secret super whatever thing
<kristianpaul>
ah
<wolfspraul>
200 material scientists, phd's, helped by engineering teams from another 50 partner companies, worked together on this magic substance
<wolfspraul>
well but to give Apple credit, they do dig deep
<kristianpaul>
:O
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: too bad they forgot the antenna designer :)
<wolfspraul>
so seriously, I totally don't know, and probably nobody but apple does
<kristianpaul>
ok forgot it
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: lol
<wolfspraul>
and if any of their partners who knows speaks even 1 word, no more apple business forever
<wolfspraul>
qwebirc66005: please email me at wolfgang@sharism.cc
<wolfspraul>
and also, please reassemble the nano nicely, I definitely want to find out more about what happened.
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: there are ceramics cases?
<kristianpaul>
may be something related with alumnion i dont know, any way seems plastic is cheaper isnt?
<kristianpaul>
Aluminium*
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: haven't heard of any. at least traditional ceramics tend to be brittle.
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: afaik, aluminium needs to be milled. so high per-unit cost.
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: email sent
<kristianpaul>
yeah i tought that about ceramics is a shame :(
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: plastic then
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: there probably some fancy new ceramic that don't have such problems. but that's an entirely new world :)
<kristianpaul>
:O
<wolfspraul>
as usual, Apple is seriously investing lots of money and brain power into materials
<kristianpaul>
i like that, i was told from an mechanic eng about that is been used in europe recently in some areas
<kristianpaul>
that = ceramics
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: for the breakout board, are you worried about the cable being too long in terms of the signal?
<kristianpaul>
also re-usable mirenal i was told
<wolfspraul>
what if the cable is just an FPC? not stable/shielded enough? (the pictures show individually shielded round cables)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: eventually, cable length becomes a problem, yes. but i wouldn't worry about that for basic experiments. (led, button, this sort of stuff)
<Ornotermes>
wpwrak: you mean another board to make 50 mils ribbon to 100 mils pin head?
<wolfspraul>
qwebirc66005: didn't get the mail yet
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: going to fpc is what i'm recommending for "serious" production. the ribbon cable on the pictures is unshielded. this is just the basic stuff you also have, say, in IDE connectors (before SATA)
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: yup. should be easier to solder and more stable
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: how long do you think the FPC should be?
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: just solder everything flat on the PCB, SMT-style
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: as short as possible but long enough for handling when you make experiments :)
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: what do you think, 20 cm ?
<wolfspraul>
can you translate that to centimeters?
<wpwrak>
maybe 15. probably not shorter
<wpwrak>
.. than 10 :)
<Ornotermes>
i have 20cm now
<wpwrak>
20 looks decent
<Ornotermes>
i think thats pretty good
<wolfspraul>
what pitch do you have on the other side? (the breadboard side)
<Ornotermes>
2.54
<Ornotermes>
on the pinhead
<wolfspraul>
that's the most common?
<Ornotermes>
(mm)
<wpwrak>
100 mil, standard header
<Ornotermes>
yup
<wpwrak>
also DIP chips have a 100 mil spacing
<wpwrak>
you get a gazillion header types for 100 mil
<Ornotermes>
a importaint thing for cable lengt is how high frequencys it should handle
<wpwrak>
yup. of course, nobody will to microwave designs on a breadboard .. :)
<wpwrak>
s/to/do/
<wolfspraul>
qwebirc66005: can you give me your email address here? still didn't get your mail. just in case, mine is wolfgang@sharism.cc
<qwebirc66005>
wolfspraul: dsplabs<at>dsplabs.net
<wolfspraul>
ok thx got it
<Ornotermes>
i have som capacitace measures now :)
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: and, how bad is it ? :)
<Ornotermes>
wpwrak: not too bad, working on table...
<Ornotermes>
wpwrak: its a table on my page now
<wpwrak>
not so bad
<wpwrak>
and now the inductance :)
<Ornotermes>
i think that's a bit hard for me to measure right now :P
<Ornotermes>
and i think it's a even lesser problem in the real wold since all ports have pull ups
<Ornotermes>
and to send clock signals D09 has the advantage of being between power leads
<Ornotermes>
it was something about linking to the the compiler on the deskop system?
<wpwrak>
ah, you need the toolchain. if you follow the openwrt build instructions, they will generate one for you. then you link the executables (mipsel-openwrt-linux-*) somewhere into your PATH. (or adjust the PATH)
<Ornotermes>
i think i have the binarys but i don't have any alias to the compiler
<wpwrak>
it's a pity there is no simple host toolchain package. in openmoko, we had a tarball with the toolchain and the most important libraries (you need these too), and i think it worked very well. someone should do the same for the ben.
<wpwrak>
you can just ln -s wherever.../openwrt-xburst/staging_dir/toolchain-mipsel_gcc-4.3.3+cs_uClibc-0.9.32/usr/bin/*Â Â /usr/local/bin/
<wpwrak>
when you run the things these, they will remember the include paths in the openwrt tree, so #includes pick up the right files
<Ornotermes>
oh, ok
<Ornotermes>
this is one of the reasons to prefer languages like python :P
<wpwrak>
naw, there's nothing magic about cross-compilation. someone just has to set up the basics.
<wpwrak>
the problem with not having an easily available toolchain is that people may start to develop irrational development models
<wpwrak>
e.g., make their build processes depend on a distribution
<wpwrak>
i've seen this at openmoko, where they used openembedded as their build system. so instead of just invoking "make" on their project, they would feed it into their local OE system and then run an OE build. naturally, with massive overhead.
<alcy>
folks, has ruby been ported (or is present currently) to the nano-note ?
<wpwrak>
OE would take care of the "magic" of doing the cross-compilation, but just in a horribly inefficient way. and of course, many were unhappy about the problems they encountered in this model.
<wpwrak>
(this wasn't purely insane, since some of the work depended on libraries and such that were somewhat hard to obtain or even part of the development. but still.)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: so OE is blobbed , bitbake may be?
<kristianpaul>
alcy: ruby is openwrt repos
<alcy>
kristianpaul, cool..thanks !
<kristianpaul>
alcy: you need supprot about how install it?
<kristianpaul>
support*
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: i personlly see OE kidn of blobbed, comapred to openwrt build process, but damm they have thousands of packages
<Ornotermes>
wpwrak: i added it to the path instead
<alcy>
kristianpaul...no, no...just that I am unable to give time to my nano-note...so, just to be involved with it ( for my sysadmin stuff), wanted to know about ruby...hopefully irb will run on it. :)
<kristianpaul>
k
<emeb>
could someone please define how the term 'blob' applies to OE?
<emeb>
I've always associated 'blob' with proprietary binary code, distributed but not open to review or change
<emeb>
OE seems not to fit into that view
<kristianpaul>
ohh sorry !!
<kristianpaul>
s/blob/bloat
<kristianpaul>
emeb: ^
<emeb>
kristianpaul: thanks for the clarification
<kristianpaul>
emeb: you for point it
<emeb>
no argument that OE is a huge buildsystem
<emeb>
that said - it seems to work pretty well (I use it on beagleboard)
<kristianpaul>
yeah me too on the nano
<kristianpaul>
just the build system is not so simple as in openwrt i think
<emeb>
agree
<kristianpaul>
for example bitbake..
<emeb>
I've also been looking at buildroot for really simple stuff.
<kristianpaul>
wich files?
<kristianpaul>
kristoffer: hey
<kristianpaul>
kristoffer: did you documented how was added support for ben nanonote in OE?
<emeb>
Ornotermes: yes - that HF feedthru on the edges could be grounding issues with your probes. Not necessarily the 'scope.
<wpwrak>
emeb: "could" ;-)
<Ornotermes>
as i said, im not very experienced in scopes... but as always (exept apple) you get what you pay for
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: ah yes, there's something wrong with clk.c . now i get 250 kHz :) let's see where i screwed up ...
<emeb>
wpwrak: yes - deep trace memory, 1Gsps realtime, 150MHz BW for < $1k - seems good
<Ornotermes>
wpwrak: the importatint thig is that we get the same results :)
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: (scope) 2 things to check: probe compensation and ground loop. if your probes some with little springs to attach to the probe head (after pulling off the clip), try once to measure with tese
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: the wire with spring goes to ground, so you have to have one nearby. you should see quite a difference
<wpwrak>
(freq) i probably write to the wrong register somewhere
<Ornotermes>
wpwrak: i check probe compensation once in a while, but it might be the grounding
<wpwrak>
i tried the settings first with "poke" and then updated clk.c, so if i missed a register that already had a good value from poke, that would explain it
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: grounding problems are very common. if you're interested in the topic, you may want to read about resistive probes
<wpwrak>
a while ago i had found a beautiful article about them that compared them with other probe types ... searching...
<Ornotermes>
wpwrak: thanks for the tip, it made _some_ difference
<wpwrak>
good. i'm not sure about the dc offset. maybe the scope needs calibration. that should be somewhere in the menus.
<wpwrak>
you may also want to check if there are any firmware updates. such small bugs are often fixed via firmware.
<Ornotermes>
probably, when i use auto set it often changes but i haven't found any really manual settings
<wpwrak>
on any case, i wouldn't worry about the scope being off by a bit. they're not particularly good at measuring voltages anyway
<Ornotermes>
no i know
<Ornotermes>
there is a reason why i don't just use a multimeter :P
<Ornotermes>
and why i some times does
<wpwrak>
calibration is an item that should be in tje "utility" menu or so. it's a process that keeps the scope busy for some time. you also have to disconnect all probes, etc.
<Ornotermes>
yes, i tried it, but then abain, it might be my cables
<wpwrak>
some scopes also need recalibration during operation. some do this on their own (which can be a problem), others not.
<wpwrak>
maybe check if your ground is really connected :) sometimes, it detached but you don't notice
<wpwrak>
funny that you get 5 MHz. i found why i get 250 kHz.
<wpwrak>
lekernel: if you go over the sample rate, bad things happen :) but that shouldn't be a problem here
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: (250 kHz) hmm, are you sure you got the new file all along the path ? (download, compilation, upload to Ben ?)
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: to check the source, the important line is #defineMSC_CLKRTMSC(0x08)
<wpwrak>
Ornotermes: it used to say  ... CGU(0x08)
<Ornotermes>
wpwrak: i'm quite sure i done things right(line 49 ok, deleted binary by self, compiled, deleted files on ben, compared md5) but its still 250k :S
<wpwrak>
compile for MIPS, then run, on the Ben,  ./poke 0x10021008
<wpwrak>
if it responds with 6, then you're using the old version :)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: I had another question about the usd breakout board. What would be a good way to test the cable? data0-3, cmd, clk, vdd, gnd
<wpwrak>
you mean at a factory ?
<wpwrak>
or to test a cable you just made ?
<wpwrak>
or to test a cable design ?
<wolfspraul>
it's hypothetical (I didn't make a cable), but I mean a cable I just made
<wolfspraul>
which of the wires can be controlled individually from userspace? and what would you connect them to on the breadboard to test. leds?
<wolfspraul>
to rephrase - what is a good test exercise for each of the wires?
<wpwrak>
you can control all but GND. for VDD, you're limited to on/off. i.e., you couldn't send a 0, only 1 and Z. for the others, you have 0, 1, and Z.
<wpwrak>
to test, i would just use a led array and do the the blinkenlight. if you look at the schematics, it's very very simple.
<wpwrak>
if you want to optimize it for testing, do this:
<wpwrak>
connect one LED with the anode to each signal line (data, cmd, clock), all the cathodes together, and through a 100 Ohm resistor to GND.
<wpwrak>
connect one more LED with the anode to VDD and the cathode to the others
<wpwrak>
that way, you have 7 LEDs, can control each of them, and can test the connectivity of all lines
<wpwrak>
(my blinkenlights don't use VDD and GND and use a multiplexing trick to control 10 LEDs with 6 lines.)
<wolfspraul>
he, that perfectly answered my question. so that would be a setup where a simple program could go through all leds, and all wires are verified?
<wolfspraul>
that program does not need a kernel module, just run as root in user mode, correct?
<wpwrak>
just like my bbl.c, yes
<wpwrak>
at some point, we should upset the MMC kernel driver, though. not sure why this hasn't happened yet :)
<wpwrak>
i.e., it should detect that *something* is going on, try to talk to the card, and get a bit frustrated by its lack of success. well, maybe it did that and i just didn't notice :)
<wpwrak>
since, in the DIY case, all the lines are assigned to GPIOs and not the MMC unit, there's little the kernel driver can do, though. except switching off power perhaps. not sure if it does that.
<wpwrak>
when using the MMC controller to output a clock signal, interference of the MMC driver could be a bit more of an issue. we'll see. if all else fails, you can always build it as a module and choose not to load it.
<wolfspraul>
unfortunately I don't think we can just always build it as a module, then we would need two different kernel images for NAND and SD boot
<wolfspraul>
so let's hope it behaves well for now... :-)
<wpwrak>
you could use an initrd/initramfs :)
<wpwrak>
(heh, we solved that something like 14 times ago. how time flies ;-)
<wpwrak>
s/times/years/
<larsc>
you can disable the mmc driver by unbinding it with `echo jz4740-mmc.0 > /sys/bus/platform/driver/jz4740-mmc/unbind`
<wolfspraul>
great, module problem solved...
<kristianpaul>
what cable are you talking about btw?
<wpwrak>
the mechanical details of the uSD holder are interesting. there's a little piece of spring-loaded plastic inside for the locking mechanism
<wpwrak>
now, i wonder if it's possible to return it to its original position when it's been pushed to the rear :)
<wpwrak>
(the uSD slot still works. just doens't click anymore)
<kristianpaul>
likes the cable better than the messier gpio wires i have here :)
<wpwrak>
it's tons better
<kristianpaul>
and cleaner
<kristianpaul>
my ben dint look well after dissasembly
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: planning to manufacture that cable? :D
<wolfspraul>
I want to be careful to not overcommit. Yes I would like to but I don't know when I get to it, really.
<wolfspraul>
good thing it's so simple I can probably give this job to any small street shop. but it's still a lot of work to pull it all off, oversee quality, ship stuff, etc. I added it to my todo list :-)
<wolfspraul>
please don't hold your breadth
<kristianpaul>
ok breading now :)
<wolfspraul>
good
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<kristianpaul>
i think i will make one !
<kristianpaul>
now i will be able to carry my ben on on the pocket with no wires getting out it !! :)
<wpwrak>
we're getting there. first idbg, now uSD. not a lot missing :)
<kristianpaul>
ahh damm the design was made in eagle?
<kristianpaul>
or my kicad got crazy..
<larsc>
I'm wondering if we could find a clean solution for controlling the uSD break out board
<kristianpaul>
i like wpwrak example
<kristianpaul>
ben-blink...
<larsc>
it's pure evil
<wpwrak>
;-))
<kristianpaul>
lol
<kristianpaul>
but have comments !
<larsc>
but it mmaps iomem regions which are already used by the kernel
<kristianpaul>
ouch
<wpwrak>
(clean solution) a kernel driver than cleans up after closing a file descriptor would be nice.
<kristianpaul>
not good
<wpwrak>
larsc: perfectly valid :)
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: about kicad vs. eagle - is there much (any) electrical design in this? what is the difference between blinkenlights and Ornotermes board? I thought it's just wires running out, no?
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: yeah not big deal
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: fpade where you got the source?
<wpwrak>
besides, you can just take the uSD card footprint from mine and add those wires
<wpwrak>
fped ? that's on svn.openmoko.org/trunk/eda/fped/
<kristianpaul>
hey i also i think i can make a small case for it :)
<kristianpaul>
nothing fancy ofcourse
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: yes i got our footprint
<kristianpaul>
s/our/your
<kristianpaul>
oh why there is a fped on qi projects too??
<kristianpaul>
well is good :')
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: I asked xiangfu to look into making a debian package around fped, and he created a project on the qi server as a repository for that. Once he is finished we can send you the patch, and you can apply it to the openmoko svn or we leave everything in the qi git. up to you. I didn't know he would create a public repository for the Debian packaging work :-)
<kristianpaul>
bot sound bad cosidering you have have an already xbusrt tools too for the repositoty
<kristianpaul>
s/bot/not
<wolfspraul>
there are several things. first I want to have a debian package, makes it easier for me to spread the tool. Whether Werner wants to have that or not I don't know.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (package) heh, cool :)
<wolfspraul>
the official homepage for fped is svn.openmoko.org/trunk/eda/fped/ . some places already picked this up, like Chitlech's Fedora Electronics Lab, so why change it?
<wolfspraul>
I think if you googe for fped you also quickly find that url
<wpwrak>
naw, it's invisible on google. the only thing you get is fedora's page
<kristianpaul>
yeah
<wolfspraul>
ok, let's see when we have a debian package first
<wolfspraul>
that's what I am focusing on
<kristianpaul>
i was pointed to FEL at first
<roh>
wolfspraul do you think it makes sense to use the ubuntu ppa system for that?
<roh>
a 'kicad, fped etc, qi-hardware edition' builds ppa ;)
<wolfspraul>
roh: never heard of ppa. I'd rather help getting it into Debian, no?
<wpwrak>
larsc: looks good, yes. that way, one wouldn't have to worry about cleanup, particularly if the application doesn't terminate properly
<wpwrak>
larsc: you only need uint8_t, though. also, would that include power or would you switch it separately ?
<roh>
wolfspraul ppa is the ubuntu 3rd-party-binary-feed way of doing things. source-wise its the same for you. but i think it makes sense to make use of their buildbots
<roh>
wolfspraul also it makes installing unimaginable easy. one just pastes one line into his terminal or adds one into a click-tool. no manual editing of files
<larsc>
wpwrak: ah, right, gnd can't be changed... not sure about power, what do you think?
<wpwrak>
larsc: another use is to emit a precise clock (from the MMC controller). but perhaps that's already too sophisticated for this interface.
<roh>
wolfspraul check the link 'read about installing'
<wpwrak>
larsc: i think power needs to be controllable. could be in the write or via some ioctl, though
<wpwrak>
(clock) i think that's the only MMC that can be meaningfully used for other things than MMC.
<wpwrak>
larsc: if you really want to get fancy, you could also add an interrupt mechanism :)
<wolfspraul>
roh: ok but I still don't understand why I should use this and not just a normal Debian package
<roh>
wolfspraul because i know of nearly nobody who gets a debian feed properly done?
<wpwrak>
larsc: e.g., an ioctl that makes the next read block unless a certain interrupt has happened. that way, one could also select/poll for it.
<wpwrak>
larsc: if you add all this, i can even write the wpan driver in user space ;-))
<roh>
wolfspraul ppa is including signing and buildbots with working environment, not some broken ones which are missing this and that. you get your own vm, with defined conditions, repeatable. building on some devels workstation will nearly always generate broken packages
<wpwrak>
larsc: ah, another thing: pull-ups
<wolfspraul>
roh: sure but we want to get fped included as a Debian package
<roh>
wolfspraul also installing is much easier. you need to paste one line, compared to adding a repo by hand, importing a rsa key by hand etc
<wolfspraul>
I don't want to host my own package repository
<wpwrak>
larsc: and of course input/output configuration
<wpwrak>
getting complex :-(
<roh>
wolfspraul fped is only 1/4 of the needed work. what does fped help me if i cant even get a working kicad in the same config as you guys?
<roh>
without manual building it
<wpwrak>
roh: one step at a time :)
<wolfspraul>
yes
<roh>
wolfspraul thats the beauty of it. ppa allows you to not host it yourself. ubuntu takes care of that for you.
<roh>
and they dont care why you need this or that extra patch. its exactly made for that
<roh>
getting kicad with qi-hw patches packaged will not happen easily, if the kicad guys dont want your patches i guess
<roh>
in debian that is
<wolfspraul>
one by one
<roh>
true.. the work on the package needs to be done first, anyhow (even if i guess most of it is already done)
<roh>
ppa will not help you there. ppa is 'just' the component which make you not need to 'set up your own buildhost for N archs'
<wolfspraul>
I think I understand the Ubuntu ppa system now. looks like a way to create pools of packages with weird hacks and patches easier, remove the need of communicating with upstream about a unified solution. don't like it.
<roh>
wolfspraul wrong.
<wolfspraul>
:-) just thought since it's you I can afford to be a bit opinionated :-)
<roh>
its a pool of special interrest packages, which are not intended for 'the masses'
<roh>
its to enable developers e.g. distribute builds of test-releases in binary form to a bigger poool of testers
<roh>
wolfspraul do you have x86 and x86-64 buildhosts for multiple disto releases at home? i dont. and i dont know any devel who has.
<roh>
also for nightly builds it nice. (same there.. test releases)
<roh>
of course its better to get your patches upstream. if thats possible.
<wolfspraul>
yes that's why packages need to go into Debian
<roh>
debian is not upstream
<wolfspraul>
for new software, get it there and you will have a buildhost
<roh>
and debian will not add your patches if upstream didnt like it for some reason (usually)
<wolfspraul>
for patches of existing software, first communicate with upstream, if that totally doesn't work and you insist on your patches making a new piece of software, fork upstream
<roh>
also getting it into debian will not fix any 'missing packages-' for existing distros. its not that you can get it into stable any way.
<wolfspraul>
anyway I think I got the ppa thing now, thanks for pointing me to it, but won't help with the next steps here wrt fped
<roh>
thats what i dont get. how would debian get us near 'there are packages in the repo which i can apt-get' anytime soon?
<roh>
i dont speak of 'you got a .deb file you can give me'
<roh>
my debian versions of kicad are that old, that they crash and burn if i try loading any of your project files *sigh*
<roh>
different question: whats the difference between fped and cvpcb ? (besides the origin)
<wpwrak>
cvpcb ? maybe you mean the module editor of pcbnew ?
<roh>
its a seperate app
<wpwrak>
you mean, in addition to the cvpcb of kicad, there's another thing called cvpcb ?
<roh>
no.. i mean the cvpcb
<roh>
of kicad
<wpwrak>
cvpcb is for associating components with footprints
<roh>
or can cvpcb not edit, but really only select footprints?
<wpwrak>
fped it for drawing footprints
<wpwrak>
correct. in kicad, you draw footprints with the module editor in pcbnew
<roh>
well.. cvpcb is crashing with segfault for me everytime i press the 3d-button
<wpwrak>
you need wx with opengl support
<roh>
i am sure i got that.
<roh>
since other apps can do 3d fine, also in wx
<wpwrak>
then i don't know
<wolfspraul>
roh: Debian has the 2010 March 14 kicad release in testing and unstable
<roh>
to be fair, i dont have a single debian machine with screen anymore. only servers and sometimes its only some single vm left which is debian.
<wolfspraul>
and the rest is?
<roh>
ubuntu.
<roh>
servers are lts, most still hardy.
<roh>
can't live with the bs unstable gives me. i need a working workstation, not something which breaks because of somebodys tests. testing on debian is still even worse that unstable (same as the last 5 years) since nobody uses testing if its not 'release in a few days'
<roh>
the few servers i got left are all debian stable. some even worse (older) for some reason
<wolfspraul>
who is maintaining the openmoko servers these days?
<wolfspraul>
with Marco Knoebl leaving I am a bit worried about the wiki. he was deleting lots and lots of spam all the time.
<roh>
heh.. nobody? if something breaks gismo and i take a look and fix it. but it looks more and more like old oil-rigs in nigeria
<roh>
'we keep it flying' .. but can't invest any more than the absolutely neccessary time
<roh>
in the end nobody gives us even a beer for it.
<roh>
i am just doing it 'for the community' .. but bigger things like upgrading the wiki, the trac etc to recent versions, or do major cleanups are not really happening.
<wolfspraul>
sure understand. like I said, with Marco leaving I would be worried about the wiki.
<wolfspraul>
he was the last strong spam blocker
<roh>
i did some debian updates every few month where easy... some stuff rots .. like the mail spamfilters (which are prone to break, so they are on hold)
<roh>
hm.. not much i can do (if nobody steps up)
<roh>
.oO(contrary to public believe, admins often dont care much about content, but about the stuff which holds it, and yes. they really need to eat food to survive and pay rent!1!!)
<larsc>
roh: next time i'm in berlin i'll buy you a beer ;)
<roh>
atleast not enough to do more than 'take a look every 2 weeks'
<wolfspraul>
he :-)
<roh>
serious work like back then, when we planned upgrades and so isnt possible in that time
<roh>
i don't know the exact number (and wouldnt name it here) .. but its not more than what i would name 'taschengeld'
<roh>
the servers are more expensive, and they are only a few hundred euros
<wpwrak>
roh: the next time you make it to buenos aires, i'll throw a barbecue in your honor. that should at least satisfy your annual meat requirements :)
<roh>
wpwrak hrhr... looking forward to that (even if i dont know when that could happen)
<roh>
anyhow. dont get me wrong. i am happy that sean still pays the neccessary money to keep the stuff online.
<wolfspraul>
roh: we make it to Buenos Aires. Guaranteed! Have to...
<roh>
wolfspraul if you know a way to pay for the flight and some consulting hours i am with you ;) for sure.
<roh>
didnt even make it to bavaria yet this year. only 3 days iceland.
<wolfspraul>
yeah I know. I see a rush of (legit) orders coming in one day...
<roh>
hrhr.. yes. if 'jobs' are there.. its always the same time and space. and one can barely handle it. other times its 'void' *waiting*
<roh>
weirdness++
<wpwrak>
roh: this is how time for interesting things is created :)